Please tone down some of the nagative and personal comments.
quote:Originally posted by DBAT 18 GM:
Or, my personal favorite:
"You just got home from a doubleheader - why do you have to rehash it for three hours on the phone with the coaches?"
Ahhhhh...but it's baseball.
I think you are trying to reference the Dire Straits. 'Money for nuthin', and the chicks for free.'quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
Hows the song go?
NOTHIN FOR FREE...
I never intended for my original post to be a bash of Area Code. I stated information that I have direct knowledge of as well as some observations.quote:All I'm saying is don't bash Area Code.
I will say again that I think kids should attend the AC tryout if they can. Go and bust your tail but temper your enthusiasm about being given an invitation to the event in August. Only a few will be selected and the majority of those have already been decided upon whether they choose to attend the tryout or not. Those kids are currently being recruited to go to the August AC event just like I recruit kids to play for our summer team. One big name committed to going to the event may entice another big name to commit to go and that leads to a marked increase in legitimacy and interest of the event and so on and so on....
If you go to the workout with the expressed desire of using it for exposure purposes and can set yourself apart you may create an opportunity for yourself. But also realize that there are many avenues to create the same opportunity....not just a one-day tryout.
I purposely left our DBAT 18 schedule open on June 13th so that some of our players could go to the tryout. They'll most likely go down to Waco, bide their time patiently awaiting their turn, display their talents and then be back on the field with us the next day to play in a baseball game. A game in which there will undoubtedly be scouts and college coaches in attendance.
The cycle continues and life goes on.
It is what it is.
This topic always elicits passionate responses and opinions.
KG preaches very strongly against showcase events for aspiring pro/college baseball players. The team is more important than the individual. The good players will be seen if they are on the HS & summer select team. (As an aside, this is the same fallacy that HS coaches use to argue against select teams.)
Vance is a strong proponent of the showcase, Area Code in particular. Even going so far as to make the mistake of insulting the men & businesses that run select organizations.
Most likely, the truth is that neither of these extreme positions is the correct path for every player who wants to play baseball beyond HS. My own son played for 3 of the major select programs in Dallas. One of those programs forbids players from attending showcase events, though some pitchers manage to work around that restriction. In the summer following my son's Jr year John (Knights) was very cooperative in allowing son to attend 2 camps. Had my son not been seen playing at the Stanford camp he would not be attending Dartmouth. Once seen at camp, college coaches called past/present summer coaches & HS coach for opinions & background on son.
My opinion is that baseball players need both avenues of exposure. Showcases serve their purpose, as do summer teams. The best HS summer programs I have encountered make allowances for players to attend a reasonable number of showcases. These events increase the number of scouts that see a player and increase the number of potential destinations (colleges) for that player.
KG preaches very strongly against showcase events for aspiring pro/college baseball players. The team is more important than the individual. The good players will be seen if they are on the HS & summer select team. (As an aside, this is the same fallacy that HS coaches use to argue against select teams.)
Vance is a strong proponent of the showcase, Area Code in particular. Even going so far as to make the mistake of insulting the men & businesses that run select organizations.
Most likely, the truth is that neither of these extreme positions is the correct path for every player who wants to play baseball beyond HS. My own son played for 3 of the major select programs in Dallas. One of those programs forbids players from attending showcase events, though some pitchers manage to work around that restriction. In the summer following my son's Jr year John (Knights) was very cooperative in allowing son to attend 2 camps. Had my son not been seen playing at the Stanford camp he would not be attending Dartmouth. Once seen at camp, college coaches called past/present summer coaches & HS coach for opinions & background on son.
My opinion is that baseball players need both avenues of exposure. Showcases serve their purpose, as do summer teams. The best HS summer programs I have encountered make allowances for players to attend a reasonable number of showcases. These events increase the number of scouts that see a player and increase the number of potential destinations (colleges) for that player.
quote:Originally posted by Vance34:
Old Pitcher
They is the instructors at the indoor facility.
What makes me say/ think this.
Well can you tell me where ALL this players are they are instructing? Texas has less prospects for 07 than Nevada does. NOW THAT IS SAD!
Vance,
Are you talking about a particular facility or all facilities in general?
No one know how the Texas team performed last year? Hear they got killed. Is that true?
quote:Originally posted by dbg_fan:
KG preaches very strongly against showcase events for aspiring pro/college baseball players.
Incorrect Statement
quote:The team is more important than the individual.
Correct statement.
Since the game doesn't start till 8:00, I'll throw my worthless 2 cents in.
My kid has been playing select in the area for years, and for a few different teams. There has been only 1 team where I thought that the team was only in it for the money. For the most part, I really doubt the idea that coaches and gms are getting rich off select. On MANY occasions, if the coach thought the kid was willing to put in the work, the coach would meet at the facility, we'd offer to pay, he'd shake his head. There is no way, without select, my son would have 1/2 the talent he has today without the help of these men.
My kid has been playing select in the area for years, and for a few different teams. There has been only 1 team where I thought that the team was only in it for the money. For the most part, I really doubt the idea that coaches and gms are getting rich off select. On MANY occasions, if the coach thought the kid was willing to put in the work, the coach would meet at the facility, we'd offer to pay, he'd shake his head. There is no way, without select, my son would have 1/2 the talent he has today without the help of these men.
I usually just read these posts and sometimes learn and sometimes laugh. But when someone starts bashing DBAT, I will have to step up. DBAT and their staff have gone above and beyond in helping my son learn the game of baseball. Not just the "skills" but also about how to play the game with character and good sportsmanship. Cade,Kermit,and Kyle as well as the various coaches through the years have all earned my respect and appreciation. We are from a small town in East Texas with a less than stellar high school team. Any and every penny I have spent, which is nowhere close to what Vance is stating, is well worth it. We have met some great people in DBAT and as well as the other kids and their parents. We realize what the AC tryouts are and have no great expectations other than it is another chance to get on a ballfield and get after it. DBAT has always been supportive and honest with my son and they have given him chances that would not have been possible any where else.
Vance-
You are one very ignorant person when it comes to how summer programs are run.
Obviously you have no personal knowledge of any team.
It's okay, everybody is ignorant about something.
You are one very ignorant person when it comes to how summer programs are run.
Obviously you have no personal knowledge of any team.
It's okay, everybody is ignorant about something.
ctown, excellant post. i do not know DBAT but i have come to respect and appreciate his posts. we too play select and do not spend near the money vance is talking about.
with regard to vance's comments about select hitting lessons and changing swings. Is this something that only happens in select organizations? High School coaches do not tinker with kids swings? Case in point, my son played select summer and fall and had his weekly hitting sessions with a select coach. HS season starts, first game he goes 3 for 3 with one HR. Next HS practice the coach is totally changing his swing.
with regard to vance's comments about select hitting lessons and changing swings. Is this something that only happens in select organizations? High School coaches do not tinker with kids swings? Case in point, my son played select summer and fall and had his weekly hitting sessions with a select coach. HS season starts, first game he goes 3 for 3 with one HR. Next HS practice the coach is totally changing his swing.
I'm back in the office today -- what did y'all discuss when I was out? 
Not much, really.
I see that -- congratulations on the 1000-post thing. I hope it's ok to continue to hope PantherSon has an AC opportunity.
A few catch-up observations....
Despite this discussion causing frustration and exasperation for some, it is a good one. Good points have been made by several posters. Let's not let disagreement turn into personal attack. Also, when we discuss summer select, let's not single out a specific program for criticism. I think DBAT GM 18 did a nice job defending his....turf.....but DBAT is not unlike many other summer select programs when it comes to the challenges of offering excellent opportunities while trying to control costs. And there are charitable forces behind many programs. DBAT is a little different because of their facility and such. I appreciate the behind-the-scenes generosity of many associated with DBAT. I'm sure it occurs in other groups as well.
Those of you that think Vance's numbers are crazy ---- there was an article in the DMN last year that focused on select sports -- and select baseball in particular. Some well-known area athletes and their teams were mentioned -- and the price tag was twice the number that Vance was throwing around this week. Now, I have to say....I have never been involved with a team that charged $5000 in team fees (alone), but that number is certainly not obsurd when adding up the costs associated with summer baseball. We've had this discussion before ---- I understand a family can drop $5000 on a summer beach trip. Yadda....Yadda....
Concerning AC --- why is this event singled out here? In general, the high-profile events are not cheap -- including JO, AFLAC (select few, I know), East Cobb tourneys, showcases in general, etc. Area Code games is an opportunity. Most of us hate the idea of events like this one conflicting with team schedules. It takes a degree of organizational planning.
Anyway....I heard a rumor about Team USA, FO.
A few catch-up observations....
Despite this discussion causing frustration and exasperation for some, it is a good one. Good points have been made by several posters. Let's not let disagreement turn into personal attack. Also, when we discuss summer select, let's not single out a specific program for criticism. I think DBAT GM 18 did a nice job defending his....turf.....but DBAT is not unlike many other summer select programs when it comes to the challenges of offering excellent opportunities while trying to control costs. And there are charitable forces behind many programs. DBAT is a little different because of their facility and such. I appreciate the behind-the-scenes generosity of many associated with DBAT. I'm sure it occurs in other groups as well.
Those of you that think Vance's numbers are crazy ---- there was an article in the DMN last year that focused on select sports -- and select baseball in particular. Some well-known area athletes and their teams were mentioned -- and the price tag was twice the number that Vance was throwing around this week. Now, I have to say....I have never been involved with a team that charged $5000 in team fees (alone), but that number is certainly not obsurd when adding up the costs associated with summer baseball. We've had this discussion before ---- I understand a family can drop $5000 on a summer beach trip. Yadda....Yadda....
Concerning AC --- why is this event singled out here? In general, the high-profile events are not cheap -- including JO, AFLAC (select few, I know), East Cobb tourneys, showcases in general, etc. Area Code games is an opportunity. Most of us hate the idea of events like this one conflicting with team schedules. It takes a degree of organizational planning.
Anyway....I heard a rumor about Team USA, FO.
I bet he does.
Anyone know how Texas did last year in Area Code? I bet they were the fastest team from dugout to batter's box and back to dugout again. Great team speed.
quote:Anyone know how Texas did last year in Area Code? I bet they were the fastest team from dugout to batter's box and back to dugout again. Great team speed.
Baseballpapa - I know you have asked this questions several times and it seems no one knows how the Rangers group did at AC. I do not. We had four pitchers attend last year (three with the Rangers) and not a single one of them ever mentioned the outcomes of any of the games. They went and did their thing.
I think the event is geared more toward individual performance than team performance and not so much of an emphasis on winning. Probably more like an all-star game than say playing for your city, school, select team or country.
quote:Originally posted by momandcpa:
I "heard" from those that went that the Rangers AC team did not fair well...
So why did you keep asking?
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Concerning AC --- why is this event singled out here?
Ahhh, maybe check the title of this thread.
Yes but....I think we've drifted far enough from the original discussion to mention that this "issue" is not unique to the Area Code games.
Remember Panther,
This all started when I said I didn't understand why there was so much hype on AC.
Guess there is some hype, seems like this thread shot through the roof.
This all started when I said I didn't understand why there was so much hype on AC.
Guess there is some hype, seems like this thread shot through the roof.
AC has so much hype because you get so many scouts watching your moment in the sun.
My '06 pitched 2 innings at Long Beach last summer with about 150 radar guns pointed at him. He got to CHOOSE which college scholarship to accept and heard from schools he had only dreamed about. AC was the only event he ever attended. I don't think many other events produce this sort of result.
The baseball was free. The cost to get there was the best investment we ever made. And we had a great family vacation in Calif. when the baseball ended. We will be eternally thankful to the scouts who gave my son a chance at AC ... no politics involved... he was chosen because he's a good pitcher. Its no exaggeration to say it opened so many doors and changed my son's life.
My '06 pitched 2 innings at Long Beach last summer with about 150 radar guns pointed at him. He got to CHOOSE which college scholarship to accept and heard from schools he had only dreamed about. AC was the only event he ever attended. I don't think many other events produce this sort of result.
The baseball was free. The cost to get there was the best investment we ever made. And we had a great family vacation in Calif. when the baseball ended. We will be eternally thankful to the scouts who gave my son a chance at AC ... no politics involved... he was chosen because he's a good pitcher. Its no exaggeration to say it opened so many doors and changed my son's life.
KCBaseball -- do you mind providing a recap of his work at the tryout and the colleges that expression initial interest? Is he a lefty that threw 90 for the first time that day? Why wasn't he already on the radar screen? Thanks for your post.
Why wasn't he already on the radar screen? Thanks for your post.quote:This all started when I said I didn't understand why there was so much hype on AC.
I think the reason there is so much hype is that if you go to the tryout you can get seen, but if you make the team and go to Long Beach, you get to play in front of the decision makers in a very unique forum. The AC can really change opinions or increase your value. Just as it did for KCbaseball's son. That is why there is hype. It is easily understandable whether you agree or not.
quote:Originally posted by Bighit15:quote:This all started when I said I didn't understand why there was so much hype on AC.
I think the reason there is so much hype is that if you go to the tryout you can get seen, but if you make the team and go to Long Beach, you get to play in front of the decision makers in a very unique forum.
And again, those players that get the invite (usually before the workout) will get seen several times by the "important" people regardless if they are in attendance.
Give it up Gut, you are in the minority on this topic.
Ken, are you saying the AC should be for 2nd level players because the top level guy is gonna be seen anyway?
Come on, so the BEST players get penalized for being the best?
You can never see a player to many times. I'll guarantee you that EVERY 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th rd pick in the draft has been seen multiple times by the upper level scouts in each org. As a mater of fact I'll be willing to bet that some directors have seen Kershaw, Walden, Lincoln, Stubbs, McCullough, Drabek 3 or 4 times this spring alone. ANd as many as 7 or 8 times.
Any time you make someone an instant Millionaire there will be alot of people involved in the out come of who gets picked.
Come on, so the BEST players get penalized for being the best?
You can never see a player to many times. I'll guarantee you that EVERY 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th rd pick in the draft has been seen multiple times by the upper level scouts in each org. As a mater of fact I'll be willing to bet that some directors have seen Kershaw, Walden, Lincoln, Stubbs, McCullough, Drabek 3 or 4 times this spring alone. ANd as many as 7 or 8 times.
Any time you make someone an instant Millionaire there will be alot of people involved in the out come of who gets picked.
Thanks for the insight KC.
To the contrary Diablo! I know exactly how its run. There are some good people involved and some bad ones to. I'm not knocking DBAT and his org. What I'm knocking is the cost to play and the unqualified who are being paid to teach hitting and pitching.
To the contrary Diablo! I know exactly how its run. There are some good people involved and some bad ones to. I'm not knocking DBAT and his org. What I'm knocking is the cost to play and the unqualified who are being paid to teach hitting and pitching.
Vance your comments would lead one to believe you are bashing DBAT. You stated you were knocking the cost to pay and the instructors. Did you mean all facilities or just this facility? You don't know what the cost is to play if you have never had a son on one of the teams. Based on your comments you have not. In my opinion, you are way off base. DBAT is a well respected organization among its peers. Don't take shots because others maynot agree with your opinion.
quote:And again, those players that get the invite (usually before the workout) will get seen several times by the "important" people regardless if they are in attendance.
This is true, but when you have all the organizations there and you perform well, you can really raise your stock and maybe even create a sense of urgency. That could lead to more moooooney! So even though you might think it ridiculous, people want to take evey opportunity. Just human nature. If a 1st rounder can up his pick by 3 or 4 spots. He gets more money. It is a greeed thing. It is a business at this point. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but in the words of Chris Rock; "I understand!"
No SWAC, I'm not! There are some that do a good job. But let me add, DBAT sure hasn't told us what it cost to play either. Alot of times the few good get way overshadowed by the many bad. Bad meaning the ones taking advantage of the parents and padding their pockets.
You know the funny thing here is that the scouts and cross checkers and scouting directors THROW UP RED FLAGS when those best guys aren't at every showcase, workout, and big tournament. They say, "Why isn't _______ here. Is he hurt. Whats he doing? He lacks passion. He has no desire. If he wanted to play he'd be here. Etc." now thats bottom line!
quote:And again, those players that get the invite (usually before the workout) will get seen several times by the "important" people regardless if they are in attendance.
You know the funny thing here is that the scouts and cross checkers and scouting directors THROW UP RED FLAGS when those best guys aren't at every showcase, workout, and big tournament. They say, "Why isn't _______ here. Is he hurt. Whats he doing? He lacks passion. He has no desire. If he wanted to play he'd be here. Etc." now thats bottom line!
quote:Let's not forget... MANY of those that try out are there for the opportunity to play at the collegiate level. It's not necessarily a "greed" thing. It's an avenue to fulfill a young man's dream.
I used the word greed. I did not imply that it was a "bad" thing. If you notice, I also used it in the context of a potentially very high draft pick.
I hear ya.
quote:Vance said:
But let me add, DBAT sure hasn't told us what it cost to play either.
quote:Second: Once all tournaments, league fees, 3 sets of uniforms, equipment and all expenses have been factored in it's about $15-20K that we are out up-front for the summer team. That stuff isn't free you know. Then the owners of DBAT generously throw in a significant amount of that $15-20K to offset the cost to the families. The remaining amount is then divided out based upon the number of players. I can attest to the fact that not a single dollar goes into the DBAT coffers. I suppose it would be ideal if someone ponied up the entire cost of the team but that is not generally feasible - especially when DBAT has three teams. As you can see it is a far cry from the $5K per player you suggested for the 50-60 games that we play during the summer.
In order to bolster your theory about 'evil' instructors/facilities, your above statement implies that I have something to hide. I thought my earlier breakdown in this thread would have been easy enough for you to figure out. It would certainly seem that if our total team expenses ran between $15-20K then the player fee would not be close to the $5000 per player as you claim - unless we had just three or four players. In case you were not aware, it is very difficult to play 100-150 summer games with 4 players. We usually carry 17 or 18 players on our roster and the cost runs between $800-$1200 per summer, per player.
It is apparent that you want to come across as a knowledgable individual but after reading your posts it is apparent that you are not. More likely you are someone whose kid was wronged by some instructor and now you troll these boards with an intention of providing misleading and outright false information.
Stop by the field this summer and I'll be glad to take you over to DBAT for a tour. Heck, I might can even get your kid a free lesson.
Nice post, DBAT.
You took the quotes and words right out of a post I was about to make.
You took the quotes and words right out of a post I was about to make.
DBAT 18 --- can you really do that? Que Hombre!
Que Hombre!
Hey PD time to flush this topic 
and shut it down !!!
and shut it down !!!
We're getting close, T-Ball....but not quite yet. The horse is looking very pale though.
I'd really like to hear more about specific personal AC experiences -- wish we knew more about KCBaseball's situation.
If you're ready to tune out everyone, feel free....I know there is a certain redundancy here.
If you're ready to tune out everyone, feel free....I know there is a certain....never mind.
I'd really like to hear more about specific personal AC experiences -- wish we knew more about KCBaseball's situation.
If you're ready to tune out everyone, feel free....I know there is a certain redundancy here.
If you're ready to tune out everyone, feel free....I know there is a certain....never mind.
quote:DBAT 18 --- can you really do that?
PD - probably not. Since they wouldn't want to burst Vance's bubble about the cost of instructors, the guys at DBAT would probably want me to cover the $1,500 an hour lesson charge.