Arm Action is King

quote:

See Chad Bradford, for example.

Randy Johnson has also had a really bad back....

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are there any accurate statistics available of M's vs W's = shoulder and elbow injuries?

Not yet.

Everything I have is anecdotal so far.

This is one of the things I am working on for the team I am working with. They think there may be something to the "M" versus "W" distinction, but my contact isn't yet completely convinced.

However, it is interesting to look at guys who are in the HOF. You see far more W's than M's, and the guys who make the M (e.g. Drysdale) tended to have shoulder problems.

To say that Drysdale tended to have shoulder problems is nonsense.He never had any arm problems until his last year. He pitched 12 consecutive years without missing a start, which is an all time record. He pitched well over 3000 innings during that time. He had 167 complete games. His career ended because the doctors back then did not know how to repair the injury that he sustained. Clemens had shoulder surgery in the late 80's, Randy johnson has had elbow and back surgery. Greg Maddux has taken about a dozen cortizone shots. Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery. Marichal retired due to back and shoulder problems. Koufax had to call it quits due to elbow problems that would have been fixed in about a month today. Clemens, Ryan and Johnson came back due to the advances in medicine.

On your site you mention that Jeff Weaver has a delivery that should hold up.....well, he is on the DL with shoulder problems.

Tekulve, Vandermeer,Quisenberry, Myers and many other side armers never had back problems.

Heck, Smoltz has been pitching pro ball since he was drafted in 1985......you should pray that the kids you hang out with should have such a great delivery, great stuff and last as long. he is 40 years old and still throwing gas and winning.

Refreshing to hear your comments bbscout.

The comments of a guy who does this for a living.

bbscout

bbscout,

Thanks for posting that information. These "scare tactics" are very common these days. Especially in the baseball instruction world. It's amazing how many people fall for them.

Jason

At times I disagree with some of the things “painguy” posts. Not exactly sure, but I think this is one of them.

However, I don’t see how someone’s opinion can be considered a scare tactic. He obviously has spent a lot of time studying this (I think). He has said he has no problem with those who disagree with his “theory”.

These are great threads IMO. One guy speaks his mind about his beliefs and others debate it. Both sides to the issue… Seems like a good thing to me. In the end everyone believes what they want. I love the back and forth stuff from knowledgable people who are passionate about the game and their beliefs. Painguy mentions players as examples, bbscout counters, others speak their mind… It’s all great stuff!

Lastly, what if by some chance “painguy” turns out to be correct about all of this “M” stuff? We all know that there is still a lot to learn when it comes to baseball. The people who post on this and the hitting thread do a great job of making us think at times. Having an open mind, I will keep on reading and thanks to all who participate here.

quote:

Third, if I know so little about pitching, then why is my select team 5-0 and my rec league team 4-3? Why do we routinely beat teams that have pitchers who throw harder? The answer is that I teach my guys how to pitch. I teach them to keep the ball down, I teach them to hit their spots, and I teach them to change speeds.

Here's an offer. I believe you live in St. Louis, so why not come and see one of my 12U games? My son will pitch Monday and Saturday of next week. What you will see is a kid who typically throws at 80 percent of his maximum but who gets guys out because he has a nasty sinker and also throws a circle change, a screwball, a pronation curve, and a hard 4-Seamer. You can also see one of my other pitchers who throws in the neighborhood of 60 MPH, but who does so with mechanics that are safe.

----------------------------------

Chris, I somewhat appreciate your dedication to learn and share with others.

But, (there's always a "but" that follows the compliment) succeeding at 10-12 years old often is the result of a lot of things, with great mechanics often coming 3rd or 4th on the list. (BTW, my son was undefeated from 11 until 14. LL team was 25-0. He had 4 no hitters and a perfect game. Doesn't make me a great coach. Like yourself, I've learned more in the past 5 years, and laugh on how little I knew and still manged to win at LL, Ruth, freshman. Winning does not neccessarily mean great knowledge at younger levels. Good athletes and coaching against lesser knowledgeable guys makes for a great assistant coach). lol

That being said, SCREWBALL! Your 12 year-old throws a screwball? Can you please elaborate on how, hopefully, you have changed the mechanics on throwing a screwball so that it does not cause injury. Who was the last pitcher to throw a screwball? (I have no clue, thinking maybe Valenzuela).

Does a 12U pitcher really need a sinker, change, curveball, screw ball, and 4-seamer? How come no 2-seamer?

Don't know much about 12 year old players these days, but don't the best arms still throw gas right by those young hitters?

I do see lots of curve balls thrown in the Little League World Series, but most of the pitchers I see have real good arms for their age.

Here is a stupid question... At age 12 do pitchers throw off a mound? And if so, how high is it? Just curious!

Around here, sometimes they pitch off of mounds and sometimes it's off of flat ground. Depends on the tournament. When it's off a mound, it's usually from a 6" high portable mound.

PG,
Most of the curveball pitchers you see in the LLWS are not the harder throwers. They usually have pretty good arms for their age, throwing mid or even upper 60s but they've had to adjust to keep on winning against stronger competition. The 70+ kids with the really strong arms aren't usually the ones throwing many curves.

quote:

Timing of body sequencing has more to do with creating the whip than arm action.

This says it all! The same goes for hitting! Torque means power and separation at the right time and distance of the separation are the keys. IMO. The longer the whip...the louder the pop, but only if the timing is correct. The action of what it takes to make an actual whip pop is a very good video to study. What the whip is made of (the condition of the hitter or Pitcher) and length (height of Pitcher or hitter), are also factors in the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
At times I disagree with some of the things “painguy” posts. Not exactly sure, but I think this is one of them.

However, I don’t see how someone’s opinion can be considered a scare tactic. He obviously has spent a lot of time studying this (I think). He has said he has no problem with those who disagree with his “theory”.

These are great threads IMO. One guy speaks his mind about his beliefs and others debate it. Both sides to the issue… Seems like a good thing to me. In the end everyone believes what they want. I love the back and forth stuff from knowledgable people who are passionate about the game and their beliefs. Painguy mentions players as examples, bbscout counters, others speak their mind… It’s all great stuff!

Lastly, what if by some chance “painguy” turns out to be correct about all of this “M” stuff? We all know that there is still a lot to learn when it comes to baseball. The people who post on this and the hitting thread do a great job of making us think at times. Having an open mind, I will keep on reading and thanks to all who participate here.

PG,

If you are an example of the other folks that work with Perfect Game, I can see why it is one of the best baseball outlets in the Country for great baseball players, their families and the game in general.

quote:

Originally posted by noreast:
But, (there's always a "but" that follows the compliment) succeeding at 10-12 years old often is the result of a lot of things, with great mechanics often coming 3rd or 4th on the list. (BTW, my son was undefeated from 11 until 14. LL team was 25-0. He had 4 no hitters and a perfect game. Doesn't make me a great coach. Like yourself, I've learned more in the past 5 years, and laugh on how little I knew and still manged to win at LL, Ruth, freshman. Winning does not neccessarily mean great knowledge at younger levels. Good athletes and coaching against lesser knowledgeable guys makes for a great assistant coach).

I know that. I was just trying to make a point. First, my pitchers are effective, even though some don't throw that hard. Second, a couple of my guys do throw very hard.

I don't have a problem with thier throwing hard because their mechanics are solid.

quote:

Originally posted by noreast:
That being said, SCREWBALL! Your 12 year-old throws a screwball? Can you please elaborate on how, hopefully, you have changed the mechanics on throwing a screwball so that it does not cause injury. Who was the last pitcher to throw a screwball? (I have no clue, thinking maybe Valenzuela).

It's a myth that a screwball destroys the arm.

Mike Marshall threw one for 17 years and never had any arm problems.

Thrown properly, a screwball is much less stressful on the arm than a curveball or slider since a screwball is thrown with pronation rather than supination.

Also, many current pros throw what are basically modified screwballs. Most circle changes have a screwball type action. Jake Peavy's fastball is thrown with heavy pronation, which is why it runs in on RH batters. So is Mariano Rivera's cutter than runs in on RH batters. Greg Maddux also pronates many of his pitches. Dice-K also throws a number of pronated pitches. Phil Hughes has a nasty pronated change.

When looking at pros, any pitch that moves in toward the hitter when thrown by a RHP to a RH batter is thrown with pronation, which is the same motion that is used to throw a screwball.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Does a 12U pitcher really need a sinker, change, curveball, screw ball, and 4-seamer?

No, but all of the pitches reinforce the idea of pronating your pitches. His sinker, 4-seamer, and circle change are his primary pitches and the ones he can command.

I encourage this because it keeps him from experimenting with a supination curve or a slider. He can do things with the ball that nobody around here has ever seen, so he isn't tempted to throw a supination curve as a result. With his pronated pitches, against RH batters he'll start the ball off of the plate and then sweep it back in through the strike zone.

During games I'll yell out "Screwball" when I want him to throw one (usually as an out pitch). Nobody around here knows what that means, so I'm not tipping off anything. They just stand there thinking it's a ball and then watch it sweep back over the plate.

It's pretty neat to watch.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
How come no 2-seamer?

His sinker is a 2-Seamer. It's his best pitch because it's very heavy due to the pronation.

As a result, he is a ground ball/pop-up pitcher ala Tom Glavine. This also helps to keep his pitch counts low (e.g. lots of 4-pitch innings).

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Don't know much about 12 year old players these days, but don't the best arms still throw gas right by those young hitters?

In the leagues that we play in (1 rec and 1 select), we have only faced one kid who could just blow us away (he was a big kid who was biologically 15ish and who was cruising in the high 60s). All the other hard throwers tend to leave the ball up in the zone, and thus are hittable.

As I tell my guys, the harder it comes in, the harder it goes back out.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Here is a stupid question... At age 12 do pitchers throw off a mound? And if so, how high is it? Just curious!

No. Our guys throw off of flat ground.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
At times I disagree with some of the things “painguy” posts. Not exactly sure, but I think this is one of them.

However, I don’t see how someone’s opinion can be considered a scare tactic. He obviously has spent a lot of time studying this (I think). He has said he has no problem with those who disagree with his “theory”.

Thank you, PG.

I'm not trying to scare people. That's Mike Marshall's racket.

All I'm trying to do is suggest that some of what is currently being taught (e.g. arm action and Inverted W) is both unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

I have no problem with anyone who advocates the mechanics of...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens

It's when people start advocating the mechanics of...

- Billy Wagner
- Mark Prior
- Joel Zumaya

...that I get agitated.

quote:

Also, many current pros throw what are basically modified screwballs. Most circle changes have a screwball type action. Jake Peavy's fastball is thrown with heavy pronation, which is why it runs in on RH batters. So is Mariano Rivera's cutter than runs in on RH batters

Sorry Pain,

Have to disagree here! Rivera's cutter might run in on LHH. I would bet Peavey is throwing a 2-seamer which commonly runs in from a RHP to RHH. Never have I heard of these being compared to a screwball. But I guess the circle change and 2-seamer do have screw ball path at times.

micmeister,

Thanks for the compliment. We have a lot of people who work at Perfect Game. Like everything else we are all different. But there are plenty of real good baseball people on our side.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
To say that Drysdale tended to have shoulder problems is nonsense.He never had any arm problems until his last year. He pitched 12 consecutive years without missing a start, which is an all time record. He pitched well over 3000 innings during that time. He had 167 complete games. His career ended because the doctors back then did not know how to repair the injury that he sustained.

All of this is true. However, it's also true that...

1. His mechanics were different than those of Nolan Ryan or Greg Maddux.
2. He had shoulder problems.

I think the two are related.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Clemens had shoulder surgery in the late 80's

True. However, Clemens' mechanics have changed since his days in Boston. He's smoother now.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Greg Maddux has taken about a dozen cortizone shots.

But he hasn't had any serious injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery.

This was very early on in his career and is likely one of the reasons he became such a freak about conditioning.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Marichal retired due to back and shoulder problems.

According to Wikipedia...

In 1970, Marichal experienced a severe reaction to penicillin which led to back pain and chronic arthritis.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Koufax had to call it quits due to elbow problems that would have been fixed in about a month today.

Koufax had a congenital circulatory problem that likely hindered his arm's ability to heal. He was also horribly overused and was given far too many cortisone shots in a short period of time.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
On your site you mention that Jeff Weaver has a delivery that should hold up.....well, he is on the DL with shoulder problems.

If I concede on Jeff Weaver, then you have to give me Chris Carpenter. I was the only person I know of who expressed any concern about him. I also expressed concerns about Adam Wainwright's mechanics. Also, with Anthony Reyes it's just a matter of time.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Tekulve, Vandermeer,Quisenberry, Myers and many other side armers never had back problems.

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Heck, Smoltz has been pitching pro ball since he was drafted in 1985......you should pray that the kids you hang out with should have such a great delivery, great stuff and last as long. he is 40 years old and still throwing gas and winning.

I agree that Smoltz's career has been remarkable. However, remember that injuries forced him to spend several years pitching in the bullpen (see 2001-2004 seasons). Maddux, Ryan, and Seaver never had to do that.

Just a couple questions

But when did 3 years become classified as several?

And wasn't it more so the fact that they needed him as a closer after they saw how dominating he was in that role, as opposed to them keeping him in there because of the TJ surgery?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Heck, Smoltz has been pitching pro ball since he was drafted in 1985......you should pray that the kids you hang out with should have such a great delivery, great stuff and last as long. he is 40 years old and still throwing gas and winning.

Watching Smoltz pitch has been a treat to say the least...



Jason

quote:

But when did 3 years become classified as several?

2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 = 4 years.

2 = Couple
3 = Few
4 = Several

quote:

And wasn't it more so the fact that they needed him as a closer after they saw how dominating he was in that role, as opposed to them keeping him in there because of the TJ surgery?

I don't know, but generally starting pitching is regarded as more important than relief pitching.

quote:

Originally posted by FlippJ:
Watching Smoltz pitch has been a treat to say the least...

I agree.

Also, it's interesting to note that in the clip above (which is circa 2005) what you see is more of a Horizontal M than a pure M (or Inverted W) and relatively similar to the clip of Randy Johnson.



As I have said before, I have no problem with the Horizontal M (or W).

As a result, and just to be COMPLETELY clear, I really don't have a problem with what I see in the clip below of John Smoltz.



I'm not as happy with it as I am with Maddux's or Johnson's arm action, because his PAS elbow is a LITTLE high, but it's still pretty good. It doesn't seem to get above the level of the letters on his back.

It could be that Smoltz's M has flattened out over the years (I think the same thing may have happened to Clemens). Here is what I think is an earlier clip showing more of an M (e.g. with the elbows above and behind the level of the shoulders)...



Also, Smoltz's M was never as severe as Mark Prior's, which I think explains their different fates.

From what I can remember from those years, (and there's a very good chance I could be wrong) in 01 he was for sure staying in the pen to recover from TJ, the same in 02, but in 03 and 04 didn't they have a solid Rotation?

Because I can remember reading and hearing in interviews that Smoltz was unhappy after the 02 season because he said he was healthy and wanted to be back in the rotation, but there 'wasn't a spot' for him?

Again I could be wrong, can someone shed some light on this?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
All I'm trying to do is suggest that some of what is currently being taught (e.g. arm action and Inverted W) is both unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

Chris, do you really know to what extent to which the inverted W is actually taught? I can't say I've ever heard anyone teach it. Instead, I'd suspect that its use comes about due to the physiological needs for loading up the arm. For example, someone with more flexibility (or even a case of G.I.R.D.) might need to use that action to achieve a good load. If there is something injurious about this, then would it not be the underlying physiological issues and not the arm action itself that are the precursors to injury?

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Chris, do you really know to what extent to which the inverted W is actually taught? I can't say I've ever heard anyone teach it.

I don't know for sure.

I do know that I have come across multiple people who teach (or at least advocate)...

1. Breaking the hands with the elbows.
2. Picking up the ball with the elbows.

I believe many people have gotten this either directly or indirectly from PN in CT as part of the whole Scapular Loading thing.

Also, the similarity in the arm action of many of the guys who come out of USC (e.g. Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes and to a lesser degree Ian Kennedy) makes me suspect that it was taught (or at least advocated) there for some period of time.

I think the whole Mark Prior debacle have made people rethink the idea, which I think is a VERY good thing.

However, and as I said before, this is just a supposition.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Instead, I'd suspect that its use comes about due to the physiological needs for loading up the arm. For example, someone with more flexibility (or even a case of G.I.R.D.) might need to use that action to achieve a good load.

All I can say is "maybe".

I have a pitcher on my 12U team who seems to have come up with it on his own. I can't break him of the habit.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
If there is something injurious about this, then would it not be the underlying physiological issues and not the arm action itself that are the precursors to injury?

Maybe, but I doubt it.

I say that because I agree with House when he says that 80 percent of a pitcher's power is generated in the torso. As a result, I believe that Arm action is over-rated.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
To say that Drysdale tended to have shoulder problems is nonsense.He never had any arm problems until his last year. He pitched 12 consecutive years without missing a start, which is an all time record. He pitched well over 3000 innings during that time. He had 167 complete games. His career ended because the doctors back then did not know how to repair the injury that he sustained.

All of this is true. However, it's also true that...

1. His mechanics were different than those of Nolan Ryan or Greg Maddux.
2. He had shoulder problems.

I think the two are related.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Clemens had shoulder surgery in the late 80's

True. However, Clemens' mechanics have changed since his days in Boston. He's smoother now.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Greg Maddux has taken about a dozen cortizone shots.

But he hasn't had any serious injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery.

This was very early on in his career and is likely one of the reasons he became such a freak about conditioning.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Marichal retired due to back and shoulder problems.

According to Wikipedia...

In 1970, Marichal experienced a severe reaction to penicillin which led to back pain and chronic arthritis.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Koufax had to call it quits due to elbow problems that would have been fixed in about a month today.

Koufax had a congenital circulatory problem that likely hindered his arm's ability to heal. He was also horribly overused and was given far too many cortisone shots in a short period of time.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
On your site you mention that Jeff Weaver has a delivery that should hold up.....well, he is on the DL with shoulder problems.

If I concede on Jeff Weaver, then you have to give me Chris Carpenter. I was the only person I know of who expressed any concern about him. I also expressed concerns about Adam Wainwright's mechanics. Also, with Anthony Reyes it's just a matter of time.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Tekulve, Vandermeer,Quisenberry, Myers and many other side armers never had back problems.

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Heck, Smoltz has been pitching pro ball since he was drafted in 1985......you should pray that the kids you hang out with should have such a great delivery, great stuff and last as long. he is 40 years old and still throwing gas and winning.

I agree that Smoltz's career has been remarkable. However, remember that injuries forced him to spend several years pitching in the bullpen (see 2001-2004 seasons). Maddux, Ryan, and Seaver never had to do that.

In answer to your first quote...Drysdale threw almost sidearm, so yes, his mechanics were different than Ryan and Maddux. He hurt his shoulder.....Maddux and Ryan hurt their elbows...big deal. They are all either in the HOF or headed there.

I disagree that Clemens is smoother now than in the late 80's. His backstroke is shorter now, because he is older and not as flexible as he was then.....he also does not throw as hard now as he did then.

Maddux took cortizone shots, but it was not serious??? Do you think he just took them for fun?

When Ryan had elbow surgery, he had been pitching pro ball for ten years, and had already been a 20 game winner, which never happened again.

Koufax had renauds phenomenom in his finger in 1962 which healed up just fine. It was not a congenital circulatory problem, and had nothing to do with his elbow.

You say you will give me Weaver.....how about Felix Hernandez being on the DL this year with a bad elbow? How about the 39 starts Roy Halladay missed between 2000-2005?? Shoulder and elbow problems. How about the 15 starts Oswalt missed in 2003?? You have these guys listed as deliveries that won't have arm problems!!!!

Smoltz' injuries did not force him to the bullpen. They asked him to be the closer at age 36 and he pitched lights out and threw in 75, 62 and 73 games the nerxt three seasons and then came back and started at age 38 and never missed a beat.You don't make a guy a closer and then pitch him in 73 games if he has a sore arm!! I think that most baseball people would understand this. Do you?

Given that they had a different pitching coach for Prior's first season at USC than they did his second I doubt he made any significant modifications in Prior's arm action. USC's pitching coach does like to have pitchers break their hands in a vertical plane but so do a lot of pitching coaches.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Chris, do you really know to what extent to which the inverted W is actually taught? I can't say I've ever heard anyone teach it.

I don't know for sure.

I do know that I have come across multiple people who teach (or at least advocate)...

1. Breaking the hands with the elbows.
2. Picking up the ball with the elbows.

I believe many people have gotten this either directly or indirectly from PN in CT as part of the whole Scapular Loading thing.

Also, the similarity in the arm action of many of the guys who come out of USC (e.g. Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes and to a lesser degree Ian Kennedy) makes me suspect that it was taught (or at least advocated) there for some period of time.

I think the whole Mark Prior debacle have made people rethink the idea, which I think is a VERY good thing.

However, and as I said before, this is just a supposition.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
Instead, I'd suspect that its use comes about due to the physiological needs for loading up the arm. For example, someone with more flexibility (or even a case of G.I.R.D.) might need to use that action to achieve a good load.

All I can say is "maybe".

I have a pitcher on my 12U team who seems to have come up with it on his own. I can't break him of the habit.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
If there is something injurious about this, then would it not be the underlying physiological issues and not the arm action itself that are the precursors to injury?

Maybe, but I doubt it.

I say that because I agree with House when he says that 80 percent of a pitcher's power is generated in the torso. As a result, I believe that Arm action is over-rated.

House??? is this the same guy who wrote about 7 books and put out about 7 tapes over a 15 year span and then admitted that he was wrong???? He then wrote another book and produced another tape and said that this time he was right!! He used Mark Prior as his model in his new book...nice going Tom...good grief,you then quote what he says and then print it here on the HSBBWeb because you agree with him!!! You agreeing with him does not mean very much......buyer beware.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
In answer to your first quote...Drysdale threw almost sidearm, so yes, his mechanics were different than Ryan and Maddux. He hurt his shoulder.....Maddux and Ryan hurt their elbows...big deal. They are all either in the HOF or headed there.

My problem with Drysdale isn't that he threw sidearm. Many guys do that and have long careers.

My problem with Drysdale is with what he's doing in these photos...





In particular, notice the height of the PAS elbow and the significant M. Neither Maddux nor Ryan did anything close to this.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Maddux took cortizone shots, but it was not serious??? Do you think he just took them for fun?

Inflammation is different than muscle, tendon, or ligament tears.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Koufax had renauds phenomenom in his finger in 1962 which healed up just fine. It was not a congenital circulatory problem, and had nothing to do with his elbow.

The stories I have read suggest that Koufax's problems were significantly more serious than that. For example, people talk of his entire arm being black and blue due to Hemorrhaging.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
You say you will give me Weaver.....how about Felix Hernandez being on the DL this year with a bad elbow?

Hernandez's problems involved his Pronator Teres muscle, not a tendon or ligament. It was basically a pulled muscle, which reflects a conditioning problem.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
How about the 39 starts Roy Halladay missed between 2000-2005?? Shoulder and elbow problems.

Mea culpa.

I've pulled him off my list until I can see some video of him.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
How about the 15 starts Oswalt missed in 2003?? You have these guys listed as deliveries that won't have arm problems!!!!

From what I recall, at the time the Astros were trying to improve Oswalt's delivery by altering his mechanics. Since they have let him pitch the way he knows how, he has been clean.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Given that they had a different pitching coach for Prior's first season at USC than they did his second I doubt he made any significant modifications in Prior's arm action. USC's pitching coach does like to have pitchers break their hands in a vertical plane but so do a lot of pitching coaches.

Then the problem may go back to Tom House.

From what I have read...

"Mark is the real deal," said Tom House, a longtime major league pitching coach who worked privately with Prior for years. "Of the hard throwers, he's right up there with the (Nolan) Ryans, (Roger) Clemenses."

...House started working with Prior at a relatively young age. I also believe that House has (or had) some form of association with USC.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
House??? is this the same guy who wrote about 7 books and put out about 7 tapes over a 15 year span and then admitted that he was wrong???? He then wrote another book and produced another tape and said that this time he was right!! He used Mark Prior as his model in his new book...nice going Tom...good grief,you then quote what he says and then print it here on the HSBBWeb because you agree with him!!! You agreeing with him does not mean very much......buyer beware.

While I agree that House has been wrong repeatedly, and may have contributed to the destruction of Mark Prior's arm, I have read other research that supports the 80 percent figure.

pain guy

I am just a "dumb" italian baseball guy so please indulge me

What is you background to make these statements that you do such as "my problem" and you are talking about very successful MLB pitchers


Please enlighten us to your background and knowledge


Until such time as to when you enlighten us all I will listen to the posters whom I respect: bbscout, PG et al

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
What is you background to make these statements that you do such as "my problem" and you are talking about very successful MLB pitchers

I have spent the last 2 years reading all of the research behind pitching mechanics, kinesiology, physiology, and injuries. I have about 5 feet of articles, when stacked on end. I have also spent a lot of time comparing 2 groups of pitchers...

1. Those who had long, relatively-injury free careers.
2. Those who had injury-plagued careers.

...looking for differences (mechanical and otherwise) between those two groups.

While my work is still unfinished and controversial, I have been complimented on it and urged to continue this project by...

1. Former professional baseball players (just got an e-mail yesterday).
2. D1 and other coaches.
3. Orthopedic surgeons.
4. Writers like Will Carroll.

Also, a regional cross-checker for a pro team also thinks I may be on to something and has asked me to cross-check all of the pitchers that he sees and evaluate their mechanics. He has also talked to me about doing a presentation to his entire scouting organization in January.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
He's a scout.

A crossdresser.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm watching Dr. Phil as I monitor this site.

I meant crosschecker.

Nice personal attack.

I'm quoting this one so you can't clean it up like you did your previous one.

quote:

My problem with Drysdale isn't that he threw sidearm. Many guys do that and have long careers.

You lost me at "My problem with Drysdale"....

quote:

My problem with Drysdale is with what he's doing in these photos...

My only problem with what hes doing in these photos would be standing in the RH batters box. I pray my sons mechanics develope into something this powerful and intimidating, and I wish mine were.

Chris, you said roughly 10% of HOFers had the M action. I estimate 10% of pitchers as a whole use this M action....Do you see a correlation?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I am just a "dumb" italian baseball guy so please indulge me. What is you background to make these statements that you do such as "my problem" and you are talking about very successful MLB pitchers. Please enlighten us to your background and knowledge.

Here's an e-mail I recently received discussing the Inverted W and my theory of Hyperabduction...

Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder.
In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i,e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology. Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed.
Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren't.
I am not a shoulder guru, certainly not a pitching guru, but am interested in pitching mechanics. Like you, I learned from others while coaching little league/AAU, and agree there is a lot of misinformation out there.

It's e-mails like these, from people who know what they are talking about, that give me the will to put up with all the @#%& that people throw at me.

Painguy, Also, on your site you list Bert Blyleven as a delivery with serious elbow and shoulder problems. Where did you come up with this???? Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues until he was 41 years old. He pitched nearly 5000 innings and had 242 complete games. He was injured one year.....at age 31 he missed most of the season and then came back to pitch 10 more years.

How long did you expect him to pitch? until he was 50?
You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot. Using Blyleven as an example of how not to deliver a baseball is just plain dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Chris, you said roughly 10% of HOFers had the M action. I estimate 10% of pitchers as a whole use this M action....Do you see a correlation?

No, because what I gave you was a SWAG.

Also, HOF membership isn't based solely on the longevity of one's career. For example, Koufax only had 6 really great years.

To do this correctly (e.g. in a scientifically valid manner), you need to compare mechanics to something like total innings pitched, number of days on the DL, or some other measure of longevity.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Painguy, Also, on your site you list Bert Blyleven as a delivery with serious elbow and shoulder problems. Where did you come up with this???? Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues until he was 41 years old. He pitched nearly 5000 innings and had 242 complete games. He was injured one year.....at age 31 he missed most of the season and then came back to pitch 10 more years. How long did you expect him to pitch? until he was 50? You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot. Using Blyleven as an example of how not to deliver a baseball is just plain dumb.

The fact is that Blyleven struggled with elbow problems in 1982 and 1983 and missed much of each season...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blylebe01.shtml

Listen, I'm not trying to impugne the guy's character. If I had a vote, I'd say he probably deserves to be in the HOF.

However, the fact remains that he did have serious elbow problems. As a result, I looked at him to see if I could see any similarities between his mechanics and those of other guys who had elbow problems and see if a pattern exists.

That's what you have to do if you want to study this in a scientific manner.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
What is you background to make these statements that you do such as "my problem" and you are talking about very successful MLB pitchers

I have spent the last 2 years reading all of the research behind pitching mechanics, kinesiology, physiology, and injuries. I have about 5 feet of articles, when stacked on end. I have also spent a lot of time comparing 2 groups of pitchers...

1. Those who had long, relatively-injury free careers.
2. Those who had injury-plagued careers.

...looking for differences (mechanical and otherwise) between those two groups.

While my work is still unfinished and controversial, I have been complimented on it and urged to continue this project by...

1. Former professional baseball players (just got an e-mail yesterday).
2. D1 and other coaches.
3. Orthopedic surgeons.
4. Writers like Will Carroll.

Also, a regional cross-checker for a pro team also thinks I may be on to something and has asked me to cross-check all of the pitchers that he sees and evaluate their mechanics. He has also talked to me about doing a presentation to his entire scouting organization in January.

A regional crosschecker has a huge area and will write up about 150 pitchers before the draft. He will also be on the road 6 out of every seven days and his expenses will run about $3500 per week. To see all of the pitchers he has crosschecked, you will need to have a lot of free time and a nice bank account. The upside is that you can get the air miles and the Marriott points.