Applying a tag.

Is the ball in the glove?

As you know....Touching a player with only the empty glove while holding the ball in the other hand is not a tag of the player.....

Touching the player with the glove and ball together is a tag.....the ball itself need not neccesairly make actual contact with the player.....think of it this way....a player has the ball in his glove and tags a runner ..the ball is securely in the pocket of the glove does the ball actually contact the runner?....nope just leather....but he is out.....

From your post the operative section is this....." the fielder is holding the ball in his right hand (non glove hand) he puts that hand on his glove and then tags the runner with the glove. The hand with the ball in it is in constant contact with his glove"...........

constant contact, glove, hand, and ball.....I got an out.....

I respectfully dispute that--the ball has to be in the glove--being outside the glove is the same as tagging the runner with the glove and the ball in the throwing hand--I would protest the call !!!!

TR you would be welcome to protest....but I feel you would lose. Below is the definition of a tag... from the rulebook.....

TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

The out may be recorded while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

Nowhere does it state it must be in the glove.....again I would go with constant contact, glove, hand, and ball.....I got an out.....

Yep....got an out. Bring on the protest, I can always use the extra coin

ttt

Everything that has been discussed is in reference to a tag.

I would like to explore a similiar situation regarding a force play. Player has ball in hand, and is touching the base with his glove. Do you have a force out?

quote:

Originally posted by Pirate Fan:
Everything that has been discussed is in reference to a tag.

I would like to explore a similiar situation regarding a force play. Player has ball in hand, and is touching the base with his glove. Do you have a force out?

Yes

It's an out, on a force as long as you possess the ball, you can tag the base with your tongue if you want, and it's an out. They make no distinction between tagging the base with your foot, hand or anything else.

cccsdad....be careful or soon we are going to hand you a blue shirt....

Okay how about the forced runner, can you tag him with the glove while the ball is in the other hand? Works on the base why not the runner?

F6 bare hands a toss from F4 on a double play ball, jumps snags the ball, but misses the bag, as he continues with his throwing motion, he slaps the sliding rubber with his empty glove?

jjk,
You can slap the bag with an empty glove and it be in out, but the same cannot be said with tagging a forced runner. Hope that makes sense.

Concur, I was fishing..

Yes, a tag is a tag, is a tag, regardless if the runner is forced or not.

Sliding rubber?? Man, I gotta get back to day shift.

Still some confusion, the hand holding the ball is not IN the glove, it is pressed against the back of the closed glove and the tak is applied with the glove. I understand if the ball is being held by the hand, and the glove is closed around the hand, it's legal tag, but again, what if the hand holding the ball is not inside the glove rather pressed agains the back side of the glove when the tag is applied. Confusing???

cccsdad,

Confusing perhaps but still a tag if the ball is in the hand and pressed against the glove when the tag is made.

I'd like to add that although this may not meet the true definition of "tag", for practical application I have always called an out when this occurred. (it's not that uncommon) I have never had a coach or player dispute the call based on whether the ball was actually in the glove as long as the hands of the fielder were together when the tag was applied.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
TR you would be welcome to protest....but I feel you would lose. Below is the definition of a tag... from the rulebook.....

TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

The out may be recorded while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

Nowhere does it state it must be in the glove.....again I would go with constant contact, glove, hand, and ball.....I got an out.....

I’m gonna duck in case someone shoots at me for being picky, but I can’t help it. I get all kinds of confused when people as questions about the rules, but don’t specify what rule set they’re asking about.

Piaa_ump, as much as I’d like to agree with you I’m afraid that I can’t. I’m sure looking in the OBR casebook or interps would tell the tale, but I don’t have either. I get the feeling that having the glove between the ball and the runner negates the tag, unless the ball is in the glove. FI, would it still be an out if it was the fielder’s arm or leg between the ball and the runner? I honesty don’t think so, but it’s a good question, at least based on the rule you quoted from OBR.

TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

However, since this is a HS board, let’s see what the HS rule says.

NFHS 2-24-4… A tag out is the put out of a runner , including the batter-runner, who is not in contact with his base when touched with a live ball, or with the glove or hand when the live ball is held securely therein by a fielder. The ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped after the touching, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder.

That one is just a skosh different.

But, just in case cccsdad was asking about an NCAA game, let’s see what their rules say..


NCAA Rule 2 Definitions
Tag The action of a fielder in touching a base with any part of the body while holding the ball securely and firmly in the hand or glove or touching a runner with the ball or with the glove while holding the ball securely and firmly in that hand or glove.

Now that one is more than just a little different. By adding the word THAT, to me it really makes a big difference.

I had an umpire on another website explain it like this to me...

The ball has to be in the hand tha tags the runner.

If it's in the glove, then it's in that hand.

If it's not in the glove, it's in the other hand.

Honestly before reading this I would have said just laying the ball on the glove would have been good enough but I guess it isn't.

Like pilsner said, though, you are going to be hard-pressed to find an umpire that wont call an out when a fielder presses his glove/ball combination to the back of a runner.

Its an out, and everyone on the field knows that. Thats the interpretation.

FWIW, here’s a response from another umpire’s site. Its always nice to get more people to comment on things like this.

I guess I’ll have to just admit that piaa_ump seems to have had it right in the 1st place, and I was wrong. Guess its easy to see why I’m not an ump!

If the tag is made such that the contact with the runner is only with the glove, but the bare is actually holding the ball and that bare hand is stuffed into the glove, then it is a legal tag.

The best way I can explain it would be to say that, in the umpire's judgment, if the bare were removed from the ball once the bare hand bare holding the ball is stuffed into the glove, and the ball would stay securely held in that glove, then it is the same thing as if the glove were holding the ball all along.

The way you describe this tag is the way ALL TAGS were made in baseball before 1955 when gloves were much smaller and did not have a "fold." If you look at a photo of a fielder wearing a glove from made1900 to about 1955, the glove was basically a small pillow with five fingers. There was no webbing, no laces, and the fingers were not joined by a cord as they are today. All catches had to made with two hands. The glove was used to stop the balls momentum and not hurt your hand, but the actual "catch" was accomplished by the bare hand immediately trapping the ball against the glove before it fell out. Otherwise, without trapping the ball in the glove the ball would simply fall out of the glove as these early gloves could not capture the ball one-handed the way they do today.

The term "mitt" we use for a catcher's glove comes from the word "mitten." The mitts used by catchers were just round pillows that hand a flap of leather in the back to slip your hand into. There was no way to catch a ball with a pre-1955 mitt with one hand.

Hence, in the early days of baseball ALL tags were made by stuffing the ball held in the bare hand into the glove/mitt and touching the runner with the glove/mitt.

So basically it's an out, with out really being an out. In other words most umps would call it an out, even though technically it may not be?

cccsdad,

That's what I would call it.

A lot more than 'most', I assure you

cccsdad,

I had a feeling that sooner or later someone would really say what the real truth was. ;-)

The following post seems to make it abundantly clear that its gonna prolly be called an out, even though technically it isn’t.

My reply was, as an SK, all I’m really interested in is the call. Its not my job to question the umps, but only to record what’s goin’ on.

quote:

Originally posted by Dragon29 on another board:
Out, out and out!

Scorekeeper - Technically, strictly according to the rules, this is not an out. That being said, if an umpire calls 'Safe' on that play, he will have a major s%#!storm on his hands.

Try explaining the nuance of the relationship between the glove, ball and bare hand to a manager who saw an out, in a game where everyone [u]else[/u] saw an out - Hell, even the runner is walking back to the dugout by the time you make the call.

He's out!

Move on.

All, I have always prefaced my commentaries as coming from the point of a working umpire and not as a rulebook guru. I am however, a chapter rules interpreter and instructor. The rule book is (whichever you choose to use, be it NCAA, NFHS or OBR) is not the "all seeing" document we would like it to be.....

Much of umpiring is practical umpiring. In this instance, this is an out. and woe be to the umpire who in a real world game who would call it otherwise.....

I cant imagine a HS or higher coach questioning an out call in this instance.

just my .02

I would object strongly and probably get thrown out of the game---tagging the base is one thing-you can step on the base for the force out---tagging the runner is totally different---are you saying you can touch the runner with your foot and the runner is out ?-- NO WAY!!!!

quote:

are you saying you can touch the runner with your foot and the runner is out ?-- NO WAY!!!!

nope not even close.......

my call of an out is based on the original post, a two handed tag with the ball on the glove, all touching the runner. I'm calling that runner out.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I would object strongly and probably get thrown out of the game---tagging the base is one thing-you can step on the base for the force out---tagging the runner is totally different---are you saying you can touch the runner with your foot and the runner is out ?-- NO WAY!!!!

That's not the situation presented here. You may as well ask if the kid at the concession stand can be tagged out from second base.

Can we not stick to what is presented?

In THIS SCENARIO ONLY: runner is slapped on the back/body/etc with two hands by a fielder, ball and glove TOGETHER, with ball on outside of glove (not in pocket) - out.

Just like piaa said.

piaa


read the wording again--you are reading it incorrectly---I can tell you I would win the protest the umpire in question would be back in umpire school


What you just posted is not what you posted earlier---the ball and glove together is not the same as the ball in one hand and separated from the glove


By the way I have won this protest in past years

lonblue


you must be another misinformed umpire--I am on the subject you are not

quote:

By the way I have won this protest in past years

I doubt that.

cccs

it is fact !!!!

Don't doubt it--- accept it !!!!

quote:

by TRhit: you must be another misinformed umpire ... I would object strongly and probably get thrown out of the game

sugar coating things again -
hmm, has anyone ever been ejected from the hsweb umpiring forum ??

quote:

cccs

it is fact !!!!

Don't doubt it--- accept it !!!!

TRhit

So you're telling us that you won an appeal where the fielder held the ball in his non glove hand, put his non glove hand (with the ball in it) against his glove and then reached out with both hands, and tagged the runner with the glove, while the non-glove hand was holding the ball pressed against the back of the glove? No way.

If you hold the ball in your hand and place your hand in the glove, without the ball touching the glove, and then you tag the runner, is he out? If yes, why? You don't have ball to glove contact, and you don't have ball to runner contact.

He is out, and the only difference is this, when you hold your hand against the back of the glove, all you've done is place an extra layer of leather between the ball and the runner. You have no more control of the ball when it's in your glove then when it's not, and you haven't applied anymore of a tag with the hand in the glove than you have with the hand pressed against the back of the glove.
So why would one be an out and not the other????

Its just another misinformed rat, ccdad. Dont waste your time.

What's always humourous is that umpires don't troll the coaches' forums, telling them the best way to bunt the go-ahead run to second or how to use a middle reliever, but they suuuuuuuure are full of advice on how we should do OUR business.

Just like on the field

Guys I will be honest that I did not techinically know the rule here. Knowing it now I will probably protest and argue in certain cases.

If it is a good umpire who I have a ton of respect for and he calls it an out - my guy is out and he is sitting down.

If it is a bad umpire who can be swayed I am going to work him. I won't make a spectacle and everyone on the field and stands won't have a clue what we are talking about but I will be planting a seed to get a call later.

Honestly I can accept it being an out and really don't have a problem with it but if I can gain an advantage out of it then I will argue.

No offence but I think you all have been watching too much ESPN super slow videos - obviously this is a bang-bang play. At the HS level I'm just happy when a man in Blue calls balls and strikes properly - IMHO - the play described probably wont happen in most ball players lifetime on the field.

quote:

No offence but I think you all have been watching too much ESPN super slow videos - obviously this is a bang-bang play. At the HS level I'm just happy when a man in Blue calls balls and strikes properly - IMHO - the play described probably wont happen in most ball players lifetime on the field.

The reason I started this thread was because I was umpiring in a game in which this happend. I called the runner out,
After the game I got to thinking, is that in fact an out? The more responses I've read from experienced umpires, the more I'm convinced I made the correct call. I still don't see the difference between having the ball in your non glove hand, and holding it against the back of your glove and applying a two handed tag, or having the ball in your non glove hand, inside your glove and applying the tag. Bottom line is your holding the ball with your non glove hand, you have that hand (ball in it) in contact with your glove, what's the mechanical difference between the two?

You arent touching the runner with the ball in either instance, and you have no more control of the ball in either instance.
Is the hand part of the glove when you are holding the ball and have that hand against your glove?