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Arm Action is King

B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
quote:
You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot.


Painguy is dilusional he can't be held responsible for the garbage he is putting out.
He reminds me of that coach Chris that was forking it out awhile back.
There are kids comming on this site and the info he puts out is obsene.
Garbage in and garbage out. He has reached conclusions before he has finished his so called research.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
A regional crosschecker has a huge area and will write up about 150 pitchers before the draft. He will also be on the road 6 out of every seven days and his expenses will run about $3500 per week. To see all of the pitchers he has crosschecked, you will need to have a lot of free time and a nice bank account. The upside is that you can get the air miles and the Marriott points. Roll Eyes


I have seen about 50 of what I assume are his top prospects. I didn't say that I saw them in person. Since I am just evaluating mechanics, I don't have to. There are many ways of getting video of prospects (e.g. calleaguers.com) and that is enough to evaluate a guy's mechanics.
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
Painguy, Also, on your site you list Bert Blyleven as a delivery with serious elbow and shoulder problems. Where did you come up with this???? Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues until he was 41 years old. He pitched nearly 5000 innings and had 242 complete games. He was injured one year.....at age 31 he missed most of the season and then came back to pitch 10 more years. How long did you expect him to pitch? until he was 50? You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot. Using Blyleven as an example of how not to deliver a baseball is just plain dumb.


The fact is that Blyleven struggled with elbow problems in 1982 and 1983 and missed much of each season...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

Listen, I'm not trying to impugne the guy's character. If I had a vote, I'd say he probably deserves to be in the HOF.

However, the fact remains that he did have serious elbow problems. As a result, I looked at him to see if I could see any similarities between his mechanics and those of other guys who had elbow problems and see if a pattern exists.

That's what you have to do if you want to study this in a scientific manner.



He had 24 starts in 1983 and pitched 156 innings that year. He came back the following year and was 19-7. It has nothing to do with his character, just his delivery, which lasted 22 years in the big leagues.
Now, you write about a guy who pitched 22 years in the big leagues, had almost 5000 innings, along with 242 complete games and you are using him as delivery not to copy, because it causes injury??? Do you realize how silly this makes you look?
Last edited by bbscout
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
A regional crosschecker has a huge area and will write up about 150 pitchers before the draft. He will also be on the road 6 out of every seven days and his expenses will run about $3500 per week. To see all of the pitchers he has crosschecked, you will need to have a lot of free time and a nice bank account. The upside is that you can get the air miles and the Marriott points. Roll Eyes


I have seen about 50 of what I assume are his top prospects. I didn't say that I saw them in person. Since I am just evaluating mechanics, I don't have to. There are many ways of getting video of prospects (e.g. calleaguers.com) and that is enough to evaluate a guy's mechanics.



I have news for you....calleaguers.com is a site with only pro players on it. It is also 3 years old and does not have any of this years amatuer prospects on it.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
He had 24 starts in 1983 and pitched 156 innings that year. He came back the following year and was 19-7. It has nothing to do with his character, just his delivery, which lasted 22 years in the big leagues. Now, you write about a guy who pitched 22 years in the big league, had almost 5000 innings, along with 242 complete games and you are using him as delivery not to copy, because it causes injury??? Do you realize how silly this makes you look?


If you read my web site, you'll see that I don't tell people not to copy him or that his mechanics cause injury.

Instead, I just classify him as a pitcher with a serious shoulder and elbow problems.

As much as possible, and because of conversations like these, I try to stick to "just the facts".
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by deemax:
quote:
To do this correctly (e.g. in a scientifically valid manner)


If you want to do it scientifically stop trying to fit evidence into your hypothesis and gather data indescriminantly.


That's the plan.

I have downloaded and processed the Lahman database. I'm trying to figure out an easy way to merge that with good injury data.

However, good injury data is hard to come by in the right format.
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
I have news for you....calleaguers.com is a site with only pro players on it. It is also 3 years old and does not have any of this years amatuer prospects on it.


That was just an example.

I rely on a variety of web-based sources.

Also, I have a network of guys will send me tapes of guys.



That was an example??? Pretty lousy example, and if I had not called you on it, you would have just let it stand and used it as one of your "FACTS".
Last edited by bbscout
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
painguy

To put it BLUNTLY you are a SHAM !!!!-- You read and regurgitate---what the hell is your background other than reading on the internet and getting emails that say "hey you may be right"


What is your age?
Are you a scout?
Are you an instructor?
Have you ever played the game of baseball/


DUH---put it here !!!! Let us evaluate---I agree with ****le--you are leading kids astray

You have problems with HOF arms ---HOLY COW !!!!!
F FlippJ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
It could be that Smoltz's M has flattened out over the years (I think the same thing may have happened to Clemens). Here is what I think is an earlier clip showing more of an M (e.g. with the elbows above and behind the level of the shoulders)...

thepainguy,

Both clips are from the 2005 season. I know this because I created the clips.

Jason
Last edited by FlippJ
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
quote:
You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot.


Painguy is dilusional he can't be held responsible for the garbage he is putting out.
He reminds me of that coach Chris that was forking it out awhile back.
There are kids comming on this site and the info he puts out is obsene.
Garbage in and garbage out. He has reached conclusions before he has finished his so called research.


So you think it's wrong to advocate the mechanics of...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Roy Oswalt

Please explain exactly what exactly is "obsene" about this?
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
The "fact" is that Blyleven pitched 22 years in the big leagues and pianguy thinks his delivery is an injury waiting to happen.


Fact one is that Blyleven had serious arm problems in 1982. If you consult Baseball Reference, you will see that he only pitched 20.3 innings in 1982. His inning counts were also down significantly in 1981 and 1983, suggesting that his performance was affected over 3 seasons.

Fact two is that Maddux has not had serious arm problems. You see no significant drop in innings pitched during Maddux's career.

I'm trying to determine whether Maddux was just lucky (or a genetic freak) or whether his mechanics may have had something to do with his lack of serious arm problems.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by FlippJ:
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
It could be that Smoltz's M has flattened out over the years (I think the same thing may have happened to Clemens). Here is what I think is an earlier clip showing more of an M (e.g. with the elbows above and behind the level of the shoulders)...

thepainguy,

Both clips are from the 2005 season. I know this because I created the clips.


In that case, then I believe that people may be drawing incorrect assumptions about Smoltz's arm action from the clip above. Assuming that what is shown below is his full-speed arm action, then the clip below suggests that Smoltz's arm action is more of a horizontal W than an "M" or "Inverted W".



In that case, I apologize and take back any reservations I have previously expressed about Smoltz's arm action.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
What is your age?


39.


quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Are you a scout?


Yes, but on a part-time basis.

This season I am working as a regional pitching cross-checker for a ML team. I am working with a regional cross-checker and he has me take a look at guys he is considering drafting and wants to know if their mechanics suggest that they are more likely to be a Mark Prior or a Greg Maddux.

He wants me to speak to his entire scouting organization in January.

P.S. I just got a list of 5 more names a couple of minutes ago, including a pitcher who I think is the son of someone on this site. From the little I've seen of him, the kid's got beautiful mechanics.


quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Are you an instructor?


Yes.

I work mostly on the youth level teaching pitching and hitting (rotational hitting).

However, I have a couple of college kids and pro prospects that I am working with. Generally, people come to me after experiencing serious injuries that keep recurring and that nobody has been able to resolve.


quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Have you ever played the game of baseball.


Yes.

I played all through grade school, but wasn't able to play in HS due to arm problems that developed due to poor mechanics.

I tried to play in college (D3) and was a solid hitter, but I had problems with my arm going dead during practice. I never had this checked out, but I assume I did something serious to my Labrum or Rotator Cuff.

Those problems with dead arm persist to this day, and as a result I have to be very careful when throwing around with my boys.

Since my older son is a pitcher, I don't want his dream cut short like mine was.
Last edited by thepainguy
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
The "fact" is that Blyleven pitched 22 years in the big leagues and pianguy thinks his delivery is an injury waiting to happen.


Fact one is that Blyleven had serious arm problems in 1982. If you consult Baseball Reference, you will see that he only pitched 20.3 innings in 1982. His inning counts were also down significantly in 1981 and 1983, suggesting that his performance was affected over 3 seasons.

Fact two is that Maddux has not had serious arm problems. You see no significant drop in innings pitched during Maddux's career.

I'm trying to determine whether Maddux was just lucky (or a genetic freak) or whether his mechanics may have had something to do with his lack of serious arm problems.


If you check your "FACTS", you will notice that every major league pitcher's innings were down in 1981, because there was a strike that took away 38% of the season.
Thr FACT is that Blyleven pitched 22 seasons in the big leagues and after his injury in 1982, he pitched well over 200 innings in a season "SIX" more times.
Using him as a model of a delivery not to emulate is pure nonsense.

Maddux has a great delivery, and you have still not thanked me for the clip that you have of him on your site that was taken by me when he was 19 years old. I have many more of them.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
Maddux has a great delivery, and you have still not thanked me for the clip that you have of him on your site that was taken by me when he was 19 years old. I have many more of them.


I completely agree.

I am in your debt for that clip and the other two that you have posted (and would love to see any others that you may have).

Thank you very much.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Chris are you related to the LSD Oleary ?


No.

That's Timothy Leary. His family apparently dropped the "O" at some point, possibly due to anti-Irish prejudice.

The more appropriate reference to me would be to refer to the Great Chicago Fire and Mrs. O'Leary's cow.


quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I wish one of these pitchers whould sue you for defamation.


I'm not trying to defame anyone.

I'm simply trying to state facts about people and not make value judgements.

It's a fact that some people experience certain injuries and others don't. I think that may not be a coincidence.

Also, there is no basis for a defamation suit, since what I am doing does not fit the definition of defamation since I can back my statements up with references to Baseball-Reference.


quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I don't debate your stolen ideas because there is nothing to debate.


From whom did I steal these ideas?

Certainly not from Mike Marshall.

He thinks that the elbows should NEVER go behind the shoulders. I think it seems to be fine if the elbows go behind the shoulders as long as they stay BELOW the level of the shoulders.

Also, Mike Marshall thinks it's impossible for the elbows to go above the level of the shoulders. I think he's incorrect about that (among other things).
Last edited by thepainguy
ChameleonChameleon100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
What is the crosscheckers name?


I'm sorry, but I can't tell you his name or organization.

My views are obviously controversial and he wants to be able to control when he goes public with his association with me.


ROFLMMFAO

Now that is funny.

He's with the Mets and he stroked your ego a little and now you're are WAY out of control.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
What is the crosscheckers name?


I'm sorry, but I can't tell you his name or organization.

My views are obviously controversial and he wants to be able to control when he goes public with his association with me.


ROFLMMFAO

Now that is funny.

He's with the ********** and he stroked your ego a little and now you're are WAY out of control.


I'm sorry, but I can't comment on whether that's the team or not.
Last edited by thepainguy
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
painguy

Your bio on your "site" tells me NADA about your baseball background---did you ever play the game?

Or are you just another "cyberspace cowboy" with and idea that popped into your head one day ?


I answered your question above.

Here's what I said...

I played all through grade school, but wasn't able to play in HS due to arm problems that developed due to poor mechanics.

I tried to play in college (D3) and was a solid hitter, but I had problems with my arm going dead during practice. I never had this checked out, but I assume I did something serious to my Labrum or Rotator Cuff.

Those problems with dead arm persist to this day, and as a result I have to be very careful when throwing around with my boys.

Since my older son is a pitcher, I don't want his dream cut short like mine was.
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