First pitch swinging.
Is there any solid statistical evidence that supports the theory that you should not swing at the first pitch?
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I don't think that this can be supported by statistics as pitchers tendencies factor in as a game develops, and those tendencies are not a constant.
I did better on this one. Instead of a swing and a myth, I think I fouled this one back.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/and-heres-the-pitch/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/and-heres-the-pitch/
JT,
Absolutely is not a myth...especially amongst top shelf high school players that I helped coach in the Junior Olympics in 2001 and 2002.
Only the 1st time through the order...facing a pitcher that you haven't seen in your lifetime.
Batting average for the 1st time through the order when the batter actually was swinging at the first pitch....little over .100.
Pros don't count because they have seen each other many, many times.
Only the 1st time through the order...facing a pitcher that you haven't seen in your lifetime.
Batting average for the 1st time through the order when the batter actually was swinging at the first pitch....little over .100.
Pros don't count because they have seen each other many, many times.
BeenthereIL
Would have to say it depends on the player. If you have a player who is normally patient at the plate - and he sees the perfect pitch right off - you better let him swing.
My son has 4 Home Runs (2 hs - 2 college) that were all lead-off hitter, first pitch of the game swings.
Would have to say it depends on the player. If you have a player who is normally patient at the plate - and he sees the perfect pitch right off - you better let him swing.
My son has 4 Home Runs (2 hs - 2 college) that were all lead-off hitter, first pitch of the game swings.
Keep in mind one thing--the first pitch you see at the HS level may be the best pitch of that at bat
There is a pretty good discussion on how the "experts" recommend a hitter should approach the first pitch when he has never seen a pitcher before on this website under the Hitting thread entitled "Question on the mental approach to hitting"
becuase i hit in the 4 hole right now, a first pitch fastball is what im looking for and if i get it and it looks good then im swinging. rarely happens tho. last night in my first game, of my 4 at bats i got 3 first pitch curve balls and a fastball at my eyes.
Generally speaking since pitchers will throw a strike more than 50% of the time on the first pitch with a high percentage being fastballs there's an advantage to swinging at the first pitch but it depends on the hitter. A hitter who is prone to striking out probably needs to go after the first pitch so he doesn't get down in the count. A good contact hitter can afford to take the first pitch and try to set up a hitting count.
Too many variables, such as type of pitcher, situation in the game, etc. to make a hard and fast rule.
For example, with 2nd and 3rd and no outs or 1 out, late in a close game I want the hitter looking for a first pitch fastball to drive.
On the other hand if the pitcher has just walked the leadoff man on 4 straight pitches I don't generally want the next hitter swinging at the first pitch.
Lots of other examples where the situation dictates whether the first pitch should be swung at. Sometimes a hitter might take the first pitch just to give his pitcher more rest or a reliever more time to get ready.
Too many variables, such as type of pitcher, situation in the game, etc. to make a hard and fast rule.
For example, with 2nd and 3rd and no outs or 1 out, late in a close game I want the hitter looking for a first pitch fastball to drive.
On the other hand if the pitcher has just walked the leadoff man on 4 straight pitches I don't generally want the next hitter swinging at the first pitch.
Lots of other examples where the situation dictates whether the first pitch should be swung at. Sometimes a hitter might take the first pitch just to give his pitcher more rest or a reliever more time to get ready.
KayMart,
In those 4 ABs what happened? How many of those 4 first pitches were strikes? Did you stay off of all four pitches or did you start looking for the curve ball your 3rd or 4th AB?How many times did you have a 1-0 count? What were the 2nd pitches in each AB? Did you eventually get the fastball you are looking for?
Best of luck
In those 4 ABs what happened? How many of those 4 first pitches were strikes? Did you stay off of all four pitches or did you start looking for the curve ball your 3rd or 4th AB?How many times did you have a 1-0 count? What were the 2nd pitches in each AB? Did you eventually get the fastball you are looking for?
Best of luck
I think you also need to consider where you are at in the batting order. A first pitch swinging lead off hitter kills you.
An interesting thing to me is that pitching coaches will tell their pitchers to get ahead, start off with a strike... so as posted above, at certain levels, the best pitch you see may be the first.
Typically you have 2 camps of hitting coaches. ONe wants hitters to be agressive and go at it from the first pitch. Others want you to work the pitcher and look at as many pitches you can till you get the one YOU like and can handle.
Again, as posted above, so many different situations and approaches...
An interesting thing to me is that pitching coaches will tell their pitchers to get ahead, start off with a strike... so as posted above, at certain levels, the best pitch you see may be the first.
Typically you have 2 camps of hitting coaches. ONe wants hitters to be agressive and go at it from the first pitch. Others want you to work the pitcher and look at as many pitches you can till you get the one YOU like and can handle.
Again, as posted above, so many different situations and approaches...
The order of pitch makes no difference....
If it is a hittable pitch, the hitter should hit it.......If it isn't, the hitter should take the pitch.....Doesn't matter if it's the first or sixth pitch.....You are up there to hit.....So do it....
If it is a hittable pitch, the hitter should hit it.......If it isn't, the hitter should take the pitch.....Doesn't matter if it's the first or sixth pitch.....You are up there to hit.....So do it....
pg here are my at bats and what happened.
1st at bat (2nd and 3rd no out)- first pitch curve, ball, fielders choice. rbi.
2nd at bat (man on first)-first pitch fastball, swung at it and line drive to left. LF made nice play.
3rd at bat (man on first)- first pitch curve, double down the line. swung at first pitch and hit it.
4th at bat (nobody on)- first pitch curve, ball. 1-1 count curveball. double to right center.
so i ended up with two 1-0 counts, 2 first pitch making contact. 2-4 2 2b's, 1 rbi. today we played and i went 1-2 with a single and 2 walks. both walks i started behind 1-2 then worked it to full count then walked.
1st at bat (2nd and 3rd no out)- first pitch curve, ball, fielders choice. rbi.
2nd at bat (man on first)-first pitch fastball, swung at it and line drive to left. LF made nice play.
3rd at bat (man on first)- first pitch curve, double down the line. swung at first pitch and hit it.
4th at bat (nobody on)- first pitch curve, ball. 1-1 count curveball. double to right center.
so i ended up with two 1-0 counts, 2 first pitch making contact. 2-4 2 2b's, 1 rbi. today we played and i went 1-2 with a single and 2 walks. both walks i started behind 1-2 then worked it to full count then walked.
Go up there with a plan. If you are zoned in on middle/middle fastball and the pitchers throws that pitch you should be all over it. If you are zoned in on first pitch curve ball and you get your pitch again you should be all over it. On the other hand, if you are looking fastball and get curve take it for strike one.
This may not be true as I get to higher levels, but last year when I played 15 and under, the first pitch was usaly the best. And I didn't start swinging at the first pitch until the coach I had for the babe ruth all star team pointed it out. In the two tournments we played my average went up dramaticly, along with a lot of other teammates.
Way too many people missing the point.
I'm talking about 1st pitch swinging the 1st time you bat against a pitcher you have never seen in your lifetime!
Not a 2,3 or 4th at bat. Only the 1st at bat against a pitcher you've never seen.
In high school, many hitters swing at the first pitch because they are afraid of getting to a 2-strike count, i.e., they are bad hitters.
I'm talking about 1st pitch swinging the 1st time you bat against a pitcher you have never seen in your lifetime!
Not a 2,3 or 4th at bat. Only the 1st at bat against a pitcher you've never seen.
In high school, many hitters swing at the first pitch because they are afraid of getting to a 2-strike count, i.e., they are bad hitters.
beenthere...i have plenty of first swing hits/home runs vs kids ive never seen before. i see nothing wrong with swinging at the first pitch if its a good pitch that you are expecting. thats how i hit. so does that make me a bad hitter? i mean, i only hit .360 as a sophomore in an area where d1 pitchers and players are everywhere. also, i got a 9 on PG, but i guess that was only because of my defense? its not about how you do things beenthere, its about getting the job done. if you can get a hit on the first pitch you've ever seen then great, if you have to wait a couple pitches to get a hit then great. you still got a hit and thats all that matters.
I should rephrase what are coach told us. He said if the first pitch is right there, don't take it, drive it somewhere.
quote:First pitch swinging.
Is there any solid statistical evidence that supports the theory that you should not swing at the first pitch?
Even if there were it's meaningless as although statistics don't generally lie they don't necessarily tell the truth either. If it's in your zone then explode on it regardless of what pitch number it is as who's to say it may or may not be the fattest pitch you see in that AB.
This is not rocket science .... go up with a plan. If you look fastball in and get that pitch by all means let it rip. Who cares if you have seen pitcher before or not, if you are zoned in on a certain pitch and location and you get that pitch why in the world would you not swing. If you are first batter of the game or last batter of the game it makes no difference, you get the pitch you are zoned in on you gotta let it rip.
Gees.
Keep the statistic which I've suggested, folks, i.e., first at bat only, against pitchers you've never seen.
If you're hitting home runs on 1st pitches from pitchers you've never seen, doesn't say much for the pitchers...they haven't learned a thing.
Keep the statistic which I've suggested, folks, i.e., first at bat only, against pitchers you've never seen.
If you're hitting home runs on 1st pitches from pitchers you've never seen, doesn't say much for the pitchers...they haven't learned a thing.
why does it matter so much if you have seen a pitch from the kid or not. we are all playing baseball here. hes got one baseball, and we have one bat. most times hitters use the on deck time to watch the pitcher and pick up some timing. you hit before the game. i really dont understand why you think hitters should be hitting like .100 on first pitch swinging. you say things, and you have not backed it up yet.
Kay...
In your own example, you were swinging at the first pitch and you hit into a fielder's choice.
You are 0-1. In your case, your batting average is .000
I back everything up, having coached a very competitive 15-16 year old summer travel baseball team in 2001 and 2002.
I used the statistic watching other teams play. At one point in time, watching players bat only once through the order...over 4 separate teams and 6 games, the first pitch swingers were 1-37 and 6-94 in games that I scouted during the tournament.
Go to gametracker and watch some college games unfold. First time through the order ONLY, see what happens to the guys that swing at the first pitch. Not very pretty.
In your own example, you were swinging at the first pitch and you hit into a fielder's choice.
You are 0-1. In your case, your batting average is .000
I back everything up, having coached a very competitive 15-16 year old summer travel baseball team in 2001 and 2002.
I used the statistic watching other teams play. At one point in time, watching players bat only once through the order...over 4 separate teams and 6 games, the first pitch swingers were 1-37 and 6-94 in games that I scouted during the tournament.
Go to gametracker and watch some college games unfold. First time through the order ONLY, see what happens to the guys that swing at the first pitch. Not very pretty.
quote:1st at bat (2nd and 3rd no out)- first pitch curve, ball, fielders choice. rbi
that says that i took it for a ball. i ended up with a fielders choice. i had 2 strikes on me and fouled off 2 pitches then hit into a fielders choice that got the run in. i did my job as a hitter.
The first pitch has always been my favorite pitch to hit. Sometimes, it's the best pitch you see all day. If you see a pitch you like, you swing. It's that simple.
BeenthereIL
Gees - you're contradicting yourself here.
If most coaches have the same philosophy that you do - that players should NEVER to hit the first pitch - and then the smallest player on the field steps up to the plate - what would expect the pitcher to throw?
Let's see, probably a fast pitch down the middle. After all, HE knows no one's supposed to swing at the first pitch. And HE knows the small guy at the plate can't possibly have any serious power.
So voila - HR. But of course, only if the coach knows the situation and the player well enough to give him the green light to swing if it's a great pitch.
I am not saying one should NORMALLY do things a certain way.
But a really good coach knows when to give a player the green light and when not to. There are times when knowing your own players - are they patient? can they spot a good pitch? etc. - is just as important as knowing the particular statistics of a situation.
Gees - you're contradicting yourself here.
If most coaches have the same philosophy that you do - that players should NEVER to hit the first pitch - and then the smallest player on the field steps up to the plate - what would expect the pitcher to throw?
Let's see, probably a fast pitch down the middle. After all, HE knows no one's supposed to swing at the first pitch. And HE knows the small guy at the plate can't possibly have any serious power.
So voila - HR. But of course, only if the coach knows the situation and the player well enough to give him the green light to swing if it's a great pitch.
I am not saying one should NORMALLY do things a certain way.
But a really good coach knows when to give a player the green light and when not to. There are times when knowing your own players - are they patient? can they spot a good pitch? etc. - is just as important as knowing the particular statistics of a situation.
Ok, everybody.
This is my last time in saying the same thing 50 different ways.
ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER...ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER....ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER...ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER.
Go to a game where the two teams have NEVER played each other...Watch what the kids do who swing at the 1st pitch NEVER HAVING SEEN THE PITCHER IN THEIR LIFETIMES! Keep track of that statistic and only that statistic. Not the 2nd time through the order; not the 3rd time; not the 4th time; not the 5th time....not the 117th time.
DOES ANYONE READ these posts?
This is my last time in saying the same thing 50 different ways.
ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER...ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER....ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER...ONLY THE FIRST TIME THROUGH THE ORDER.
Go to a game where the two teams have NEVER played each other...Watch what the kids do who swing at the 1st pitch NEVER HAVING SEEN THE PITCHER IN THEIR LIFETIMES! Keep track of that statistic and only that statistic. Not the 2nd time through the order; not the 3rd time; not the 4th time; not the 5th time....not the 117th time.
DOES ANYONE READ these posts?
beenthere,
This is the internet. Of course we've read what you've posted. Of course we are going to post responses that push our own "agendas" and ignore the message in your original post.
Generally speaking you are correct and it is a good rule of thumb, but in HS ball especially early in the season you may end up taking the first pitch of every at bat that way.
This is the internet. Of course we've read what you've posted. Of course we are going to post responses that push our own "agendas" and ignore the message in your original post.
Generally speaking you are correct and it is a good rule of thumb, but in HS ball especially early in the season you may end up taking the first pitch of every at bat that way.
BeenthereIL
KNOW THE PLAYER - KNOW THE PLAYER - KNOW THE PLAYER
The first time through the order - the first time he faced a new pitcher My son always called those his "freebies".
Precsely because he is small, and precisely because no one expects him to have any power.
A good hs coach (and certainly a college coach) won't make that mistake twice. Nor will they make that mistake AFTER you hit something hard. It only works THAT FIRST TIME.
If you want to say that based on statistics it's a GOOD RULE OF THUMB - you get no arguments from anyone.
However, I don't imagine my son is "one of a kind". I'm sure there are others out there like him.
So, all I'm saying is that baseball is about more than statistics.
KNOW THE PLAYER - you could gain a few good opportunities to score if you know your players well enough - and take advantage of it.
KNOW THE PLAYER - KNOW THE PLAYER - KNOW THE PLAYER
The first time through the order - the first time he faced a new pitcher My son always called those his "freebies".
Precsely because he is small, and precisely because no one expects him to have any power.
A good hs coach (and certainly a college coach) won't make that mistake twice. Nor will they make that mistake AFTER you hit something hard. It only works THAT FIRST TIME.
If you want to say that based on statistics it's a GOOD RULE OF THUMB - you get no arguments from anyone.
However, I don't imagine my son is "one of a kind". I'm sure there are others out there like him.
So, all I'm saying is that baseball is about more than statistics.
KNOW THE PLAYER - you could gain a few good opportunities to score if you know your players well enough - and take advantage of it.
By the book, I'd agree with been, it's the exception to see good things happen with first-pitch swinging against a new pitcher. My son's hs coach had a strict rule against first pitch swinging; as this was so widely known, no prizes for guessing what the count was after the first pitch to each of his batters, and that's taking 'the book' way the heck too far.
But the best answer came from Rsctt83, go up with a plan, and IF that first pitch matches your plan, go for it. That doesn't mean your plan is to go for the first pitch, even if the guy's been throwing those highly-recommended first pitch strikes.
But the best answer came from Rsctt83, go up with a plan, and IF that first pitch matches your plan, go for it. That doesn't mean your plan is to go for the first pitch, even if the guy's been throwing those highly-recommended first pitch strikes.
Orlando
I have to agree with you and with Rsctt83 -
You don't PLAN to hit that first pitch - but -
if that first pitch is THE pitch - you don't hold off on it JUST because it is the first pitch.
I like a coach who is not 100% predictable. There is nothing wrong with coaching with a plan - but every good plan allows for a few rare exceptions.
I have to agree with you and with Rsctt83 -
You don't PLAN to hit that first pitch - but -
if that first pitch is THE pitch - you don't hold off on it JUST because it is the first pitch.
I like a coach who is not 100% predictable. There is nothing wrong with coaching with a plan - but every good plan allows for a few rare exceptions.
APARENT--
I respect that perspective but my son taught me another way to look at it --I think I have told this before I think it bears retelling
My son was in a HS game last inning with bases loaded and my sons team losing--bases loaded two out and they need two runs to win-- the opposing team brings in relief pitcher--takes his 8 warmups-- now I expect my kid, who is now up, to take at least the first pitch--NO WAY-- first pitch is fast ball and it is gone for a walk off homer
After the game I asked him why he did what he did-- his answer was simple--- the pitcher needed to get the first pitch over because he did not want to get behind with the bases loaded and me up (my son hit third in the lineup)-- "His first pitch "was down the pike and I jacked it. I may never throw another pitch that good for me to hit"
Bottom line: a lot of things go into the theory of swinging or not swinging at the first pitch. There is no blanket answer
I respect that perspective but my son taught me another way to look at it --I think I have told this before I think it bears retelling
My son was in a HS game last inning with bases loaded and my sons team losing--bases loaded two out and they need two runs to win-- the opposing team brings in relief pitcher--takes his 8 warmups-- now I expect my kid, who is now up, to take at least the first pitch--NO WAY-- first pitch is fast ball and it is gone for a walk off homer
After the game I asked him why he did what he did-- his answer was simple--- the pitcher needed to get the first pitch over because he did not want to get behind with the bases loaded and me up (my son hit third in the lineup)-- "His first pitch "was down the pike and I jacked it. I may never throw another pitch that good for me to hit"
Bottom line: a lot of things go into the theory of swinging or not swinging at the first pitch. There is no blanket answer
quote:as this was so widely known, no prizes for guessing what the count was after the first pitch to each of his batters, and that's taking 'the book' way the heck too far.
The point is: I am not against first pitch swinging. I am against first pitch swinging when you haven't seen the pitcher in your lifetime. Only for the first at bat against a pitcher YOU'VE NEVER SEEN.
What a few games via GameTracker even as we speak. Go watch a game and see the batting averages (only for the 1st time up against a pitcher that they haven't seen in their lifetimes) of kids who swing at the first pitch.
Cup of coffee and a piece of pie to anyone that can refer to one major college game where, first time through the order, kids swinging at the first pitch, average better than 3-10.
Been
this is the HS baseballweb--lets talk about HS situations
this is the HS baseballweb--lets talk about HS situations
TR...
I am not aware of any high school games offered on GameTracker.
My comment is precisely involving high school players and I can prove that with information gleaned from my coaching experience in 2001 and 2002; and, with a continuing series of games that I see each weekend.
Amazing...People just won't admit it is true.
Remember, folks, only the 1st at bat and only against teams/pitchers you have never seen in your lifetime.
I am not aware of any high school games offered on GameTracker.
My comment is precisely involving high school players and I can prove that with information gleaned from my coaching experience in 2001 and 2002; and, with a continuing series of games that I see each weekend.
Amazing...People just won't admit it is true.
Remember, folks, only the 1st at bat and only against teams/pitchers you have never seen in your lifetime.
BEEN
What does Gametracker have to do with the post-- this is a HS baseballweb is it not?
What does Gametracker have to do with the post-- this is a HS baseballweb is it not?
GameTracker....
You're right, people might not know what GameTracker is.
Just thought people might want to see some objective proof of what I've discussed.
You're right, people might not know what GameTracker is.
Just thought people might want to see some objective proof of what I've discussed.
great stuff but it has no bearing on HS hitters---you are talking one level up
I believe in a first pitch in my first at bat situation, never seen the pitcher before, he has never seen me before, I am looking for a fast ball in my hitting zone [for me, in the old days it used to be middle half of the plate from the knees to the belly button] that I will swing at. Anything else I will take and watch the movement of the pitch all the way to the pitchers glove.