This has already been said other ways, but its delta speed that is effective.
I remember watching Pedro Martinez in his prime, FB 95-96, slider 88-90, change 80-84, curve 78-82. A hitter had no chance when he could throw two pitches for strikes on any given day.
A pitcher who is smart will do better. The LHP throwing high 80's and gave up 10 runs probably was up in the zone and never thought to himself, "Time for plan B" and started them off with a CB or change to mix it up.
Can I say with 100% certainty a kid throwing in the 60's can't get people out? How does Micah Owings do it in the majors at 85? If he's smart, can really change speeds and hit location, who can say? I'd just put that L-screen up if he pitches live against high school hitters, because he might need it.
On another note, hard throwers can get away with more because the reaction time is less. A 75 / 70 /65 guy has to be sharper than a 93/ 88/ 83 guy because there simply is less time to identify and adjust. Doesn't mean the 93 guy doesn't have to throw strikes, just means he might be able to get away with more mistakes.
Hi people!
I have been reading this thread with interest. I understand that higher velocity allows pitchers to get away with more location mistakes.......but.....
I have a RHP who tops out at 68-70 mph. NCAA DIII, last year he had a record of 8-1. He started the team's first game in the DIII World Series last May against Johns Hopkins, who led all of DIII in batting average and runs scored (going into the World Series). The kid threw ten innings, gave up two runs in a no decisions.
Don't ever count any kid out due to preconceived ideas about minimum velocity.
I have been reading this thread with interest. I understand that higher velocity allows pitchers to get away with more location mistakes.......but.....
I have a RHP who tops out at 68-70 mph. NCAA DIII, last year he had a record of 8-1. He started the team's first game in the DIII World Series last May against Johns Hopkins, who led all of DIII in batting average and runs scored (going into the World Series). The kid threw ten innings, gave up two runs in a no decisions.
Don't ever count any kid out due to preconceived ideas about minimum velocity.
Grateful,
Your point goes to mine. If the kid is smart, can mix speeds, hit location and keep the other team off balance, who's to say he can't be effective?
If I could stero-type your 68-70 kid for a moment, I'd bet he isn't a dumb kid, he probably can change speeds and he probably can throw that 68 mph fastball for location. He probably didn't throw too many thigh high in the middle of the plate.
Of course there are other factors, nothing helps like a big ball park, a cold day, keeping the ball down. I've actually seen kids be effective around here in some of the big spring training parks (350' lines, 385' alleys, 420' center) by actually throwing the ball up and getting some fly balls with a strong OF. The look on a HS hitter's face when he hits a 400' can of corn is priceless.
I'm sure we've all heard the expression, "If you throw hard, you better throw REALLY hard. If you throw soft, you better throw REALLY soft."
Your kid, again stero-typing, is probably a pitcher and not a thrower.
The kid in question sounds like he might be missing a few things between the ears, but who knows.
Let him go out there against live hitters and see how he does. If he ends up kicking his glove back to the dugout, you know. If he gets the big boys out, you know.
Your point goes to mine. If the kid is smart, can mix speeds, hit location and keep the other team off balance, who's to say he can't be effective?
If I could stero-type your 68-70 kid for a moment, I'd bet he isn't a dumb kid, he probably can change speeds and he probably can throw that 68 mph fastball for location. He probably didn't throw too many thigh high in the middle of the plate.
Of course there are other factors, nothing helps like a big ball park, a cold day, keeping the ball down. I've actually seen kids be effective around here in some of the big spring training parks (350' lines, 385' alleys, 420' center) by actually throwing the ball up and getting some fly balls with a strong OF. The look on a HS hitter's face when he hits a 400' can of corn is priceless.
I'm sure we've all heard the expression, "If you throw hard, you better throw REALLY hard. If you throw soft, you better throw REALLY soft."
Your kid, again stero-typing, is probably a pitcher and not a thrower.
The kid in question sounds like he might be missing a few things between the ears, but who knows.
Let him go out there against live hitters and see how he does. If he ends up kicking his glove back to the dugout, you know. If he gets the big boys out, you know.
quote:How does Micah Owings do it in the majors at 85?
JMoff,
Is Micah Owings throwing only 85 these days? We got him up to mid 90s when he was in high school with East Cobb in the summer) and low 90s consistently in college.
You stole the words right out of my mouth. I remember seeing him at Ga Tech in the mid 90's. Oh by the way he can mash as well.
My appoligies, I've confused my Diamondbacks (and now a Red) in the off season.
I meant Doug Davis and not Micah Owings.
Doug Davis makes you wonder how he does it with such low velocity.
..and Micah Owings makes you wonder why all pitcher's shouldn't be allowed to hit.
I meant Doug Davis and not Micah Owings.
Doug Davis makes you wonder how he does it with such low velocity.
..and Micah Owings makes you wonder why all pitcher's shouldn't be allowed to hit.
bobbleheaddoll said: I don't think he got an answer because no one knows exactly what velocity is correct. You may venture an opinion but there are always exceptions. Give the guy a chance and try and fix what may be fixable.
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Conjecture is not the same as not knowing the correct velocity. The answer to that is a velocity that gets batters out and gives your team a chance to win more games than it loses. These anecdotal measureables are well known to most bb fans.
I had a pitcher threw in the 70's but had a drop-off-the-table curveball and could locate it so he threw it where no batter could get the break on the ball. Everytime they swung at his curve, they missed.
He threw many shutouts and no-hitters but quit bb to play football.
Success can breed contempt for the game as it no longer provides a challenge and a kid can get bored with the whole thing. Seen that happen.
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Conjecture is not the same as not knowing the correct velocity. The answer to that is a velocity that gets batters out and gives your team a chance to win more games than it loses. These anecdotal measureables are well known to most bb fans.
I had a pitcher threw in the 70's but had a drop-off-the-table curveball and could locate it so he threw it where no batter could get the break on the ball. Everytime they swung at his curve, they missed.
He threw many shutouts and no-hitters but quit bb to play football.
Success can breed contempt for the game as it no longer provides a challenge and a kid can get bored with the whole thing. Seen that happen.
quote:Conjecture is not the same as not knowing the correct velocity. The answer to that is a velocity that gets batters out and gives your team a chance to win more games than it loses. These anecdotal measureables are well known to most bb fans.
What is that velocity? There was a pitcher in the world series throwing fastballs in the 70s. In 20 career postseason games, Chad Bradford has posted a 0.46 ERA, allowing just one run.
So what is the lowest velocity in order to be successful in high school?
PG I just don't think there is an answer for that question because there are too many varibles. After reading over this thread again I have noticed a trend of people coming on here defending the soft thrower. It goes back to what Coach May said
Soft throwers can, have been and will be successful in baseball. In fact there will be more of them than there will hard throwers.
Baseball is going to seek the guys who bring it and the softer throwers will always have to "fight" for respect. But what it boils down to is both have to throw effective strikes.
quote:I have found that many down play what they do not have. They tend to place more value on what they do have. The fact is a pitcher needs to have a certain amount of velo at his level to keep hitters honest. And he needs to be capable of commanding it. The more velo the less fine you have to be. The less velo the finer you better be. It all comes down to the level of the competition you are facing.
Soft throwers can, have been and will be successful in baseball. In fact there will be more of them than there will hard throwers.
Baseball is going to seek the guys who bring it and the softer throwers will always have to "fight" for respect. But what it boils down to is both have to throw effective strikes.
On the Micah Owings front. I think he has a conditioning issue. The kid is great, but he ran out of gas after two months in the rotation the last two years. After he sat out 2-4 weeks, he would come back with the old lower 90's velocity and be very effective. He liked to challenge hitters. He couldn't get away with it at 86 or so up in the zone. He would get it up and they would hit it out.
I def miss him in our lineup. Cinncinnati got a great deal.
I def miss him in our lineup. Cinncinnati got a great deal.
The best current example of a successfull soft tosser is Jamie Moyer. He won 16 games this year with a fast ball between 78-82. But obviously he hits his spots and knows how to pitch.
But, when he doesn't hit his spots or doesn't get the close strike calls he can have a short night.
Like others have said, he has less room for error than a teammate throwing 95.
But, when he doesn't hit his spots or doesn't get the close strike calls he can have a short night.
Like others have said, he has less room for error than a teammate throwing 95.
I don't think anyone is questioning the importance of velocity. The question is this... At What LOWER-end Velocity Does Pitch 'Location' NOT Matter?
Seems like we are talking about fastball velocity and taking things like movement, changing speeds, other pitches, deception, etc. out of the equation... which leaves us with just velocity and location to consider.
The answer to that exact question is.... Unknown!IMO
But if a pitcher has nothing to offer except velocity I doubt throwing in the 60s or 70s would make any difference. On the other hand if one of them had great location (the ability to hit his spots consistently) all four corners and stayed away from the middle of the plate, that's the one I would take. You can watch BP and see the difference between the BP pitcher who is consistently down the middle and the BP pitcher who moves the ball around. Not many hitters prefer a high inside pitch or a low outside pitch. Not even in BP.
All that said, there are many important things besides velocity that will work. However, velocity is king! All we have to do is follow the draft each year and we get a reminder. The handful of soft tossers who have been successful isn't enough to change the way the decision makers think. Especially considering that usually those successful soft throwers were throwing much harder when they were younger.
Seems like we are talking about fastball velocity and taking things like movement, changing speeds, other pitches, deception, etc. out of the equation... which leaves us with just velocity and location to consider.
The answer to that exact question is.... Unknown!IMO
But if a pitcher has nothing to offer except velocity I doubt throwing in the 60s or 70s would make any difference. On the other hand if one of them had great location (the ability to hit his spots consistently) all four corners and stayed away from the middle of the plate, that's the one I would take. You can watch BP and see the difference between the BP pitcher who is consistently down the middle and the BP pitcher who moves the ball around. Not many hitters prefer a high inside pitch or a low outside pitch. Not even in BP.
All that said, there are many important things besides velocity that will work. However, velocity is king! All we have to do is follow the draft each year and we get a reminder. The handful of soft tossers who have been successful isn't enough to change the way the decision makers think. Especially considering that usually those successful soft throwers were throwing much harder when they were younger.
I would think there has to be a point that, no matter what location, a HS coach is not going to even consider a kid on the mound b/c of a lack of velocity.
JT, the only exception to that rule (and our coach did it) was when we had a guy throwing pretty hard against a good hitting team and they would bring in the mid 60 or low 70 guy to screw the timing up of the hitters. Usually worked for a few innings.
PG I agree and there really is no velocity that is the bottom level at which you can say the kid won't be successful in HS.
I would also add that many hard throwers in MLB often back off their velocity realizing that they can pitch and extend their longevity.
I also think MLB is more concerned about velo than college and HS.
I would also add that many hard throwers in MLB often back off their velocity realizing that they can pitch and extend their longevity.
I also think MLB is more concerned about velo than college and HS.
quote:Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
JT, the only exception to that rule (and our coach did it) was when we had a guy throwing pretty hard against a good hitting team and they would bring in the mid 60 or low 70 guy to screw the timing up of the hitters. Usually worked for a few innings.
I can relate to that story. When my son started a game they would put in a soft tosser to finish the game and it really messed up their timing, I think that soft tosser had a better record than most of the pitchers on the team! This did not translate to him being a better pitcher than the others, just the guy who was so slow he threw them off.
I thought an interesting read and food for thought in either clarifying or confusing the issue even further...depending on which side of the issue you come down on. Stu Miller threw an avg speeds in the 40's and had a fastball that might hit 70 with a strong Canclestick Park following wind on the high end of one of his good days. But this article covers a great deal of conjecture and makes variables more understandable...enjoy..
April 09, 1990
Finding A New Angle On Baseball
Penny Ward Moser
Here's the perfect book to enlighten all your friends who think that Magnus force is a TV show currently in afternoon reruns: The Physics of Baseball (Harper & Row, $7.95), by Robert Kemp Adair, Sterling Professor of Physics at Yale.
In a delightful preface, we learn how the late Bart Giamatti, who had been president of Yale before becoming president of the National League and then commissioner of baseball, inspired the work by asking his former colleague to advise him on some of the more technical elements of baseball. In return, Giamatti appointed Adair "Physicist to the National League"—a job with no pay but with, Adair says, "a title that absolutely charmed the 10-year-old boy who I hope will always be a part of me."
The Physics of Baseball dazzles one with information and offers a tough, brain-stretching read. Adair says the book was "written for fun" and "is not meant as a scholarly compendium of research on baseball." Egad, if this is fun, I shudder to think of what he considers scholarly writing.
To be fair, there are some very fun facts, but I felt like a sandpiper at low tide, wading around sticking my head in the thick mud to find them. The best ones I pulled up include the following:
?A curveball—and here's where you'll learn all about Magnus force—thrown by a righthanded pitcher at 70 mph may rotate 17 times on its 60'6" journey. That's 1,800 rpm, or half the rate of a small synchronous electric motor.
?In 1921, Cool Papa Bell of the Negro leagues is said to have run the bases in less than 13 seconds—barely one second slower than Carl Lewis could theoretically run that 120-yard distance in a straight line.
?The collision of the bat, itself going 70 mph, and the ball, traveling at 90 mph, lasts only about [1/1000] of a second. It takes nearly 8,000 pounds of force to change the motion of the 5?-ounce ball from its speed of 90 mph toward the plate to a speed of 110 mph toward the centerfield bleachers. Swing [1/100] of a second late, and it's foul.
Other facts: In the 1961 All-Star Game in San Francisco, a balk was called on Stu Miller of the Giants when a gust of wind blew him off the mound. A ball batted with an initial velocity of 110 mph at an angle of 35 degrees from the horizontal would go about 750 feet in a vacuum; near sea level at Shea Stadium it would travel only about 400 feet; at Atlanta's 1,050-foot altitude it would go 408 feet; in Kansas City, 406 feet; in Chicago or Milwaukee, 405 feet. But if Denver is ever granted a franchise, the equivalent 400-foot drive by Darryl Strawberry in Shea would go an amazing 440 feet in a mile-high stadium. And a batted ball will travel 20 feet farther on a 95� day than on a 45� day.
But once past these nuggets, I found myself in mud as the syntax became virtually opaque. To understand the flight of a baseball, Adair tells us, we must know this:
"When an object (such as a baseball) passes through a fluid (such as air), the fluid affects the motion of the object as it flows about the object. Moreover, for all fluids and all objects, the character of the flow of the fluid is determined by the value of a (dimensionless) Reynolds number proportional to the density of the fluid, the fluid velocity, the size of the object, and inversely proportional to the viscosity of the fluid. For a given Reynolds number, the behavior of the gaseous fluid of stars—interacting with each other through gravity—that make up a galaxy 100,000 light-years across is described in very much the same way as the behavior of the molecules of air passing through an orifice one micron across, where a micron is about equal to the resolution of a high-power microscope."
source: http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/ma...MAG1137001/index.htm
April 09, 1990
Finding A New Angle On Baseball
Penny Ward Moser
Here's the perfect book to enlighten all your friends who think that Magnus force is a TV show currently in afternoon reruns: The Physics of Baseball (Harper & Row, $7.95), by Robert Kemp Adair, Sterling Professor of Physics at Yale.
In a delightful preface, we learn how the late Bart Giamatti, who had been president of Yale before becoming president of the National League and then commissioner of baseball, inspired the work by asking his former colleague to advise him on some of the more technical elements of baseball. In return, Giamatti appointed Adair "Physicist to the National League"—a job with no pay but with, Adair says, "a title that absolutely charmed the 10-year-old boy who I hope will always be a part of me."
The Physics of Baseball dazzles one with information and offers a tough, brain-stretching read. Adair says the book was "written for fun" and "is not meant as a scholarly compendium of research on baseball." Egad, if this is fun, I shudder to think of what he considers scholarly writing.
To be fair, there are some very fun facts, but I felt like a sandpiper at low tide, wading around sticking my head in the thick mud to find them. The best ones I pulled up include the following:
?A curveball—and here's where you'll learn all about Magnus force—thrown by a righthanded pitcher at 70 mph may rotate 17 times on its 60'6" journey. That's 1,800 rpm, or half the rate of a small synchronous electric motor.
?In 1921, Cool Papa Bell of the Negro leagues is said to have run the bases in less than 13 seconds—barely one second slower than Carl Lewis could theoretically run that 120-yard distance in a straight line.
?The collision of the bat, itself going 70 mph, and the ball, traveling at 90 mph, lasts only about [1/1000] of a second. It takes nearly 8,000 pounds of force to change the motion of the 5?-ounce ball from its speed of 90 mph toward the plate to a speed of 110 mph toward the centerfield bleachers. Swing [1/100] of a second late, and it's foul.
Other facts: In the 1961 All-Star Game in San Francisco, a balk was called on Stu Miller of the Giants when a gust of wind blew him off the mound. A ball batted with an initial velocity of 110 mph at an angle of 35 degrees from the horizontal would go about 750 feet in a vacuum; near sea level at Shea Stadium it would travel only about 400 feet; at Atlanta's 1,050-foot altitude it would go 408 feet; in Kansas City, 406 feet; in Chicago or Milwaukee, 405 feet. But if Denver is ever granted a franchise, the equivalent 400-foot drive by Darryl Strawberry in Shea would go an amazing 440 feet in a mile-high stadium. And a batted ball will travel 20 feet farther on a 95� day than on a 45� day.
But once past these nuggets, I found myself in mud as the syntax became virtually opaque. To understand the flight of a baseball, Adair tells us, we must know this:
"When an object (such as a baseball) passes through a fluid (such as air), the fluid affects the motion of the object as it flows about the object. Moreover, for all fluids and all objects, the character of the flow of the fluid is determined by the value of a (dimensionless) Reynolds number proportional to the density of the fluid, the fluid velocity, the size of the object, and inversely proportional to the viscosity of the fluid. For a given Reynolds number, the behavior of the gaseous fluid of stars—interacting with each other through gravity—that make up a galaxy 100,000 light-years across is described in very much the same way as the behavior of the molecules of air passing through an orifice one micron across, where a micron is about equal to the resolution of a high-power microscope."
source: http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/ma...MAG1137001/index.htm
I read that book several years ago. It was interesting. BB is about physics.
Micah Owings is from a high school here in our town and I use to love watching him play baseball. Wow! He was the epitome of a phenom back then. Then again, he was close to 20yrs old also as a high school Senior. 
He has a younger brother now playing in the Braves farm system. Jon Mark Owings. FYI
He has a younger brother now playing in the Braves farm system. Jon Mark Owings. FYI
As a good hitter about facing a pitcher throwing 76 to 82---they hate it--they want to see 90 MPH speed
How do I know? My son was a hitter--he cursed the junk ball pitchers
How do I know? My son was a hitter--he cursed the junk ball pitchers
Totally agree that a kid throwing low-mid-70s with good command of a 3-pitch repertoire can be a giant-killer.
The 62-63mph kid with one pitch and no movement? That's got to be exceedingly rare at the HS level.
Thank you all for your responses to this question.
The 62-63mph kid with one pitch and no movement? That's got to be exceedingly rare at the HS level.
Thank you all for your responses to this question.
quote:Originally posted by Krakatoa:
The 62-63mph kid with one pitch and no movement? That's got to be exceedingly rare at the HS level.
I've seen those kids succeed in games before, but never consistently from game to game. Sometimes hitters never figure out how to time a pitch that far UNDER hitting speed.
In summary, we've concluded that you, as the coach have to decide for yourself. :-)
In answer to Krakatoa's original question "At what LOWER velocity does pitch location not matter?" For 18U ball, I'd say anything from 95 up (and yes, there are a few 18s who do throw that hard). 
Even with low 90s velocity, if it is straight and poorly located, more than a few 17-18 year old hitters can barrel that kind of velocity up and hit it hard.
Even with low 90s velocity, if it is straight and poorly located, more than a few 17-18 year old hitters can barrel that kind of velocity up and hit it hard.
This thread had been a very interesting read...Danny B reminded me of when one of our travel teams only had 1 pitcher than threw in the 80s. So when we got deep in a tournament and needed some mid relief, we actually used a guy we called a fluffer...couldn't break a pane of glass. Watching the other team see the pitcher warm up in relief was one of the funniest things I had witnessed. It was amazing how the other team would not be patient. Our other pitcher, who was used mostly for mid-relief but for some closing could throw sliders and curve balls that would break off of the plate. This would typically get the same result.
That season we won more tournaments than I suspected by using this strategy.
That season we won more tournaments than I suspected by using this strategy.
Southpaw,
I used that example because I think my son was the "off timing" pitcher for many years. Through select, high school and now the collegiate level, he is probably looked at as the guy who can keep them at bay for a few innings until they can get their timing down. Lefty, low-mid 80's guy who usually throws before or after a little heat.
I guess it's got him this far, so there is a need for those types.
I will say though, a huge key and he does it well, he THROWS STRIKES!
I used that example because I think my son was the "off timing" pitcher for many years. Through select, high school and now the collegiate level, he is probably looked at as the guy who can keep them at bay for a few innings until they can get their timing down. Lefty, low-mid 80's guy who usually throws before or after a little heat.
I guess it's got him this far, so there is a need for those types.
I will say though, a huge key and he does it well, he THROWS STRIKES!
I remember a game we had a few years ago that exemplifies how a soft tosser and a hard tosser can both be effective.
We played a team who had a lefty throwing in low 90's (got drafted but not sure what has happened to him since) and our guy was throwing 80 at best. As some of you have stated when my guy was warming up. I'm sure everyone thought we were going to get killed but it ended up being a great game.
We got no hit and lost 5 - 0 in 9 innings and my guy gave up 6 hits through 8 innings. Although we got no hit I wasn't that upset overall because we put the ball in play quite a bit but they made the plays. My guy got a bunch of weak groundballs and IF popups.
Essentially both guys relied on their strengths. The other guy could just hump it up there and my guys did expand the zone more than normal. My guy kept the ball, mixed speeds, and changed locations.
It was a great game overall.
We played a team who had a lefty throwing in low 90's (got drafted but not sure what has happened to him since) and our guy was throwing 80 at best. As some of you have stated when my guy was warming up. I'm sure everyone thought we were going to get killed but it ended up being a great game.
We got no hit and lost 5 - 0 in 9 innings and my guy gave up 6 hits through 8 innings. Although we got no hit I wasn't that upset overall because we put the ball in play quite a bit but they made the plays. My guy got a bunch of weak groundballs and IF popups.
Essentially both guys relied on their strengths. The other guy could just hump it up there and my guys did expand the zone more than normal. My guy kept the ball, mixed speeds, and changed locations.
It was a great game overall.