Are the parents always wrong?

Oh man, we can't rag on the 150 pitch count coaches?

What is reasonably expected at that level? I certainly do not expect a usually full-time teacher/part time coach to operate at the proficiency level of a full time coach at a level or two above him. I think some parents expect to drop their freshman off at the high school to be met by Joe Torre running the JV team.

I think parents have to try to be involved in a positive way from the very beginning - help plan team dinners, organize concession stand schedules, offer to help order team hoodies or plan the parent's meeting breakfast (and yes, I've done all of those and more!) The point being, if you are actively doing all YOU can to make it a good experience for the team, it's easier to have a positive impact when you feel the need to criticize.

Here's the hard part - sometimes it takes several years of toiling away quietly before you gain that reputation of being a "doer" and not just a complainer. Many parents don't have all that long to be on a team - 2 or 3 seasons tops - so by the time they figure out that something needs to be said and maybe they are the ones who need to say it, their son's time is over and they decide it's just not worth the effort. So it's tough. But if you're like me and have more than the usual 2.3 kids, you have plenty of time to become that parent that's always willing to help - and sometimes wants to "chat".

Are parents always wrong - no, not hardly. There's plenty of poor coaching going on. But I think parents are wrong when they feel their only role on the team is to stand outside the fence and critique. Whenever parents complain to me about something that they feel needs to be "fixed" I encourage them to talk to the coach - give him a chance to share his perspective. (You might be surprised to learn that he's not as dumb as you think he is!) But the standard answer - "oh, I couldn't do that... my son would suffer". Well if that were the case, my kids would be the biggest sufferers on the team... cuz I ask lots of questions about things that I wonder about! Never had a coach take it out on any of my kids - not one single time. Are we just lucky? I'd prefer to think it's my diplomatic, sparkling personality that makes it hard for coaches to take offense. Or maybe they really like those brownies that keep showing up after games, too!

quote:

Or maybe they really like those brownies that keep showing up after games, too!

A mom that thinks like me!!

Very good and wise thoughts Mythreesons!!

Parents never will be happy, never will be right!
I meant all the parents. It is impossible for a coach to please everybody, his decision always will have some complains as answer. The coach always is right, even when makes mistakes, and a real good coach will have always the respect of the players and the parents, even when makes mistakes. Parents are only that, parents. They are not suppose to judge the coach baseball decisions, they are suppose to teach their sons that the coach, capable or not is the authority inside the lines and have to be respected. Bad coaches are good "real life" trainners for lot of daddy's kids.

Racab,
Nice spouting of the party line. So the coach who destroys a kid's arm to win the "big game" is a "real life" trainer for daddy's kids? There are few if any situations where a parent should bother a coach, not even the those who suck up effectively as one of the parents bragged about in their post even though they didn't realize that was what they were doing. I'll agree with that, but in rare situations a player does have to leave to get away from a bad coach.

So it's ******* up, is it? I thought I was just trying to be a human being and treat the coaches like they were human beings, too, who need the help and support of parents on the team to be effective leaders.

I couldn't possibly realize I was ******* up CADad, because I wasn't. No more than I was "******* up" when I was the room mom who organized all the class parties, and the mom who chaperoned all the class field trips and middle school dances, and the mom who planned the breakfast with Santa and the year end class picnic... not ******* up, just trying to be a positive, helpful person. You should try it.

CADad:
The 150 pitches coach doesn't destroy pitchers arms. As a parent you can talk to the coach (in his office, not on the field) and if he continiuos doing it, then is your choice to take your son out of the team. I don't think there are too many coaches that allow a pitcher to throw 150 pitches. I guaranty you that more kids's arms have been destroyed by parents coaching at LL, than HS coaches. Sometimes, when kids reach HS the damage is already done.

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
The coach always is right, even when makes mistakes, ... Parents are only that, parents. .... Bad coaches are good "real life" trainners for lot of daddy's kids.

????


I am surprised to read this. I strongly disagree.


I don't agree that parents should storm the coach and verbally berate him or anything. But sometimes, just sometimes, the coach is wrong. And the parents (or the kids) are right.

quote:

But are the parents always wrong? How do they/we know when they have a good point?

More times than not a parent is thought of as wrong if it is their kid in the middle, however, if the same parent voices that opinion on an a different kid he is speaking as a qualified observer. As a parent, if possible, it is always a good idea to listen to an opinion of someone of someone you trust "outside the box" before walking the plank.

quote:

And what is the proper way for a parent to pursue change at a local HS?

Stength in parental numbers

This is always a hot topic and I am tired of the parents always being wrong. They just are not always wrong and the coach is not always right. Most parents don't think their kids are the next superstar. However, it always seems like those are the ones we talk about. The parents I know, truly understand baseball, what the kids need to be working on, how long they should be pitching, what to do on a bunt, tag up on a flyball, etc. Not one player regardless of ability has gained anything in baseball ability or knowledge this year. Zip. Are coaches that have been doing this for 3 years at this level supposed to be coaches and not statues. If there was somewhere else, we would be there but there isn't anywhere with the same academics so we stay. I know the summer program will be even worse. My son will improve because of his work ethic and his desire without any help from his coaches but of course they'll get the credit.

Neither parents nor coaches are always right, or always wrong. However, what causes parents to complain more than anything else, in my opinion, is a lack of information. I am perfectly willing to help the team in any way I can, fundraising, working on the field, working the concession stands, whatever. However, in return for that, I ask one thing from a coach. Tell my son what his role is on the team!

I don't want to question my son's role, I don't want to argue about it, I just want to know what it is, and I want YOU Coach, to tell him. Unfortunately, I have run into coaches who believe that the status of a player on their team is a secret covered by the National Security Act. It's really simple. If you want me to support your team wholeheartedly, then tell my kid what his role is. If he's a starter, tell him that. If he's a utility player who will play almost every game, but at different positions, tell him that. If he's a substitute but you think he's got potential to be the starter next year, tell him that.

Plus, if you are going to change a kid's role, TELL HIM. If a starter is now going to become a role player, tell him that. If a role player is going to become a starter, tell him that. If a pitcher/outfielder is going to become a pitcher only, tell him that. Our sons deserve that much, and frankly, we as parents deserve that much, particularly in a program where we are putting in a great deal of time to raise money, care for the fields, sell hot dogs, etc.

I shouldn't have to learn by walking up to the field and hearing the announcer that my kid has become a starter on the varsity. Similarly, I shouldn't have to learn by walking up and hearing the announcer that my kid who was a starter isn't one any more. I give coaches enough credit to believe that they decide on their starting lineup more than 5 minutes before turning it in. If I'm mistaken about that coaches, let me know.

That's all I ask out of a coach. Tell my kid honestly what his role is and will be. If that changes, tell him. Why is this so hard for some coaches?

quote:

have run into coaches who believe that the status of a player on their team is a secret covered by the National Security Act.

That is so true - nice post

The squeaky wheel gets the grease - in this case the terrible coach / parent gets talked about the most.

There are horrible coaches (high school, little league, summer, travel etc...) and parents don't want their kid around them.

There are horrible parents (high school, little league, summer, travel etc...) and coaches get tired of hearing how they are destroying a kid's chances to play DI baseball who can't make a throw from shortstop to first.

When was the last time a thread was about a good coach and what they did to help a kid or a team OR a parent who has helped the program besides the "suck up" work?

We shouldn't ignore the bad stuff but we really (as a society and not just here) need to celebrate the great stuff.

I think the direct answer to the question is no - its how you handle the situation that is the most important. Years back a travel coach told me my son probably wouldnt get a chance at catcher the following year - I asked him why - he told me the other coach's son was a better catcher...I had to do everything in my powere not to laugh. I simply asked him to give my son a fair shot and he caught the entire next year.

My son is now going thru something similar - he really isnt getting a fair shot but just continues to prove himself. It is unfair but I bet it pays dividends in the future.

Great topic! justbaseball sure knows how to push the buttons!!!

First there is a lot of difference in the parental involvement of a 12 old player and an 18 year old player. I talked frequently to my son’s coach when he was 12 but NEVER talked to his coaches after he turned 18. He’s 23 and plays for a coach that I wouldn’t recognize if I passed him on the sidewalk. So things do change over the years. If we’re talking about high school or pre high school, the parent and the coach see this whole baseball "event" quite differently. The coach's goals and the parents' goals are quite different. A problem arises when in attempting to reach his goal; the coach does something that hinders the player/parent from reaching their goals. I don't see this as either party being right or wrong but each individual trying to reach different goals and each are encountering different obstacles along the way.
As a high school parent I supported two people in my son’s baseball ---- I supported my son and I also supported his coaches. Both need a lot of support from the parents. I spent untold hours building the complex, running the website and keeping the official book BUT when it came down to sacrificing my son’s career for the personal goal of his high school coach I stepped in. I didn’t tell him how to run his program but I did tell him how I was going to manage my son. If he could live with that them there would be no problem. If he couldn’t then I would pull my son from the team. I might add this was about over use. This coach later told me that if it were his child he would have done the same thing. So instead of being right or wrong, maybe we should look at this as we’re just “different”.
Fungo

You're right Fungo... Justbaseball has brought up a topic that always brings some emotion to the board. My son has only had one coach for one year that I did not care for. I didn't care for him because I didn't think he was an honest person nor did I feel like he was respectful towards his players (all of his players, not particularly my son). However, I guarantee you that there's some parent out there who liked the guy. Are they wrong or am I wrong? Well, they are of course! LOL There's always another side to every story. Oftentimes, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

If there's flat out abuse or dishonesty involved... there's another team around the corner. Otherwise, I believe your son can work hard to overcome whatever deficit you believe the coach is demonstrating. They are human beings just like us parents... have things going on in their personal lives, have strengths and weaknesses, and most actually want to win their games.

i think being a coach is like being the boss. as a boss i came to realize early on that the people who work for you are going to talk about you. and a group of people talking don't generaly talk nice. i think it goes with the job. i do think that with over a thousand hs coaches in the usa, there are way more good ones than bad. same goes for parents.

No the parents are not always right. I heard parents in my community talk down about the coaches on my high school's varsity team on which i played. Many times the parents don't understand what actually goes on at practices because they are not there and what the talk about is just want they hear. Anytime i would hear a parent downgrading our coaches who had built a great program at our school i would quickly correct them. Yeah we all have our faults but i deffinetily don't see most parents spending an extra 3 or 4 hours after work to help out their kid's high school team and nor do i expect them to, but things would run alot smoother if everyone just knew their role and respected it. Let the coaches coach. That's their job. If we all just got along then we might find things to be a little more enjoyable

I may have seen the epitome of parental interference in my sons senior HS year-- two weeks before his senior season was to begin a political faction in town led by the guy who wanted the job got the coach ousted only to have it backfire on them---the ousted coach was a good guy if a dinosaur but good to the kids and in particular my son even if they did not win a lot---that in my eyes was dues to lack of talent on the team not the coach and to say the least my son was devastated because he was in the process of making the college decision

The AD formed a three person committee to select the new coach ASAP, the committee was the AD ASSt Principal and my son who was team captain---the guy would led the revolt interviewed and the first question asked of each of the candidates was " Why do you think you should be the coach? "---his answer was " Because it has my name written all over it"


Well it just so happened that the football coach was also a baseball star in college----he got the job, the revolution leader got nada--- the new coach was a great guy and at seasons end when the county awards dinner was being held he refused to allow me and my son to drive their on our own--he picked us up and took us with him

Bottom line is that sometimes thing arent going to be what you think they will be and for my son it didnt hurt him because the ousted coach still remained involved and my son became the first baseball payer in school history to get a scholarship to a major Division I baseball program--- and to this day all of us, the AD, ousted coach and last coach are still friends and talk every now and then
PArents --be careful what you ask for !!!

The question was not if you like the coach or not, or if he is "good" or not, the question was

quote:

But are the parents always wrong? How do they/we know when they have a good point? And what is the proper way for a parent to pursue change at a local HS?

And of course, we must be careful with absolutes. Of course, the parents are not "always" wrong. Just as the coach is not "always" right.

And just because you may have a "winning team" doesn't mean that it is due to of the coach. Sometimes a team has so much talent that they win all or most games in spite of a coach. A winning team, i.e., a conference champion, can be coached by a poor coach. And the reverse of that is true, too. A good coach can coach a "bad" team--or one with a losing record due to the talent that is in the district at any given time.

I wish I knew how to pursue a change at the local high school. We tried, but the coach was way to ensconced into the school's football program, with the Athletic Director as the head football coach. The AD, by the way, had been teaching at the school since 1968. We discovered that as long as the football coach was the AD, nothing will change. And he has too sweet of a deal going to retire from the school.

It's been our experience that it takes a while for parents to discover what kind of coach it is. As a freshman or sophomore parent, you don't want to "rock the boat" for fear of being ungrateful. (Believe it or not, folks, there is at least ONE coach whose policy it is to NEVER bring up an underclassman to the varsity team. Never mind how much talent the kid has. This one coach was bumped off his hs basketball team as a senior by a sophomore. Baggage? Just a little.)

So again, it takes a while to discover what the coach is like, and when they finally discover it, the parents feel there is no point to do anything-- they are leaving. And so it goes.

I am curious to learn if anyone has pursued change and the process they took.

To all you parents whose children had (or have) great coaches, count your blessings. Because a truly "good coach" is one.

TR--I didn't see you post because I was typing.

Excellent post.

In reading these posts, I have to say that this has shown me that for the most part, my son has been lucky in his dealings with coaches. My main complaint, as you noticed in my other post, was lack of clarity about role on the team. To be clear, that has not been from his HS coach. We have been lucky in that sense that my son's role on the team was made very clear from his freshman year (he was a JV player and backup varsity player his freshman and sophomore years, varsity starter junior and now senior year), and his high school coach was very helpful when it came to the college search. However, he went through it before HS and on summer teams, and I have seen other players go through that in high school.

I can't say that I have had more than about 5 conversations with his HS coach about baseball in 4 years, because I let my son do that stuff. If he comes home frustrated about something that happens, my response is "go talk to Coach." Luckily, we have one that will talk to the boys. I can see that not all kids have that kind of decent experience with their HS coaches.

This is interesting question so I talked to the coaches at my school and posed the EXACT question. Their response is short and to the point.....and I quote "Yes". When I asked them to follow up their response what they said was something to think about. Our athletic director said "We don't go into their jobs and tell them what to do, however parents beleive they can step into a coaches office, close the door, and express their opinions regarding other players along with their sons or daughters lack of playing time and the partiality of the coaches."
Interesting thoughts.

Looking back and contemplating these stories, I would have to say we were lucky. My son's coach was basically known as a fair man but there were times that people were upset with his decisions. I know the parents of kids who played did almost no complaining and that makes sense to me. There were parents on the team whose sons did not play and yet, through grace these parents were the model of how to raise good team players and more importantly good citizens. These parents never complained about the coach yet some of them probably had something to complain about.

To those of you who feel you have a beef and perhaps a legitimate one, I say keep it in secret. No other parent need know how upset you are. Show them (other parents) only class and grace and you will be rewarded for it. Try and resolve things behind closed doors with the coach. To those coaches who may not enjoy communicating with people - especially disgruntled ones, what harm is there in listening?

Remember that things change. Remember that baseball lasts all summer and some of these people that may be aware of your feelings may not want to be around you because of them. Yes, of course the coach may be wrong. It is very hard to be the bigger person when you feel you have been wronged but I believe the bigger person (in God's eye) always wins.

quote:

Originally posted by allaboutbaseball:

"We don't go into their jobs and tell them what to do, however parents believe they can step into a coaches office, close the door, and express their opinions regarding other players along with their sons or daughters lack of playing time and the partiality of the coaches."

But it goes beyond playing time or lack of it.

And what a coach does or doesn't do (such as having a file filled with showcase invitations or other recruiting tools and not passing them on) can affect the players' futures--that is, where he/she will go to college and the opportunities that each college represents.

It affects scholarship money--not only for athletics, but also the academic scholarship money that each school may offer. Different schools offer different amounts of academic money.... I am also not only talking D1 schools, but D 2 and D3. If a coach does not pass on interest from a college coach--no matter what level--or doesn't fill out (accurately or at all) the coach's portion of the athletic questionnaire, then that affects the athlete's future.

No, we don't march into a place of business to tell them what to do. What they do generally affects their own destiny. They can get fired or "let go", depending on job performance. But a coach (public school coach--taxpayer funded, and a tenured teacher) doesn't generally have the same concerns. And can and does affect the futures of many student-athletes.

Again, I'm not talking about playing time or lack of it. I'm talking about the other items in the "job description" of a head coach.

I would imagine that the coaches who post here do what is required of them and probably go above and beyond. My hat is off to them. But there are some coaches who don't care about the importance of a showcase or the value in spending perhaps 10 minutes in filling out a questionaire, never mind their importance in the life of an athlete.

ClevelandDad--Great post and great advice.

You all make feel great about turning down the HS coaching job I was offered

I know from my own experiences that being a coach is a tough job and you'll never fully satisfy anyone. As a parent that's Ok by me, BUT, when a coach closes all the doors to the program and then things go badly, how can a parent understand the problems and how to help their kid? All we can do is judge by what we see on the field and in his actions. If he stomps around, pouts, screams at the kids and generally acts unreasonable, and the kids are told NOT to talk to their parents about what's happening, and he really doesn't want to talk to anyone, the stands are going to ablaze with speculation and discontent.

Yes parents are always wrong.
I also have seen parents gang up on a good coach and get him ousted. Like TR said it rarely turns out better.
In one case at Minor Mosquito ,d isguntled parents who had players in rookie ball allstar managed to force out the coach for the MS year. The guy who took over was a friend of the coordinator and accused the former coach of picking his osn's friends. His son was cut. When he took over he cut 9 of the best players from the previous year. The team went from winning 80% of their games to 5% and thye players were all his son's friends and were not good ball players. My son was carded as a call up. When the team was part way through the season the powers that be started to se thye terrible mistake. The president asked the coach to bring my son up to help. The parents and the coach went balistic. One game the team was getting mercied and they tried to reenter a pitcher and he had to sit out an inning. I heard the coach in ear shot of my son say the only one they had left was my son. He went in and struck out the side. He then resummed his bench position for the rest of the game. After the team was mercied the parents left and my wife who sat in the car unnoticed ( she would not watch the game) heard parents who we had known for years complaining about our son being brought up.
The coach was a new coach because the problem coach was fired for disobeying an order from the President to bring my son up. The replacement was a good coach and talked to us and explained his problem that the parents refused to allow their sons to play if my son played. One player who they did keep was so embarssed she complained to Ontario Baseball and was also black balled by these parents. They were at a tournament and said if he played they woulfn't.
Parents should stay out of it.

TRHit...you have a PM

I go by the ol' saying " where theres smoke, there might be fire ".

Grumbling, complaining, disatifaction, are all warning signs that perhaps something is wrong. Doesnt necessarily mean something is wrong, but probably warrants looking into.

The problem I have is when parents/players are expressing concerns and the AD takes no action to investigate, assuming parents/players are simply unnecessarily whining.

It took an entire summer and season to get our AD to FINALLY take notice of an abusive coach. Cold hard evidence was presented finally by some very savey players. In the end, Coach was fired and expelled from the district. If only the AD had acted earlier, we could have spared our kids from the abuse.
Quite a learning experience, but such a shame.

Interesting posts from everyone - we have had our share of good/bad coaches but I always tell my kids
1. There are good/bad bosses and co-workers in the real world - get used to it
2. Life is not fair - get used to it.
They need to learn to deal with difficult people. If they are being abused then I will get involved but not otherwise.

All good posts from both sides.

The fact that nobody is perfect (both coaches and parents), tells me that either can be wrong (or right).

I am always willing to give a coach the benefit of the doubt. I coached 16 YO in select ball so I know how it feels when people complain. I try to let my son handle his "problems" with the coach.

Obviously there are times when further steps are needed when things get really out of hand.

My son is in a "situation" right now, that I am hoping will work itself out, or he will work it out on his own. It is difficult.

We will all know that there are good and bad throughout the world. To me, the difference is that in a job, or college, or sports past high school, you can quite (demand a trade) and go somewhere else. In high school you are stuck.

Sometimes the HighSchool Team just doesn't have the talent to compete with everyone else. If a bad coach gets all the best prospects then he is labeled a great coach. If a good coach inherits some bad talent for a while, well you know the rest.

I find it funny because if you really look at it it is basically Little League all over again, just magnified 10 times.

My current situation is interesting because I am not seeing alot of talent on the Varsity level. But the influx of talent coming in this year and next year will turn the program around. Bottomline , in my opinion, talent will win ball games. Not bad coaches and overzealous parents.

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
We will all know that there are good and bad throughout the world. To me, the difference is that in a job, or college, or sports past high school, you can quite (demand a trade) and go somewhere else. In high school you are stuck.

Stuck is a good word. Of course, you are excluding professional baseball for the first 5 years of a career with a MLB affiated team though.

Racab,
I think you have agreed with me. There are times when parents are right. The proper approach is not to go after the coach. The proper approach if the situation is that bad is to take the player out of the program. However, one also has to understand that there are consequences to be paid if one leaves a program.

The only situation in which a parent MUST intervene is in the case where a coach is clearly risking significant long term damage to a player's health, which is the situation Fungo referred to.

As far as winning or losing goes I believe a coach can consistently produce winning teams without being a good coach by simply being a good recruiter (by recruiting I don't mean anything illegal in most cases). I do believe that most coaches who produce winning teams year in and year out are good and usually very good coaches. The exception is pretty rare.

The measure of a coach is how effective he is with the talent he has at hand at winning and at sending players to the next level and determining the talent at hand is a very subjective matter.

mythreesons,
The very definition of how to suck up, no matter how humorously you tried to pass it off.

quote:

I'd prefer to think it's my diplomatic, sparkling personality that makes it hard for coaches to take offense. Or maybe they really like those brownies that keep showing up after games, too!

CADad
You are right, my first post was too absolute. Nonbody is right 100% of the times. The important thingh here is the right approach to solve the situation. I was thinking about coach decisions on the field, thanks for let me see the difference.