Are high school Baseball coaches good role model for high achievers

Hi Wave,

This is timely, because just yesterday, at the 2nd round of states, my son (jv catcher) and his teammates were discussing whether or not asst coach has his PhD in Math, or is still working on it. Thinking about it, I realize that son and the boys he was with, about half the team, are all honor roll students taking multiple AP and honors classes. I honestly see no evidence that there is "something particular about baseball that doesn't inspire kids to think far and high." Given the aspirations of the boys at his school, I'd say a majority of players are actually classic "over-achievers" -- though I've never thought a person could literally over achieve!

Now, if you want to talk political leanings and baseball.....never mind! Too loaded a topic!

First off, don't you have to ask your son, and yourself if he is enjoying the activity in and of itself?
If he really enjoys baseball (or piano or swimming) I'd say you'd do well to support his efforts in a way your family finds comfortable.

Baseball does 'hook' its fair share of participants, but so do other activities.

Role models? Your kid will decide who appeals to him and who he finds to be repulsive.

As far as all those 'dumb' baseball coaches you keep encountering, I'll just have to stare at my masters degree and the 95th percentile entrance examine (Miller Analogies Test) I scored to keep from being offended by your post.

.

Atta' boy skip!

Yeah I pretty much wake up everyday and wonder why I'm such a failure in life. What was I thinking when I went to a prestigious private college in my area when I got a chance to play baseball?

Don't try to picture the whole country as to that's how it is just because that's how it is at your school. It's not the same everywhere. There are some schools that playing for them and the coach is probably one of the most inspirational experiences in a young man's life and then there are some schools that is you play for them and the coach you are wasting your time. But the majority will somewhere in the middle of those two.

I got a couple of questions for you

1) How much experience do you have with the game baseball? Player, coach, fan etc...

2) How much does your son enjoy being on the field?

3) How successful is the varsity team where your son plays?

Reason why I ask these questions

1) Based on what you put I'm getting the impression you haven't been around baseball. That's fine and nothing wrong with it but baseball is not how you described it. Baseball is a great game that has allowed me to become succesful. I have a great education (masters degree), well respected (in KY and starting to build that in NC), have MANY wonderful memories and most importantly helped MANY young men go on to become productive members of society. If you do have experience then I apologize for thinking wrong.

2. Your son might be having the time of his life on that field. Do you really want to take that away especially if he's that competitive in the classroom? Maybe your son hates it then you might need to move on.

3. If your school is successful on the varsity level then boring practices won't last. Once he works his way up to varsity the coaching will PROBABLY get better. But if the coaching is the same on JV and frosh then probably won't be successful.

Overall don't lump the whole sport in with what seems like your bad experience. Baseball is a great sport that can teach you a lot about life. Baseball coaches can be great resources to help your son move on to becoming a man. You are going to find that in ANY sport but there are some coaches who can't get it done. Try to overcome them. Your son will be influenced negatively if you are not there to teach him there is more out there.

Don't worry wave, baseball lovers are some of the more intelligent people I've met. Our HS coach played in college and was all-academic, magna cum laude, etc. and is now a math teacher. My sons college coach was a guy who finished high school when he should have been in 7th grade. My oldest is a card-carrying genius who just graduated from college with a science degree, and has coaching aspirations. My youngest is a 4.34 gpa NHS member, who will graduate with many academic honors. All have played baseball all their lives!

All parents and coaches,

I am truly thankful to you all for sharing your thoughts. My son and I love baseball a LOT. However, the question is how is it compare with other sports, like track field, for a high achiever in high school (GPA above 4.0, and SAT above 700). Can we concentrate on these two aspects (1) baseball vs. other sport, (2) high achievers? For example, a 3-4 hour practice a day in baseball for junior or sophomore is a lot to ask. Could that be more effectively used in track field or swim?

Again, I am not trying to be confrontational but rather to gain understanding. Please continue to share your experience.

Enormously respectful and thankful,

wave

My son also swims; the swim team spends even more time practicing than the baseball team does. Playing sports while maintaining high academic achievement requires alot of dedication and time management skills. What could be better training for success in college and for life in general?

quote:

Originally posted by wave:
All parents and coaches,

I am truly thankful to you all for sharing your thoughts. My son and I love baseball a LOT. However, the question is how is it compare with other sports, like track field, for a high achiever in high school (GPA above 4.0, and SAT above 700). Can we concentrate on these two aspects (1) baseball vs. other sport, (2) high achievers? For example, a 3-4 hour practice a day in baseball for junior or sophomore is a lot to ask. Could that be more effectively used in track field or swim?

Again, I am not trying to be confrontational but rather to gain understanding. Please continue to share your experience.

Enormously respectful and thankful,

wave

First, if you're looking for sports to pay for college your son better be an absolute cream of the crop of the entire country, stud regardless of the sport. Most college athletes get partial scholarships.

Second, I figure the kids playing ball at the Ivies and other D1 programs like Stanford, Cal, Vanderbilt, etc. are fairly academically oriented.

Third, I don't consider my son's baseball coach a failure because he went to a state school for his undergrad and Masters degrees. He left teaching for a while to join the corporate world. He missed teaching and coaching. Some people chose their careers based on motivation over money.

Fourth, my son practices or plays three hours a day six days a week during the high school season. He also stays late and works on areas he feels need more work. In the fall he plays s****r and travel baseball. That's even more time demanding. It doesn't affect his grades.

My son enjoys participating in sports. His teams have great camaraderie. They go out to eat together on occasion. I don't see where any of the time is unproductive.

Parents,

As I read more of your posts, it is becomes increasingly clear to me that my question essentially boils down to this.

What is the most productive use of time (4 hours a day) for a high achiever in high school (again GPA 4.0, and SAT above 700)?

Is baseball better or worse choice over other sports, or no difference?

Are high achievers naturally congregate to a certain sport?

I know it is uncomfortable to challenge the position of baseball in a high school baseball board. But I have to ask and be sure about it and would be particularly grateful to those parents whose kids are high achievers and went through this path.

Please forgive me if my post made some of you uncomfortable. My kid is reaching that cross road and he cannot afford to invest 4 hours day without questioning if he is getting the best return on his investment.

wave

I don't get your thought process here. Are you saying that spending 3 hours practicing track/field or swimming is somehow better or more productive than 3 hours of baseball? If so what's the difference.

I would think that "high achievers", as you call them, can be as readily found on the baseball field as in the pool or running around the track. If a kid enjoys playing a sport what difference does it make what sport it is.

I think you premise is kind of strange. If you want your kid around only "high achievers" try the debate team or ask this same question on the high achiever website.

There are "high achievers" and under achievers associated with every sport at the high school level. There are coaches involved from various backgrounds as well.

The thought that comes to me from reading your posts is regarding the use of "investment". While I feel I wanted and encouraged both my kids to do their best in the classroom, I also encouraged them to play sports that they felt dedicated to and passionate about. I never once looked at them as an "investment".

I don't believe that the brains flock to one sport while baseball gets the leftovers that have to spend hours per day because they have nothing else to do. Most HS athletes (including baseball) are successful in the classroom and in their sport because of many factors.

Also, as far as any dimwitted coaches in the area of baseball. I've known many coaches - here on HSBBW and in my life. They are most likely the smartest men I've known if I had to rank folks in that manner.

I would suggest you continue to encourage your son to excel academically and allow him to chose a sport based on what he's passionate about.

quote:

baseball coaches in high school typically failed in academics in their own high school life, and

That statement isn't fair, and whether you want to offend or not a lot of HS coaches would be offended.

Looking at your posts it sounds like your son is a high achiever.Should he only hang around high achievers?
My sons HS team had a kid like yours 4.6 , he quit his junior year and is at UCLA majoring in chemistry.He will be very successful at it.
The rest of team , some were 3.5 or above, some were barely 2.0.( the 2.0 kids needed baseball for many reasons)

And the fact that many go to a JC isn't a bad thing either. My son is at one. Probably wouldn't be the best situation for a High achiever.
It depends on what is important to your son, how good he is at baseball, how much he wants to play at the next level, how much he wants to focus just on school.
Your decision is for your family to make, I would just have asked differently.
Example: my son is a high achiever and we are not sure if he can play at the college level, so is he wasting his time at HS playing a game 3-4 hours a day, that probably won/t earn him any money down the road.

For many our sons would not dream of not playing baseball, many go to very good colleges and are very successful academically and baseball wise.They are wonderful young men who work hard in and out of the classroom and have excelled.They were high achievers as well.
For me I think the world has got so competitve that many parents think every day has to be spent towards goals and productiveness, whats wrong with beong on a field with friends and just enjoying some aspect of your life?
again your family has to make the decision, every family on here has made decisions with their sons for the best situation for their sons.
Not one is wrong or right comapared to another, just whats best for your child and what he likes to do, what makes him happy? studying all the time, relaxing with friends, combo of both, doing ok in school 3.5-3.8 and then time for friends.
maybe your son can get a 4.whatever and still do those things.Many can, many can;t and decide to compromise and do other things as well.
best of liuck to your son.

quote:

Originally posted by wave:
Parents,

As I read more of your posts, it is becomes increasingly clear to me that my question essentially boils down to this.

What is the most productive use of time (4 hours a day) for a high achiever in high school (again GPA 4.0, and SAT above 700)?

Is baseball better or worse choice over other sports, or no difference?

Are high achievers naturally congregate to a certain sport?

I know it is uncomfortable to challenge the position of baseball in a high school baseball board. But I have to ask and be sure about it and would be particularly grateful to those parents whose kids are high achievers and went through this path.

Please forgive me if my post made some of you uncomfortable. My kid is reaching that cross road and he cannot afford to invest 4 hours day without questioning if he is getting the best return on his investment.

wave

Are you trying to plot your son's athletic future rather than let him make choices and enjoy himself? Since you keep stressing his academics so strongly, I suggest pulling him from sports. Maybe he should join the math club.

There isn't one sport intelligent kids select over another. Some people consider football to be a neanderthal sport. There are football players who have become doctors, lawyers and other professionals. Mike Reid of the Bengals quit pro football. He didn't want to injure his hands. He was becoming a concert pianist. Back in the late 80's a 49'ers player quit football in his prime to attend med school.

It baffles me you think people involved in baseball are dumb. I played college ball. I majored in economics. I have an MBA. Most high school and college coaches have at least a Masters they earned while working at the same time. I know one coach who recruited me had a PhD.

As for attending JuCos, I know plenty of people who weren't athletes, who attended JuCos and graduated from well respected four year colleges.

I don't feel you've challenged the board. I feel you're very uniformed.

Wave:

Why don't you let your son answer the question instead of you, whether he wants to "waste" his time in baseball or any other sport for that matter?

My son is a straight A student (no SAT yet but he is ranked number 5 in his class of 380 kids) and yes he does struggle with the time he puts into the baseball team sometimes. He also struggles with the time he puts into the basketball team.

The questions you ask are not answerable in a global sense. It just depends on the kid; his intelligence, his drive, his work habits, and how much he loves a particular sport. All sports require varying degrees of commitment just like anything else in life.

My advice is to support him and let him decide for himself.

Personally I think he will learn more about life playing baseball than any other sport. "It is a game where line drives are caught; squibbers go for base hits. Bad hops happen when you least expect them. It’s a game where your best pitch gets hammered, and batters strike out on your worst." To quote a favorite author; “Most of all, it is about time and timelessness. Speed and grace. Failure and loss. Imperishable hope. And coming home.”

wave - Maybe this will help you a little.

The NCAA recently implemented new rules about eligibility, transfers and academic progress for baseball players specifically.

Why?

The reason cited was that while baseball players graduate from college at about the same rate as football and basketball players, they ENTER college with higher academic credentials (better HS grades and SAT/ACT scores). The NCAA was trying to get their college achievement to be more similar to their entering credentials.

Personally, I believe there are many reasons that the NCAA did not address that have caused that downslope from entry to exit. But thats another discussion. In any case, they apparently did some good as graduation rates have improved, across the board from the early data samples.

So I don't think your 'going-in' assumptions are correct about baseball attracting weaker students. Other sports such as tennis, swimming, water polo are largely stocked by kids from more advantaged backgrounds and so yes, I would expect they would do better. But I don't think the sport has anything to do with it. A good student should be motivated to excel no matter the sport.

As for the academic credentials of HS baseball coaches? I can only speak from my personal experience...but both of my sons' HS coaches taught/teach the highest levels of math at their respective schools. Both fine men and serious about academics. So for us, no connection there either.

While some may not agree with this approach, my son's high school coach told the players if they become ineligible he will announce it to the team why they're missing. He warned them never let baseball get in the way of being successful in the classroom. That said, he also emphasized time management, not skipping practice. The emphasis on the classroom seems like the right kind of role model to me.

Wow we are getting some unusual questions and points of view.
I don't look at coaches as role models unless they earn it.
Standing around at a practice could mean that the practice isn't run efficiently. Most practices are set up in stations so that players can stay active. May not be enough coaches to run it properly.
What concerns me in your post is that you seem to be caught up in your son's academic achievement to the exclusion of enjoying a sport.
O44 posted the ALL ACADEMIC student list. It is very impressive and only a small percentage of players who had great academic achievement while playing BB. My son's roommates both were 4.0 students. One is off to law school at U South Carolina the other is taking a year off. Last year one player walked right out of college into a $100,000 accounting job. My son had a 3.8 GPA and just had his 1st job interview. They apologized for the low starting pay $60-70 thousand a year with potential to rise quickly to several hundred thousand a year. My son was in a class that was very interesting. He set up a company, ran it and at the end of the year they judged all the participants. There was over 10,000 participants world wide including the most prestigious schools in the world. He came in 84th.
I know hundreds of very bright academic BB players. Yes there are some not so academically inclined guys but that doesn't mean they won't find great jobs. It is a real mistake to equate GPAs with real world success.

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

-- Mark Twain

the guy that drives the concrete truck, that delivers my concrete has a masters degree from dartmouth. i went to the 9th grade, have owned my own business for 20 years. whats wrong with that picture?

as an acedemic under achiever and lover of the game. you never know what the future will bring. try to enjoy the journey, what ever will be will be.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:

as an acedemic under achiever and lover of the game. you never know what the future will bring. try to enjoy the journey, what ever will be will be.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
whats wrong with that picture?

Nothing at all my friend. Nothing at all.

I am so glad that you all are so willing to share. Just like many of you I was a very dedicated baseball parent, but I have to let my son understand that high school is a lot more than baseball and there are many activities to participate and I wish him explore as much as possible. Each activity attracts different type of fans (statically meaningful), and I am in no position to judge the merit of each group. I just want to find out how other parents feel about the impact of different sports, baseball in particular, on their kids.

"Every member of our baseball team at West Point became a general: this proves the value of team sports."
Gen. Omar Bradley


There you go.

Good luck, different strokes for different folks. Our JV team had the highest gpa of any team this school year. and we are conference champs. (We have 2000 plus students and a large variety of teams.) But the most important thing is that my son is happy and motivated. "I am going to play baseball in college," he tells me.

wave

I am trying to figure out where you are going with this or at least trying to go.

First of all I don't believe in coaches being set up as role models and why do you just want them to be a role model for high achievers---what is wrong with the underchievers ? and what, may I ask, is your definition of a role model???

For the record in my neck of the woods baseball coaches are pretty intelligent not that it matters much. They are baseball coaches not math or physics teachers

Wave -

I'm surprised you are from California starting this thread. There are good and bad baseball coaches everywhere. There are also different sizes of high school baseball programs and all different types of students.

I do know from our experience in Texas that baseball was a major plus for my "high achieving" athlete and academic son. If he had chosen another sport, I also think he would have competed with other high achieving athletes and students for a spot. In our area with large high schools, every sport has high achievers that have gone on to play at many prestigious academic schools.

Not only did he learn baseball skills, he also learned time management and people skills. Learning to get along with all different types of people and coaches. Many of the baseball skills he learned from pitching coaches and select ball coaches as well as from different high school coaches.

Why don't you go see some college games in your area - Stanford, Pepperdine, UC Irvine, etc. and look at their rosters to see where these high achievers went to school?

We're looking forward to following Rice, Texas, & Texas A&M in the regionals and following the high achieving athletes that we have know from our area.

TRhit ,

Thank you. I am just thinking what would be a good sport, on average, for a small group of students (assume gpa 4.0 or higher and SAT 700 or higher). Son was interested in a few sports but so far played baseball only for school. I think it is about time to stop baseball and explore some other spring sports. There are so many things to explore in high school. Ideally I would wish one can explore a different sport each year. Let’s face it, 99.9% students will not earn a dim playing sports beyond high school. Why not spend the time to explore more. He may be most interested in baseball now, who knows what he would be doing in 30 years. Why not try the school band, or lacrosse, or track, or ping pong? Why baseball year after year?
I am just thinking. ... and thinking...

quote:

I do know from our experience in Texas that baseball was a major plus for my "high achieving" athlete and academic son.

Wave, Curveball07 knows of which she speaks. Her son, a college baseball pitcher, is currently studying at a school on par academically with Berkeley and M.I.T.

wave

where did you get the 700 SAT figure---if a kid has a 4.0 GPA he better be close to a three part 2000 score

TRhit, 700 is for each subject

My question to the OP would be: How does your son define "High-Achiever"?

My son's HS head coach has a college degree, played college ball, even setting the Home-Run record for his school, and he played pro ball. The JV head coach has a college degree, and is a multi-millionaire business owner. The Soph coach played pro ball. Last year's Freshman coach played (I think) 18 years in MLB and has 2 World Series rings. This year's pitching coach played 22 years in MLB and has a WS ring.

Would you, or, more importantly, your son, consider any of the above as "high-achievers"? I know I would.

Some of the coaches played in the "Bigs", made good money, and had great success. Others played AAA, made little money, yet they still played the game at a level only a few will ever see. Still others played for D1 colleges and that is where their BB careers ended. (And, again, only a few of the thousands upon thousands of HS players will see a D1 college field. Therefore, it is quite an accomplishment in itself.) Yet from the entrepreneur to the guy coaching BB and teaching math, they are each successful.

Personally, I greatly appreciate that such men are willing to pass on their knowledge, experience, and love of the game to each successive class of young men. I would much rather have my son surrounded by men who have worked their tails off to reach the highest level possible (whatever level that may have been), and have him challenged to do the same; than see him sit in a classroom for 4 extra hours and be bored to tears.

Each of my son's coaches stress academics over athletics. Eligibility is the last reason they use. Each player's future...regardless of how it relates to baseball...is the first priority. As one coach said to me, "If I can return to you a better person and a better ballplayer...then I've done my job."

That, to me, is a person who wants to assist as many "high-achievers" as he can. There are very few higher callings than that. jmho

For what it's worth the original poster was last on the site one year ago stirring the same pot.

Hey, why bother with HS sports, just join the math or science clubs, those probably are much smarter kids than the players on the high school baseball team and to your liking.

What's with the, "I cannot help getting worried if son is associated with people who are destined to fail or have already failed in their early life". Please explain that one.

Sons HS coach was a teacher first, coach second. He could not have failed in academics because he had to have attended at least 4 years of college, and most likely more for merit raises.

Son's baseball ability earned him a very good scholarship, and was recruited by some of the higher academic programs in the country because of his 4.2 GPA. He's not a dumb jock.

I am not sure that any other sport could have prepared him more for life's challenges than baseball.

Would son choose another sport, no way. Baseball helped him to think "far and high".

Let's see we have parents here whose sons attended or attend or will attend, UNC, Stanford, Auburn, Duke, Dartmouth, Clemson, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Rice, Georgia Tech, some of the service academies, many D3 programs(where academics is #1). I am assuming most were high achievers in academics to attend those type of programs. You'll even find some folks here whose sons were high academic achievers in HS, but for their own reasons attend JUCO.

Are you implying that baseball players are losers?

Even with explanation, I don't get your point. Perhaps your sons bb ability doesn't match his performance in the classroom, the only reason why you may have begun this discussion.

wave - it really boils down to is discovering what your son has a passion for. If he has a passion for tennis, volleyball, golf, etc he will tend to go that direction. If he has a passion for science, math, drama, singing, etc. he will tend to go that direction. If baseball is his passion....he will tend to spend more time playing baseball, even if that includes some standing around time.

From my experience observing the students involvement in my sons high school, there are high and low academic achievers in each sport and extra curricular activity. I don't think that any sport attracts students that are more academically or less academically talented.

My son is also a good student and scores well on standardized tests but he also has a great passion for baseball. I think being a bright student helps him to also have a high baseball IQ and field awareness.

Okay - Wave is trying to get under our skin - not for real.

I used to hate the term "Gifted and Talented" - I think "High Achiever" might fall close to that!

Don't all of our athletes and students have to be "high achievers" to succeed in sports, school and life? Don't we stress on this board for our athletes to work harder than anyone else in practice and in games? Great attitudes? Respect their coaches? Work their butts off in school? Aren't they all "high achievers" if they are doing these things whether they have a high GPA or not? Most of them play for the love of the game - not to earn a "dime" in baseball!

Wave - have fun in the other spring sports and we'll see you later!

We're just loving our spring sport of choice - BASEBALL with our wonderful coaches. Thank you to all the coaches who take the time and pay cuts to coach our athletes!!

quote:

Originally posted by wave:
Let’s face it, 99.9% students will not earn a dim playing sports beyond high school.

Why baseball year after year?

I am just thinking. ... and thinking...

Perhaps you are thinking too much.

I agree most students will not earn a dime after HS playing sports and most know it, but it can help pay for part of their education in college. They also will most likely walk away with more life experiences, a sense of personal achievement than most college students.

You don't get better at any sport unless you devote your time to it, this is especially true for baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by wave:


I am desperately seeking advice on

(1) Whether or no my sense is right that baseball players in high school on average do not hold GPA as high as kids in other programs.

(2) baseball coaches in high school typically failed in academics in their own high school life, and

(3) the chance of a high school baseball player going to a good college (say top 50 college in the nation) is much lower than kids in other sports (like track field, swimming)

Wave to specifically answer your question....

1. I do not think your assumption is correct. I have not seen lower than average GPA's/SAT's from baseball players. This year, all of our 09 seniors had top SAT scores and high GPA's. Probably higher than the averages in our track, tennis and golf programs.

2. My son's fall baseball coach is a Dartmouth graduate - I don't think your assumption is correct.

3. Your assumption is not correct. My son was recruited by several highly academic schools in the Northeast (including MIT, Navy and Cornell). He would not have had these opportunities if not for baseball, these doors were opened because of baseball, not in spite of baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by wave:
Let’s face it, 99.9% students will not earn a dim (dime) playing sports beyond high school. Why not spend the time to explore more. He may be most interested in baseball now, who knows what he would be doing in 30 years. Why not try the school band, or lacrosse, or track, or ping pong? Why baseball year after year?

True most will not earn a dime but most are playing because they love the game, not because they plan to make a living playing baseball.

Do you think school band, lacrosse, track or ping pong are going to be more lucrative? Does your son have a passion for these sports? If he has a passion for these then he should pursue them and as an encouraging parent you should support his choice, whether it be ping pong or baseball.

quote:

It is a real mistake to equate GPAs with real world success.

Wave:
Do you live in Northern California?

What is your definition of the word "investment"?

Do you realize that the coach also has an investment in his time, his family and his future when he expends his time with the players on his team. He is indeed an "unsung" hero.

When a parent mentions the word "investment" to myself; I "cringe".

For 26 years, over 10,000 players have experienced our Area Code games and Goodwill Series events.
The average GPA is 3.5 and SAT is 1,000.

Fortunately, I made the necessary business "investments" to allow me the time to provide educational and athletic opportunities to pro scouts and players to experience the game of baseball.

My suggestion is to provide your son the opportunity to train on the racquetball court [2 hours daily]; marital arts or the video games, which I noticed is the "new wave".

Bob
<rwilliams@goodwillseries.org>

How about the chess club or the debate team? I would get him away from those low achievers as soon as possible. No way would I want him lowering himself to the level of those other kids. Good luck to your son.