Arm Action is King

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
Joel Zumaya...
Billy Wagner...
Adam Wainwright...
Aaron Heilman...
Anthony Reyes...

...but, how many of these guys actually start external rotation with the elbow still up there? As my broken record has stated so often, the video I've looked at of these guys shows the elbow immediately dropping from the position in these STILLS.

Without my having any evidence to back it up, I suggest that your theory would be more credible if you were to consider this high elbow as a precursor to, or an indication of, something to come that might be problematic and not the actual root cause of problems due to theoretical impingement issues.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I thought you were talking about here...

No.

What I'm most concerned with is the height of the PAS elbow as the PAS upper arm starts to externally rotate. The easy reference point for this is usually when the PAS forearm is vertical.

What Koufax is doing in the photo above is safe for the shoulder in terms of impingement because his shoulders are steeply tilted like this...



The level of the shoulders is represented by the solid white line.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

Like elbow higher then the shoulder during overhead throwing.

Can you elaborate on this...higher then the shoulder based on the horizon, or higher based on a linear path between the shoulders....

As Einstein said, it's all relative.

It has nothing to do with the person's orientation relative to the ground.

Instead, what matters is what's going on relative to the other anatomy of the shoulder. The reference point that I use is the top of the Acromial processes, which is the bony bump at the top of the shoulder. Another reference point is to draw a line perpendicular to the spine at the base of the neck.

Because of this, interpreting whether someone's elbows are above the level of their shoulders can get a bit tricky. I have personally been fooled by guys like Dontrelle Willis and Randy Johnson who lean forward during their stride. That can make their elbows look higher than they actually are. Their elbows ARE high relative to the ground, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that they are below the level of their shoulders.

The photo below of Randy Johnson is a good example of this. Notice how he's leaning forward toward 1B. That means that while his elbows are high up in the air, they are still below the level of his shoulders (as measured by a line perpendicular to his spine whose origin is the top of the neck of his jersey).

Correct.

I would also like to add that genetics do come into play. This area between the humerus and acromion can be genetically smaller or larger on a person. Anatomically we all have minor differences. "Some have it and some don't."

It also depends on the point in the motion that the elbow is elevated.

Example: stand with your arm at your side. Begin to raise it straight out to the side (abduction) with your thumb pointed downward. You will probably get the arm to about 20-30 degrees above the shoulder level which will total about 120 degrees of abduction. 90 degrees would be straight out to the side with hand at shoulder height.

Now turn your hand so the palm is up (external rotation of the arm) and see how much farther you can raise the arm. Im going to bet you can get it all the way up and over your head unless there is shoulder pathology of some sort.

Why? Because on external rotation the greater tubercle of the humerous rotates out of the way and on internal rotation it rotates into the subacromion space and reduces the clearance.

There actually is alot going on with the scapula and its rotation on the rib cage as the arm is lifted and travels through its "arm action" but this gets confusing even if you know anatomy so we will stay 101 for now.

Wow someone who knows what they are talking about. Not that you will get through to the Pain.

If I'm reading this correctly, I'm pretty sure Gameth is agreeing to what Chris is saying

Thus,

quote:

Wow someone who knows what they are talking about. Not that you will get through to the Pain.

Makes no sense

quote:

Originally posted by XFactor:
If I'm reading this correctly, I'm pretty sure Gameth is agreeing to what Chris is saying.

You're correct.

Listen to Gameth if it's easier for you, but please listen.

I am referring to the part about determining high elbow. My doctor who is a sports Chyro who coached in the Texas Rangers and co wrote the pitchers edge series likes high elbows but not above the shoulders. They may disagree with some points but he understands the body structure. My Doc always makes sure my son's elbows are both at shoulder level.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I am referring to the part about determining high elbow. My doctor who is a sports Chyro who coached in the Texas Rangers and co wrote the pitchers edge series likes high elbows but not above the shoulders. They may disagree with some points but he understands the body structure. My Doc always makes sure my son's elbows are both at shoulder level.

And around and around we go...

Leaving aside my theories about the relationship between elbow height and injury, here are some questions...

1. What is your MD's basis for liking high elbows?

2. At what point are you referring to? High Cocked position (e.g. PAS forearm vertical? Release Point?

3. If he means at the High Cocked position, how does he resolve that with the fact that if you look at guys like Maddux, Ryan, Seaver, and Johnson, you don't see high elbows at this moment in time?









I have multiple problems with Dick Mills, but when he talks about belief-based teaching versus fact-based teaching, I think he's dead on.

quote:

Ha, that is funny. Your amount of posts on this board is what qualifies you as knowing what you are talking about?

Did I post something that was incorrect? I don't care how many forum posts you ha

My point was that you don't know much about the guys you are telling to wake up. You do have to be around a bit to know what these guys know. You are a Sports Chyro and do understand the body as I mentioned .

As you know your elbow has low points before getting to the power position. You pick photos that show the elbow just below the shoulders on their way to their power position.

PAINGUY

You keep saying that "you have problems" with Dick Mills et al-- Guys who, whether you agree with their teachings or not, are recognized in the pitching instruction field---What is your pitching background to say that?---I think it is absolutely NADA--ZILCH and that is certainly very disturbing if you are striving to teach young pitchers

quote:

You keep saying that "you have problems" with Dick Mills et al-- Guys who, whether you agree with their teachings or not, are recognized in the pitching instruction field---What is your pitching background to say that?--

STRIKE 3

You simply can't leave it alone, and you certainly can't stay on topic.