Another Rant on Pitchers' Size

Yeah, i like i saw a japanese pitcher who was around 5'10 throwing 94mph

Diamondboy:

First of all...welcome to the HSBBW!

Thanks for your post...you've certainly given us a very important topic to ponder.

I'm looking forward to a lively and informative discussion!

Here is a couple of stories that are very interesting about this subject.

How Tall are MLB Players.

How Tall are MLB Pitchers?

There's little question that tall pitchers throw faster than small onces on average. How many 5-2 pitchers can hit 90?

But the obsession with height goes beyond that in assuming that between two 90 mph pitchers, the taller thrower is likely the better one.

Why? Those pundits can't provide sensible reasons. Trajectory is virtually the same from 60-6. And the close release point argument makes no sense since the throw starts with the pitching hand back, not forward.

That leaves intimidation: Tall pitchers are good because batters THINK they're good.

That's a lot of tall Korean guys! How do these players compare to the general population of Korea? They are, without a doubt, very talented. But I suspect they also rank among the taller citizens in their country. Eight of the fourteen are 6' tall or taller! Are Korean athletes more valuable to their team if they are taller than the general population?

I think that you still have to factor in the ages of these foreign pitchers. I don't have any facts but I wonder how many 27-33 year old asian pitchers are still in top form. I don't know for sure but I would bet the small frames and high torque makes for a shorter career on the skeletal systems.

The Dodgers said the same thing about Pedro---he wont have career because he will break down in no time

Korean athletes are only valuable to their country as long as the team wins--if they win the WBC the players on that team will be National Gods when they get home

quote:

Originally posted by KCBaseball:
That's a lot of tall Korean guys! How do these players compare to the general population of Korea? They are, without a doubt, very talented. But I suspect they also rank among the taller citizens in their country. Eight of the fourteen are 6' tall or taller! Are Korean athletes more valuable to their team if they are taller than the general population?

Actually, Koreans are among the tallest East Asians. For the most recent year in which such data is available (2002), the average South Korean male was 173.3 cm and the average U.S. male was 175 cm. That’s about a half-inch difference.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
I think that you still have to factor in the ages of these foreign pitchers. I don't have any facts but I wonder how many 27-33 year old asian pitchers are still in top form. I don't know for sure but I would bet the small frames and high torque makes for a shorter career on the skeletal systems.

rz1:

This may be true - baseball certainly seems to believe it's true - but that's the problem. No one seems to be able to produce any data proving it's true.

quote:

The Dodgers said the same thing about Pedro---he wont have career because he will break down in no time

TR, I don't know the numbers and am only generalizing. I agree with your Pedro statement but maybe he is an exception to the rule.

It would be interesting to see a pitchers career expectancy in regard to age from the US and other countries and then factor in the height factor. I feel that size may be overrated at a HS and college stand point but as time goes on the skeletal systems of a bigger person will withstand more wear-n-tear and when a team makes a big league investment they would like a piece of meat that stays fresh longer

Wouldn't that be a little like saying that taller people would make better distance runners since they take much longer strides and therefore would be faster and much more durable,(less steps) seems like somebody forgot to tell all those short world record holders. There is no doubt in my mind that the tall pitcher is given a much better chance to succeed, but you still have a lot of shorter pitchers who have been very successful.

Wonder if anyone would take this pitching staff?

Bartolo Colon RHP 5-11 250 Cy Young winner 05, W-21, 2 X All Star
Johan Santana LHP 6-0 205 Cy Young winner 04, W-20, 2 X All Star
Roy Oswalt RHP 6-0 185 Cy Young top 5 last 4 yrs, W-20 last 2 yrs, All Star
Pedro Martinez RHP 5-11 180 Cy Young winner 96, 99, 2000, W-23 99, 7 X All Star
Greg Maddux RHP 6-0 180 Cy Young winner 92.93.94,95, W-318 Career, 8 X All star
Tom Glavine LHP 6-0 185 Cy Young winner 91,98, over 20 wins 5 times, 9 X All Star
Mike Hampton LHP 5-10 195 2nd in Cy Young vote 1999, 2 X All Star
Jake Peavy RHP 6-0 180 All Star 2005
Jamie Moyer LHP 6-0 180 Won over 20-01,03, All Star 03
Scott Kazmir LHP 6-0 190 Young Star
Billy Wagner LHP 5-10 200 Rolaids Award 99, 4 X All Star
Trevor Hoffman RHP 6-0 215 Rolaids Award 98, 4 X All Star
Tom Gordon RHP 5-10 190 Rolaids Award 98, 2 X All Star
Chad Cordero RHP 6-0 200 Rolaids Award 05, All Star 05
Houston Street RHP 6-0 185 Rookie of the Year 05, 23 saves
Luis Vizcaino RHP 5-11 185 Most appearances 2002

IMO, some scout or big league executive noticed a couple of tall pitchers doing well and decided that all pitchers needed to be tall. If you throw out enough BS (even without any data to back it up) some of it will stick and people will like it.

PG

I would take it in a heartbeat !!!!

Always an interesting discussion.

I would rather be 6'2" than 5'9".

Doesn't matter what position.

The only people that argue about size are those that don't have it.

That staff accounts for 11 Cy Young awards and 4 relief pitcher of the year awards.

PG:

I really appreciate the story links and data you've furnished. Which begs the question: Do you hear any rumblings at all among scouts and baseball execs that just maybe this "height thing" with respect to pitchers is a bit overrated?

Beenthere:

Oh yeah! I betcha' I got you beat on circumference!

Here is the rest of the "not so tall" team.

CATCHERS
Ivan Rodriguez R/R 5-9 185 AL MVP 99, 12 X All Star
Paul Lo Duca R/R 5-10 185 3 X All Star
Brad Ausmus R/R 5-11 190 Gold Glove 01.02, All Star 1999

1st Base
Jeff Bagwell R/R 5-11 215 Rookie of Year 1991, MLB Player of Year 1994, NL MVP 94, 4 X All star
Prince Fielder R-L 6-0 260 Rookie

INFIELDERS
Jimmy Rollins S/R 5-8 175 3 X All Star
Miguel Tejada R/R 5-9 215 AL MVP 2002, 3 X All Star
David Eckstein R/R 5-7 165 All Star 2005
Khalil Greene R/R 5-11 210 Young Star
Jose Vidro S/R 5-11 195 Silver Slugger Award 2003, 3 X All Star
Adrian Beltre R/R 5-11 220 2nd in NL MVP vote 2004
Omar Vizquel S/R 5-9 185 10 X Gold glove Award, 3 X All Star
Bill Mueller S/R 5-10 180 Silver Slugger Award 2003
Rafael Furcal S/R 5-10 175 Rookie of Year 2000, All Star 2003
Ray Durham S/R 5-8 195 2 X All Star
Marcus Giles R/R 5-8 175 All Star 2003
David Wright R/R 6-0 200 Young Star
Brian Roberts S/R 5-9 180 All Star 2005

OUTFIELDERS
Ichiro Suzuki L/R 5-9 170 Rookie of Year 2001, MVP 2001, 5 X All Star
Chone Figgins S/R 5-7 180 292 life time BA, plays all positions, led AL in SB 2005
Shannon Stewart R/R 5-11 210 300 life time BA, 51 SB in 1998
Jose Guillen R/R 5-11 195 276 life time BA, strongest arm in baseball
Brian Giles L/L 5-10 205 All Star 2000, 2001
Jacque Jones L/L 5-10 205 279 life time BA

Diamondboy,

Haven't heard any rumblings yet, but I'm sure there are some people taking notice. It's not that there are a large number of shorter pitchers... It's more... Just how much success they've had. There are too many "numbers" guys now days, in order to miss it all together.

I know that I've changed my mind somewhat over the years on this topic! There are still some advantages in being tall, but not enough to make up for 11 Cy Young awards!

To answer your question... Yes I think people are starting to see the light! At least enough to quit discounting the shorter pitchers all together. Probably, take awhile longer though for those that are set in their ways.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
The only people that argue about size are those that don't have it.

My 8th grade son is already 6’ 2”. If he is fortunate enough to pitch in high school, height bias will not be an issue.

You’d rather be 6’ 2” than 5’ 9”. If that seals the deal for you, and if the only people who argue about size are those who don’t have it, why do you say that this is “always an interesting discussion?” Or am I missing the sarcasm?

My son's are 6'5, 6'6 and 6'7. But Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez are better than they are.

I think you could get into this height issue all day long as I have myself on many occasions.
I really wish I had the time to break down height vs. ERA in the MLB. I think that would be a very intresting answer to the way some people think. I don't have any idea what the outcome would be but it might open some eyes.
As far as a pitchers height ... I believe Heart, Determination,and confidence can add about 6" to that UNDER 6' pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Always an interesting discussion.

I would rather be 6'2" than 5'9".

Doesn't matter what position.

The only people that argue about size are those that don't have it.

Lol not at all. i am 6'2 and i say that size doesn't matter.

I would think that in the last 2 decades major league players are much taller than in the 50's thru 80's.
The projectability of taller players makes sense in the era of steroids because you can pack much more muscle on a 6'2 slugger than you can on a 5'8 guy.
I believe if steroids are removed you will see the height averages declining.
Unfortunately the homerun loving crowds that hate 1-0 pitchers duels wont be jammimg the ballparks.

quote:

I believe if steroids are removed you will see the height averages declining.

WHAT UTTER NONSENSE!

Diamond...Yes, you are missing it.

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Good luck to those that would rather be 5'9" than 6'2".

I'm 6'0" and I'd rather be 6'2".

More tall guys can throw hard than little guys. However pitching isn't like boxing where a good big man will beat a good little man. A little guy with a 95 mph fastball is going to get more interest than a big guy with an 89 mph fastball.

The difference comes when both have an 89 mph fastball and people tend to think the tall pitcher still has room to gain velocity. It may be true and it may not. I don't know.

Why rant and rave about the size of pitchers? If your 6'3 and throw 89 you are going to garner more interest than a 5'11 kid throwing 89. Anyone would project that the taller kid will have more room for improvement. That does not mean that the taller kid will always be better down the road. Its all about percentages. There are tons of kids out there that are outstanding players that are not tall athletic looking or physically developed. If you were a college coach and all things being equal and you had a choice between a 6'3 200 lb pitcher that was 89 and a 5'11 200 lb kid that was 89 who would you pick? Be honest, who would you pick? Why?

Coach,

5'11 - 6'3 both throwing 89?

If I were a college coach I'd take the pitcher with the best breaking ball and the one who is the best pitcher.

However, if I was a Scouting Director I'd take the 6'3 kid.

quote:

Anyone would project that the taller kid will have more room for improvement.

Where are stats that show that tall 18-year olds improve more than shorter ones? Extremely tall people have all sorts of maladies down the road. Life insurance companies aren't so impressed by them.

The next step if this height stuff is true is to find 6-5 grade-schoolers and develop them into 7 foot pro pitchers.

Wavehog:

Despite Beenthere's disdain for your point of view, I must agree. Baseball without steroids will once again be a shorter (and closer) to normal game, based more on inherent skill and talent than artificial and unsustainable strength.

My older son is a 5'9" senior outfielder at his high school. Has been a 3 year starter and All Conference performer. The JV's and varsity practice together at his school and one of the JV kids who is not as big as my son was in his hitting group. This kid hit a line drive and commented "That's pretty good for a little guy isn't it?" My son told him, "Look, they don't give you anything for being little, you have to play big." That pretty much sums it up. All those guys that were mentioned at 6'0" and less, they all play big. Some big guys play big, too. It's all about how you play.

PG brings up a good argument by dropping names of great "shorter" pitchers, someone else could do the same with pitchers over 6'3". My question is of the 300+ pichers on MLB staffs at the end of last year what was the average height?

I was just checking sons roster, out of 18 position players 9 are under 6 foot.

Out of 17 pitchers, 3 are under 6 foot. The tallest being 6'3" (2 only). Most hit 90 and above, regardless of size.

College coaches look to recruit the best players for the position.

I think PG has enough experience for us to beleive his statement above.

The statement regarding steroids is ridiculous.

Height is always a bonus.
If you have 2 players of equal talent if that is possible to measure, I would pick the taller one for almost every position. !st base,cattcher, SS ETC.
Why ? simply because they can reach farther to make plays that the shorter player cannot make. Have seen many games turn on a ball hit a few inches out of reach of a players reach.
One game with a I-o lead and a cpuple of base runners on with 2 out. A single hit into LF and runner tyries to score from 2nd base. Catcher is 5'7" tall. The ball thrown to catcher 10' a head of runner. Catcher elevates to haul it in for the tag. Bouces off his pad at top of mitt. A 6'+ catcher makes the play for the out instead of allowing 2 runs and losing the game.
I know that sounds unfair but it is a reality that taller guys give you more range. I have several shots of high bouncers hauled in by tall players that would not be caught by a shorter player. Tall 1b player hauls in wild throws in allmost every game. I have seen line drives hit 10 feet in the air down 1b line snagged by tall 1b player.
I do think that a lot of shorter guys have more coordination and quick arm speed which can out weigh the longer reach advantage in some positions but if all else being equal I would go with tall.

TPM:

Don't be so sure on the steroids. They made bigger better and twisted the nature of the game. And, the fact is, pitcher's have used them every bit as much as hitters, perhaps more. That's part of the reason more pitchers have last longer (into their 40s) than pitchers of previous generations.

If you were to line up 10 young pitchers, 5 were 6'- 6'2" and 5 were 6'3" - 6'5", and all you knew is that each was in the 89-91 range and of somewhat equal ability. What five would you pick to $invest$ on?, btw- none were LH.

I think colleges and pros sometimes have that same dilema. Sure they scout all the guys but when all the numbers are crunched and you remove the highs and lows you are left with this big group that some would call equal. You have to project and make a call. This is where I feel that the height mystique is revealed.