So what do you think? What level of velocity is necessary in your high school league, even with "great location"?
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Well if he already is starting to argue with you on your coaching, he's not mature enough to make Varsity. All the other stuff goes right out the window at that point.
Yeah, pretty much. I just didn't want to say that in public. 
I'm probably not qualified to answer the high school question but his velocity numbers are low enough for some very old club ball experience to be applicable.
When I was trying out kids for a 13U club ball team, which typicall uses a 54' pitchers mound, a 63-64 would qualify as a pool game relief pitcher. I did have some kids who were effective at 13U with that velocity, but they had very good off speed pitches to go with the fastball. They were also 6' closer.
There are kids who throw that hard who make their freshmen teams in my neck of the woods, but they tend to be second basemen and not pitchers. There is the occasional kid who will go out there throwing very slow and make it once through the line-up just because the other team is geared for 80-85 and they can't adjust down, stay back, etc. It's usually only good for once through the line-up though.
I'll confess I don't know exactly what your talent pool is, but effective against 11-12 year olds probably doesn't translate to effective against 15-18 year olds anywhere.
When I talked to kids to get a feel, attitude was very important. With any team, having one bad attitude is like a cancer. Sometimes you can control it, sometimes it grows into something worse. That has to be your call.
If you have a try out or camp that involves any kind of live pitching / hitting, put him out there against and see what happens. A few weeks ago I was helping out with my sons 15/16U freshman feeder team and we had a kid who insisted he was a pitcher. I personally had trouble letting him go out there without an L-screen just for safety reasons. I don't know how hard he threw, but at 42, my BP fastball looks quick compared to whatever he was throwing and I don't set up at 60'. He was probably 58-62 or so.
He kept bugging us though, so when we got into a blow-out, we put him out there. He gave up 5 extra base hits mixed in with a few walks. After about 8 batters and no outs and some tape measure shots, he looked over with a pleading look for me to come get him.
Sometimes they just have to see for themselves.
When I was trying out kids for a 13U club ball team, which typicall uses a 54' pitchers mound, a 63-64 would qualify as a pool game relief pitcher. I did have some kids who were effective at 13U with that velocity, but they had very good off speed pitches to go with the fastball. They were also 6' closer.
There are kids who throw that hard who make their freshmen teams in my neck of the woods, but they tend to be second basemen and not pitchers. There is the occasional kid who will go out there throwing very slow and make it once through the line-up just because the other team is geared for 80-85 and they can't adjust down, stay back, etc. It's usually only good for once through the line-up though.
I'll confess I don't know exactly what your talent pool is, but effective against 11-12 year olds probably doesn't translate to effective against 15-18 year olds anywhere.
When I talked to kids to get a feel, attitude was very important. With any team, having one bad attitude is like a cancer. Sometimes you can control it, sometimes it grows into something worse. That has to be your call.
If you have a try out or camp that involves any kind of live pitching / hitting, put him out there against and see what happens. A few weeks ago I was helping out with my sons 15/16U freshman feeder team and we had a kid who insisted he was a pitcher. I personally had trouble letting him go out there without an L-screen just for safety reasons. I don't know how hard he threw, but at 42, my BP fastball looks quick compared to whatever he was throwing and I don't set up at 60'. He was probably 58-62 or so.
He kept bugging us though, so when we got into a blow-out, we put him out there. He gave up 5 extra base hits mixed in with a few walks. After about 8 batters and no outs and some tape measure shots, he looked over with a pleading look for me to come get him.
Sometimes they just have to see for themselves.
I think the kid is right except the arguing. Judge him on tryouts and hang the radar gun in the closet.
Have a talk with him about the attitude but at the same time he is standing up for himself. There is just a right and wrong way to do it. Isn't that what HS is about. Teach the kid to show respect when he dissagrees and discuss his point of view. What you consider nicely might be a kick in the head to a freshman.
Have a talk with him about the attitude but at the same time he is standing up for himself. There is just a right and wrong way to do it. Isn't that what HS is about. Teach the kid to show respect when he dissagrees and discuss his point of view. What you consider nicely might be a kick in the head to a freshman.
quote:What you consider nicely might be a kick in the head to a freshman.
That's where the 'maturity', mentioned above, comes in to play. Some have it some don't.
My ultimate question again was simply this:
So what do you think? What level of velocity is necessary in your high school league, even with "great location"? In fact, I'm going to delete all of that post except for that question, since it seems to be clouding the issue.
I don't think the level of velocity is the issue. Can he pitch ?
My son was not a hard thrower and played varity BB as a freshman and was the MVP of the team. The level of ball produced several D1 players as well as other colleges. He pitched all the big games and velocity was never an issue. One pitcher was a closer at UALR for 4 years and afew players he pitched against are in pro ball. I actually do not remember his velocity because no one gunned him as a fre4shman. He just out performed everyone. Our pitchers in HS were limited to 12 outs so that guys like him and David Davidson (Pirates) wouldn't dominate the games. As an elite player he threw complete games and as a 17U threw 4 back to back complete shutouts inclyding one 15K no hitter. That was against 19U elite teams because there was no 17U division. They only had 4 17U teams. A HS frreshman according to what others on here have said would have trouble throwing strikes ???
HS ? How mature are the freshmen ? Teach him.
My son was not a hard thrower and played varity BB as a freshman and was the MVP of the team. The level of ball produced several D1 players as well as other colleges. He pitched all the big games and velocity was never an issue. One pitcher was a closer at UALR for 4 years and afew players he pitched against are in pro ball. I actually do not remember his velocity because no one gunned him as a fre4shman. He just out performed everyone. Our pitchers in HS were limited to 12 outs so that guys like him and David Davidson (Pirates) wouldn't dominate the games. As an elite player he threw complete games and as a 17U threw 4 back to back complete shutouts inclyding one 15K no hitter. That was against 19U elite teams because there was no 17U division. They only had 4 17U teams. A HS frreshman according to what others on here have said would have trouble throwing strikes ???
HS ? How mature are the freshmen ? Teach him.
BHD, forget about the one kid. Look at the general question.
You say it doesn't matter, but surely it does. How many kids throwing LOW 60s are pitching on their high school varsity teams regardless of 'location'?
There's a point at which location without movement, and location without velocity is going to get jacked all over the place. If the ball is coming in so slowly that the hitter can adjust to in-out-up-down, what's it matter?
64 with no movement and no other pitches to offset timing? IMO, 'location' doesn't much matter at that point - varsity hitters will have ample time to react regardless of where that ball comes in.
Again, I'm saying 72+ with the ability to locate, countered with a reasonable BB and a nice CH is necessary to pitch in the HS varsity programs WHERE I LIVE. I'd like to know what others think in other parts of the country (or your country).
You say it doesn't matter, but surely it does. How many kids throwing LOW 60s are pitching on their high school varsity teams regardless of 'location'?
There's a point at which location without movement, and location without velocity is going to get jacked all over the place. If the ball is coming in so slowly that the hitter can adjust to in-out-up-down, what's it matter?
64 with no movement and no other pitches to offset timing? IMO, 'location' doesn't much matter at that point - varsity hitters will have ample time to react regardless of where that ball comes in.
Again, I'm saying 72+ with the ability to locate, countered with a reasonable BB and a nice CH is necessary to pitch in the HS varsity programs WHERE I LIVE. I'd like to know what others think in other parts of the country (or your country).
quote:Originally posted by Krakatoa:
Again, I'm saying 72+ with the ability to locate, countered with a reasonable BB and a nice CH is necessary to pitch in the HS varsity programs WHERE I LIVE. I'd like to know what others think in other parts of the country (or your country).
I would agree with what you are saying as the minimum in our area. Those crafty pitchers sometimes do very well against the "power teams" that love a 85+ fastball.
I would say that most of the teams we faced 1 and 2 starters were guys that had two pitches and fastballs in the low to mid 80's. High 80's and 90's guys were not the norm.
In SoCal D1 baseball mid to upper 80's will get raked without good OS. Although you can still play if you pitch with high 70's and REALLY good OS.
Throw the kid a bone and have him try out. Have him throw in a scrimmage or bp. If he gets hammered, he'll walk. If he gets hammered and wants to come back. Maybe he has the fire, tell him where he needs to be and more importantly how to get there.
Throw the kid a bone and have him try out. Have him throw in a scrimmage or bp. If he gets hammered, he'll walk. If he gets hammered and wants to come back. Maybe he has the fire, tell him where he needs to be and more importantly how to get there.
So ther's no confusion. That would be SoCal HS D1 baseball.
There have been just two guys in our program over the past few years who could throw upper 80s and both have gone on to play college ball.
Most of the kids we get, and that we see, are low to mid 70s, but the better ones mix good location with some decent off-speed stuff.
Most of the kids we get, and that we see, are low to mid 70s, but the better ones mix good location with some decent off-speed stuff.
quote:Maybe he has the fire, tell him where he needs to be and more importantly how to get there.
This has been done. The kid is largely unreceptive (defensive, eye-rolling, "my old coach said", etc.) End of story on this kid. I don't want to talk about the kid anymore. Sorry I ever mentioned this kid. The kid is not relevant to the essential question. Our interaction was just a springboard for this question:
At What Velocity Does Pitch 'Location' NOT Matter at the varsity level?
My answer: any fastball with a 6 in front of it.
Maybe it's a stupid discussion-starter. I'm going to bed (it's 2:50am in my part of the world).
Good nite.
Here are my points. HS is for teaching kids. This guy may not have been taught how to pitch. If his mechanics are bad he may need some adjustments but in any case let him tryout after a talk about respect and how to deal with issues he doesn't agree with.
If he tries out and fails then that is life but at least try to teach him. You can then say you were fair and gave him a shot.
My son at 16 faced a Louisiana team who had won the state title He was 16 and killed them. My guess was he was hitting 78-80mph. 3 of the players players went to LSU and just graduated last year. I always laugh when I hear people say stuff like you have to throw high 80s or you will get hammered. This is totally inaccurate.
I see kids all the time that think they are better than they are. Let him prove it.
If he tries out and fails then that is life but at least try to teach him. You can then say you were fair and gave him a shot.
My son at 16 faced a Louisiana team who had won the state title He was 16 and killed them. My guess was he was hitting 78-80mph. 3 of the players players went to LSU and just graduated last year. I always laugh when I hear people say stuff like you have to throw high 80s or you will get hammered. This is totally inaccurate.
I see kids all the time that think they are better than they are. Let him prove it.
4thGen plays in a very strong conference. I was gunning a kid last year throwing 92-93 with a hard slider and he was getting whacked all over the lot. Another lefty, pitching at D1 this year, was sitting at 87-88 when he gave up 4 jacks and 10 runs in the first two innigs. So I'm not sure there is a velocity above which command does not matter.
How soft can you toss and get away with it? I look at command, movement and velocity as three of the most important variables. The more you have of one, the less you can live with of the others. Composure, competitiveness, athleticisim, deception and intellegence also matter. A kid throwing 70-72 might be able to get our HS hitters out if they had great command and movement. I'm not sure they could be counted on to get around the lineup more then once, but they could be effective in spots.
How soft can you toss and get away with it? I look at command, movement and velocity as three of the most important variables. The more you have of one, the less you can live with of the others. Composure, competitiveness, athleticisim, deception and intellegence also matter. A kid throwing 70-72 might be able to get our HS hitters out if they had great command and movement. I'm not sure they could be counted on to get around the lineup more then once, but they could be effective in spots.
No matter how much velocity you have or do not have you always need location and control
Control IS talent.
Without control; work on your stick and play another position.
Without control; work on your stick and play another position.
I'm with TR on this one because you have to have location no matter your speed. HS baseball is all over the place in terms of talent and discipline.
If you got a guy throwing 90 MPH who has no control and he faces a team with no discipline at the plate then he will be successful. He will have a high number of strikeouts because the hitters will end up swinging at pitches out of the zone. But if this same pitcher faces a team who has discipline then they will rip him a new one. They are going to take their walks and put pressure on him to throw across the plate. Now that they are getting hittable pitches they are going to get crushed.
You take a guy throwing 75 who can hit his spots but has no other pitch he is going to get hit hard (usually). In order for this pitcher to be successful he has to have other pitches to make his fastball "look" faster. In other words if he throws 75 and has a 67 changeup then his fastball will probably look 80ish.
The harder you throw the more mistakes you can get away with against poor to average teams but a good team will get you. The softer you throw the less mistakes you can get away with.
If you got a guy throwing 90 MPH who has no control and he faces a team with no discipline at the plate then he will be successful. He will have a high number of strikeouts because the hitters will end up swinging at pitches out of the zone. But if this same pitcher faces a team who has discipline then they will rip him a new one. They are going to take their walks and put pressure on him to throw across the plate. Now that they are getting hittable pitches they are going to get crushed.
You take a guy throwing 75 who can hit his spots but has no other pitch he is going to get hit hard (usually). In order for this pitcher to be successful he has to have other pitches to make his fastball "look" faster. In other words if he throws 75 and has a 67 changeup then his fastball will probably look 80ish.
The harder you throw the more mistakes you can get away with against poor to average teams but a good team will get you. The softer you throw the less mistakes you can get away with.
quote:The harder you throw the more mistakes you can get away with against poor to average teams but a good team will get you. The softer you throw the less mistakes you can get away with.
IMHO, the biggest advantage a hard thrower has.
My son's philosophy is you are only as good as your next pitch, with that mind set you would think that controlling "that pitch" at the "effective" velocity is what counts.
Krak: I'm pretty sure, that up to this point in this thread, that nobody has yet attempted to answer the question you actually asked! It doesn't seem all that complicated! I can sense your frustration.
I agree with you. A fastball in the 60's, it probably doesn't matter how well placed, or even how much movement on it, or even how good his other pitch is. It is slow enough so that hitters will be able to adjust.
I do think that a kid can do well in the low 70's though. My son had a teammate who threw VERY successfully in his soph through senior years ranging in the low to mid 70's. He was league pitcher of the year in his soph and jr years. He had two different curves and could place his fastball.
So my answer is essentially same as yours. Anything under 70 and I think it doesn't matter how good his control or how good his second pitch (unless that second pitch is a 75 MPH curve!)
Totally agree Danny. I would rather have a pitcher who has a better chance to get away with a bad pitch than a guy who can't.
quote:Originally posted by Krakatoa:
So what do you think? What level of velocity is necessary in your high school league, even with "great location"?
1 MILLION miles per hour! BooHaaHaa!!!
I don't think he got an answer because no one knows exactly what velocity is correct. You may venture an opinion but there are always exceptions. Give the guy a chance and try and fix what may be fixable.
I agree control is the key, but mid-low 70's would be a cutoff point. Without velocity, having an alternative pitch is also very helpful for success.
But it is also based on what type of competition you are going to face, if the league you play in is not very strong, then a pitcher that does not have much in terms of velocity may well be successful (but then again, they may only be able to hit 60’s), where a league with good hitters that can adjust to slow speeds they may not be successful.
Another key would be coachability and projection of will he be able to increase his speed over the long term and will he be better than others you could have on the team.
But it is also based on what type of competition you are going to face, if the league you play in is not very strong, then a pitcher that does not have much in terms of velocity may well be successful (but then again, they may only be able to hit 60’s), where a league with good hitters that can adjust to slow speeds they may not be successful.
Another key would be coachability and projection of will he be able to increase his speed over the long term and will he be better than others you could have on the team.
Krak,
Not sure what the exact velocity might be in order to be successful. If there is no velocity, no movement, no off speed pitches and no control, it would be impossible to be successful.
When it comes to velocity alone being the pitchers strong point, I've always thought that in order to be successful that pitcher would need rare velocity. In the Big Leagues that would be triple digits. The guy who throws harder than what the hitter has ever seen has a gigantic advantage. Some also believe the same holds true at very low velocities. While understanding the point, it is easier to get ready for low velocity and hard to get ready for triple digit velocity.
I tend to agree with BHD regarding that young kid. Of course, we don't know the situation as to whether you can actually keep this kid. What I do know is that the greatest accomplishment a coach can have is to change a young kids attitude and life, for the better. Some kids need more help than others. That doesn't have anything to do with velocity or your question, but maybe something even more important.
Nothing quite like taking the Ahole or troubled kid and teaching him to become an outstanding person. That is better than helping to develop someone into a great player.
Once again, not sure this is even possible in your situation. But I have had kids I couldn't stand at first turn into kids that I loved. Some of these have turned into life long relationships.
Sorry, don't mean to preach. Just trying to give another perspective FWIW. If you have to cut... you have to cut. I always hated that more than anything.
Not sure what the exact velocity might be in order to be successful. If there is no velocity, no movement, no off speed pitches and no control, it would be impossible to be successful.
When it comes to velocity alone being the pitchers strong point, I've always thought that in order to be successful that pitcher would need rare velocity. In the Big Leagues that would be triple digits. The guy who throws harder than what the hitter has ever seen has a gigantic advantage. Some also believe the same holds true at very low velocities. While understanding the point, it is easier to get ready for low velocity and hard to get ready for triple digit velocity.
I tend to agree with BHD regarding that young kid. Of course, we don't know the situation as to whether you can actually keep this kid. What I do know is that the greatest accomplishment a coach can have is to change a young kids attitude and life, for the better. Some kids need more help than others. That doesn't have anything to do with velocity or your question, but maybe something even more important.
Nothing quite like taking the Ahole or troubled kid and teaching him to become an outstanding person. That is better than helping to develop someone into a great player.
Once again, not sure this is even possible in your situation. But I have had kids I couldn't stand at first turn into kids that I loved. Some of these have turned into life long relationships.
Sorry, don't mean to preach. Just trying to give another perspective FWIW. If you have to cut... you have to cut. I always hated that more than anything.
Great point once again PG and I also agree...it is easier to get ready for low velocity and hard to get ready for triple digit velocity.
During the 2007 18U WWBA at East Cobb we (17U team) faced a talented 18U Knoxville Yard team that was absolutely loaded with college talent. When I saw there starting pitcher warming up on the mound, heard the mitt popping, and 20+ scouts whispering I KNEW we were up against greatness. He was hitting 93-94 every throw! I loved seeing that! But at the same time I knew our young 17U team was about to be in a serious dog fight and dreaded it for them. When I saw my son get up and start throwing I swallowed VERY hard! Had the coach not seen that we were facing miniature David Wrights and Albert Pujols?! Did he NOT remember that younggun might only hit 83-84 at best which is all day BP to these boys?! I could barely stand to watch the slaughter that was about to transpire!
Fast forward to the end of the fifth inning. Younggun had found his nasty curveball (thank God!) and he 1-hit them for 5 innings. I couldn't believe my eyes! His rinky dink fastball LOOKED much faster than it was and it set up his deuce quite nicely. Some of his fastballs were even questionable to me across the plate but the Ump stayed consistent on both sides. We tied them 1-1 (he got a no decision) and essentially ruined their championship hopes for that tournament.
Velocity had absolutely NO bearing that day for younggun. Had he had the capability of throwing harder that day I'm afraid he just might have been lit up. Their fly ball outs with wooden bats that day would still be orbiting if hit with aluminum!
During the 2007 18U WWBA at East Cobb we (17U team) faced a talented 18U Knoxville Yard team that was absolutely loaded with college talent. When I saw there starting pitcher warming up on the mound, heard the mitt popping, and 20+ scouts whispering I KNEW we were up against greatness. He was hitting 93-94 every throw! I loved seeing that! But at the same time I knew our young 17U team was about to be in a serious dog fight and dreaded it for them. When I saw my son get up and start throwing I swallowed VERY hard! Had the coach not seen that we were facing miniature David Wrights and Albert Pujols?! Did he NOT remember that younggun might only hit 83-84 at best which is all day BP to these boys?! I could barely stand to watch the slaughter that was about to transpire!
Fast forward to the end of the fifth inning. Younggun had found his nasty curveball (thank God!) and he 1-hit them for 5 innings. I couldn't believe my eyes! His rinky dink fastball LOOKED much faster than it was and it set up his deuce quite nicely. Some of his fastballs were even questionable to me across the plate but the Ump stayed consistent on both sides. We tied them 1-1 (he got a no decision) and essentially ruined their championship hopes for that tournament.
Velocity had absolutely NO bearing that day for younggun. Had he had the capability of throwing harder that day I'm afraid he just might have been lit up. Their fly ball outs with wooden bats that day would still be orbiting if hit with aluminum!
YG my son's team faced a LHP from Moon Township PA. He was hitting mid 90s. We were a 17U team and they were 18 U. It got us a spot IN a WS. We beat him 2-0. He was drafted by the Pirates that year and the last time I looked he was still there. He actually was a friend of David Davidson with the Pirates. When I asked David if he knew him he said he had him at his home for a week but had just left.
quote:I don't think he got an answer because no one knows exactly what velocity is correct. You may venture an opinion but there are always exceptions.
He was asking for our opinions on what is the minimum velocity required in your high school leagues to be effective. Not a hard question. Not really sure why nobody could focus in on the question actually asked.
Velocity will always be the elusive trait many players and parent dream of. Mention velocity and an army of SPP (slow pitcher parents) rise in unison like radar guns at East Cost Pro. 
I think high 80s upward is about where many (not all) high school hitters start losing their plate discipline on the FB. Of course all this is relative to the level of baseball played. When a pitcher reaches the low 90s the HS players unaffected by that velocity lessens. Tack on about 4 mph for good college competition and early MILB players before pure velocity makes a huge impact and dial it up to triple digits (or close to) for upper MILB and MLB players but even then at that level the pitcher has to have a reputation for being able to locate his pitches.
I think high 80s upward is about where many (not all) high school hitters start losing their plate discipline on the FB. Of course all this is relative to the level of baseball played. When a pitcher reaches the low 90s the HS players unaffected by that velocity lessens. Tack on about 4 mph for good college competition and early MILB players before pure velocity makes a huge impact and dial it up to triple digits (or close to) for upper MILB and MLB players but even then at that level the pitcher has to have a reputation for being able to locate his pitches.
Randy Jones was a very successful major league pitcher and never touched 80. Interesting Article
I have found that many down play what they do not have. They tend to place more value on what they do have. The fact is a pitcher needs to have a certain amount of velo at his level to keep hitters honest. And he needs to be capable of commanding it. The more velo the less fine you have to be. The less velo the finer you better be. It all comes down to the level of the competition you are facing.
YoungGunDad velocity had everything to do with your sons success imo on that day. 83-84 behind that off speed stuff was enough to keep those hitters off balance. What would have happened if he was 73-74 on that fast ball that day? I bet it would have been a lot different outcome.
YoungGunDad velocity had everything to do with your sons success imo on that day. 83-84 behind that off speed stuff was enough to keep those hitters off balance. What would have happened if he was 73-74 on that fast ball that day? I bet it would have been a lot different outcome.
quote:Originally posted by Krakatoa:
So what do you think? What level of velocity is necessary in your high school league, even with "great location"?
In general league play I would say mid 70's. For a play-off pither you better be in the high 70's to low 80's. (for SoCal at least)
It is very difficult to seperate location and movement, the slower you throw the more movement you better have. So most pitchers I have seen working in the mid 70's with any success have good location and movement. If you throw a flat FB on the corners you will still be bammered by good hitting teams.
Maybe I don't fully understand the question. There are so many variables. I believe that even 60's can be effective with movement, location, AND a deceptive delivery. Different arm angles, etc.. However that is something that I would not encourage with young pitchers. It is too hard to repeat arm angles and delivery. That being said. This is strictly an intellectual exercise on my part. I am sure someone in the 60's probably would not pitch on my team unless they did those things already. I surely would not try to teach them how to do it. They would have trouble breaking into the lineup in any case. jmo
I live in So. Fl and I can assure you that the hs pitchers will all be 75 or higher.
I live in So. Fl and I can assure you that the hs pitchers will all be 75 or higher.
quote:Coach May quote:
The fact is a pitcher needs to have a certain amount of velo at his level to keep hitters honest. And he needs to be capable of commanding it. The more velo the less fine you have to be. The less velo the finer you better be.
Coach, I think that is true at any level and your explanation helps me understand where my sons thinking was coming from when he says.
quote:......controlling "that pitch" at the "effective" velocity is what counts.
As Fungo says, something north of 85 will upset the timing of most high school hitters so much that most strike locations are effective when mixed with the normal assortment of breaking pitches. Mix in a little arm side run or tailing action and it is usually a short night for the other team.
Last year my son's team had a hard time with one pitcher in particular. He's a lefty and he gave them fits in school ball and in the summer. If he threw with everything he had (which he never does) he might get up to about 82. His normal, "cruising" fastball is probably closer to 75. What made him so effective was his offspeed. He has a nice curve that he can throw for a strike and a great changeup that LOOKS like he's throwing it for a strike. Because his offspeed was so good, when he did throw a fastball our kids were often late on it.
If this kid had to rely on his fastball only, I don't think you could position it anywhere in the strike zone without it getting hammered. In my opinion, a fastball with a 7 as the first number would still not be consistently effective in HS ball regardless of placement.
If this kid had to rely on his fastball only, I don't think you could position it anywhere in the strike zone without it getting hammered. In my opinion, a fastball with a 7 as the first number would still not be consistently effective in HS ball regardless of placement.
quote:Coach May quote:
The fact is a pitcher needs to have a certain amount of velo at his level to keep hitters honest. And he needs to be capable of commanding it. The more velo the less fine you have to be. The less velo the finer you better be.
Coach May, very succinct and right on the money IMHO. I think that this equation, when talking high school level, comes in to play in the low to mid-70s, and any lower velo than that the 'location' becomes almost insignificant (other than getting it across the plate), especially when there is no other pitch in the repertoire.
In general, in our league low 80s and up for a rhp and mid to upper 70s for a lhp will compete. However, low 90s will get 80% of the hitters out no matter where the pitch is if it's over the plate and sometimes even if it isn't.
On the other hand, we had a team in the Regional playoffs that beat the number 5 and 8 ranked teams in the state with a kid that threw a 62mph fastball, a 58mph knuckleball and an "ephus" pitch that I'm not sure even registered on the radar gun. However, when the team got to the state final 8 and the team they played had the opportunity to practice against "lob ball" they got beat in 5 innings 12-2.
On the other hand, we had a team in the Regional playoffs that beat the number 5 and 8 ranked teams in the state with a kid that threw a 62mph fastball, a 58mph knuckleball and an "ephus" pitch that I'm not sure even registered on the radar gun. However, when the team got to the state final 8 and the team they played had the opportunity to practice against "lob ball" they got beat in 5 innings 12-2.
quote:Nothing quite like taking the Ahole or troubled kid and teaching him to become an outstanding person. That is better than helping to develop someone into a great player.
Once again, not sure this is even possible in your situation. But I have had kids I couldn't stand at first turn into kids that I loved. Some of these have turned into life long relationships.
PG,
I got the pleasure of going through this exact scenario as a Coach for a 12 year old All Star team. We had a kid that was 6' tall and could throw 80mph, but had no idea where it was going and his attitude was about the same. This was a kid that if he got taken off the mound during the season would kick his glove all the way to the dugout. He had no rules and no boundries in his life.
By the end of the 4 weeks we had him, he was a different player and person. All it took was discipline, a sense of being part of a "team", praise (when deserved) and, of course, the fact that his Parents wouldn't let him quit.
I loved that kid to death and I couldn't stand him 4 weeks earlier. When we lost the final game (which he pitched) I hugged him as he sobbed on my shoulder. 4 weeks earlier, he wouldn't have cared one way or another. The thing is, he wasn't upset because he felt he lost, he was upset because he felt like he let the "team" and me down. That was huge, but I just told him, "it's just part of baseball, as long as you and they know that you gave it your best, everything's good, I'm very proud of you".