Athletic Teams - are we being to tough on what is a TEAM?

I'm only throwing this out there, but the big deal might be which team you have a prior commitment to. It's just a guess though.

Good point Dtiger.

So there is never, ever a reason for missing a game? If you die, they drag your casket to the field?


What is the purpose(s) of a youth select baseball club?

Disclaimer: Texan son has played with more than one team at times (not the last couple of years, & probably not in the future). He has been invited to join other teams for major tournaments. But his primary team always took priority and he did not miss their games.

Additional disclaimer: He has not been invited to AFLAC. Maybe someday...

Final disclaimer: I am not related to PD, KD or KG. I do not take the train. That might have been me that went by you on I-20, but you'll have to have pictures to prove it.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

What is the purpose(s) of a youth select baseball club?

Great question.

But maybe we should start with this.....

What is the purpose in playing the game of baseball or any team sport?

Good question. But is baseball always a game? And what is a sport?

I don't think it's an answer that has one answer, it's unique to the individual. For me, the reason for me to play any sport is to test myself. The way I test myself, I must learn how to work with players, coaches, and parents. I must also learn time management (there is life outside sports). And finally, I want to learn something from the experience, whether it be physical, mental, or emotional.

The purpose of playing any team sport....well, first I think there has to be some interest in the sport. Why play if you don't enjoy it? Of course there are exceptions (if you are being paid millions of dollars).

BTW...is Cheerleading considered a sport?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Good question. But is baseball always a game? And what is a sport?

I guess I will start the answering.

In my opinion......

Baseball is a game. In the purist form, baseball is a game between two teams on any given day.

Baseball is something my dad signed me up for when I was 11 hoping for me to gain self confidence and to learn to interact with other kids my age. Learning to take instruction, learning to strive for success, learning to work towards a common goal with others.

Baseball is a game that I played in high school. That gave me a sense of belonging. Some sort of self idenity as most HS kids look for through various venues.

Baseball is a game I played in college. In which I learned to respect a man for what he taught me about life as well as what the game can offer in the team atmosphere. Baseball allowed for me a higher education but not without consequences and dedication.

Baseball is a game I played on the professional level. At the time, the day I was drafted was one of the most emotional days of my baseball career. A sense of accomplishment.......at last my dream was true. Baseball was a game that soon became a job.

Baseball was a game I got to experience at the Major League level. And yes, as a bullpen catcher. A game that was vastly different than expectation would allow. Different ideas, eye opening situations, a whole different avenue. Was it a game? I don't know.

Baseball is a game that I have coached in the past. A game in which has allowed me to come close to some and distant to others. A game in which I enjoy so much at times, and hate in others.

As I sat on the couch all summer only to watch the Regional tournament, I realized baseball is a game I love. Why? I don't know for sure. Maybe it for the memories of the distant places it took me. From the weed filled fields when I was 11 to experiencing Yankee Stadium with 60,000 people in the stands.

Or maybe it's for the people I have met along the way. As my college coach, I just talked to today, is still my greatest mentor. I cried the day I signed with the Brewers and he was there to experience it with me.

Or maybe it's for what it has to offer my son some day. As he sits here beside me in his little chair, I can't help but wonder if he will like baseball.

What will baseball be for him?..................

Hopefully what I wish it was for me at so many times...........

just a game.

SWAC,
Thanks for starting the topic.

Ken, I am not sure I can answer you question but I will try to offer at least a partial: Some of the purposes of playing baseball or any team sport IMO is to a) make friendships, b)have fun, c)learn how to support your teammates, and d) to enjoy THE GAME. I know that there are more obvious reasons but those are a few IMO.

I am interested in your opinion and others on these questions as they relate to TEAM.

1. Some could argue that summer select ball is nothing more than "all star" teams or "showcase" teams playing for the benefit of a select few individual players who are talented enough to play. If a high school team fields a summer team, shouldn't the player's first commitment be to that local high school team?

2. Should we do away with Olympic team sports since most generally take some time away from a players original team either thru trials, tryouts, games, etc. not counting the risk of injury while participating?

3. Should baseball players be allowed to play other sports in school if their seasons overlap
thus taking that player away from his baseball team at times.

I have some more questions to get to later but this gets me started.

One thing I want to say is please don't take any of these questions or any others asked, at least by me, as having a hidden agenda. I am truly interested in your answers and opinions, as well as those of others.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

What is the purpose(s) of a youth select baseball club?

Great question.

But maybe we should start with this.....

What is the purpose in playing the game of baseball or any team sport?

Ken, I think you've hit the nail on the head. As DTiger said: "it's unique to the individual" and that's the problem. A player (and his family) join a team for a variety of reasons; to play, to win, to be the best player or sometimes "just because". This becomes a problem when the coach/organization is not very explicit as to the goals and expectations of the season. The best I've heard it said, at least for my family, was that purpose of our team in the Summer was to achieve "team successes (read Farmington or McKinney)"; the Fall was for achieving individual goals. This meant that the only valid reasons to miss a game was a family, church or school (and school team) obligation and obviously illness. The key in our situation was that a "stud" player paid the price in the past and all in the room understood that a violation of this rule would result in release from the team, even if you were lefthanded, 6'5" and cruised at 95mph.

To specifically answer your question, the purpose of my boys (their perspective) playing baseball has been:

• - having fun
  
• - love of the game
  
• - setting goals and achieving them (sometimes)
  
• - meeting new people and building friendships

The purpose of my wife and I has been:

• - watching them have fun
  
• - watching and guiding them in dealing with both successes and failures on and off the field
  
• - teaching them life's lessons
  
• - teaching them to respect their teammates, coaches, opposing players and all who they meet for who they are
  
• - watching them develop leadership skills

All right....I'm off of my soapbox.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
SWAC,
Thanks for starting the topic.

Ken, I am not sure I can answer you question but I will try to offer at least a partial: Some of the purposes of playing baseball or any team sport IMO is to a) make friendships, b)have fun, c)learn how to support your teammates, and d) to enjoy THE GAME. I know that there are more obvious reasons but those are a few IMO.

I am interested in your opinion and others on these questions as they relate to TEAM.

1. Some could argue that summer select ball is nothing more than "all star" teams or "showcase" teams playing for the benefit of a select few individual players who are talented enough to play. If a high school team fields a summer team, shouldn't the player's first commitment be to that local high school team?

2. Should we do away with Olympic team sports since most generally take some time away from a players original team either thru trials, tryouts, games, etc. not counting the risk of injury while participating?

3. Should baseball players be allowed to play other sports in school if their seasons overlap
thus taking that player away from his baseball team at times.

I have some more questions to get to later but this gets me started.

One thing I want to say is please don't take any of these questions or any others asked, at least by me, as having a hidden agenda. I am truly interested in your answers and opinions, as well as those of others.

Ken, Tom brings out some interesting points. As a select coach we take exception to a high school saying to a player he has to play with his high school during the summer, I want to put Tom's comments back at you. Man I'm doing PD's job.

quote:

ken, Tom brings out some interesting points. As a select coach we take exception to a high school saying a player has to play with his high school during the summer, I want to put Tom's comments back at you. man i sound like PD.

I am all for taking it back to the days of youth baseball players playing for a team within their communtiy. I think it would bring back the true intent of amatuer baseball.

I personally can't remember ever taking exeception to an instance like this.

I am going to get to Tom's questions. I need to think about them before I post.

So the true intent of amateur baseball is to play within the community only?

I never knew that.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:

I am interested in your opinion and others on these questions as they relate to TEAM.

1. Some could argue that summer select ball is nothing more than "all star" teams or "showcase" teams playing for the benefit of a select few individual players who are talented enough to play. If a high school team fields a summer team, shouldn't the player's first commitment be to that local high school team?

I think the game would have a better intent if it were entirely community based, example as in HS summer programs. Would the level be as high. Of coarse not. But how many kids actually making a true living from playing the game of baseball? Numbers are unbelievably low. Even in the case of the select level.

quote:

2. Should we do away with Olympic team sports since most generally take some time away from a players original team either thru trials, tryouts, games, etc. not counting the risk of injury while participating?

Players at the Olympic level are playing the game of baseball to represent their country through athletics. For the sense of pride through a team event. Do they select MVP's at an Olympic event? I hope not.

quote:

3. Should baseball players be allowed to play other sports in school if their seasons overlap
thus taking that player away from his baseball team at times.

I believe so. As only if the said player completes the later part of the season with the sport they participate with at that time. Example. Play baseball when basketball season ends. Play basketball when football season ends.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
So the true intent of amateur baseball is to play within the community only?

I never knew that.

The true intent of amatuer baseball is to play under the "team" environment. I believe this may be better achieved with a community based team.

quote:

Or maybe it's for the people I have met along the way............

Ken,
Concerning your comments about the Olympics. Do you feel the same applies to the Youth Team, Junior Team, and National Team? Is it OK to leave your summer team trying to get to AABC to go to tryouts or participate in these games? Do you really think that players asked to tryout or attend do so for the sole reason of representing their country, or do they do it for exposure.

Your comments concernig MVP's raises another question for me. Should MVP's or all tournament teams be recognized in amatuer sports? In addition should amatuer teams or schools retire numbers of players because of what they accomplished individually or for only what they gave to the team or back to the game?

Concerning your comments about playing other sports in high school; if the high school coach believes that a "Team" is there from start to beginning, including off season, as all team members are to be treated equally, is he wrong to insist that a player chooses which "team" or sport which to participate.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
Ken,
Concerning your comments about the Olympics. Do you feel the same applies to the Youth Team, Junior Team, and National Team? Is it OK to leave your summer team trying to get to AABC to go to tryouts or participate in these games? Do you really think that players asked to tryout or attend do so for the sole reason of representing their country, or do they do it for exposure.

Your comments concernig MVP's raises another question for me. Should MVP's or all tournament teams be recognized in amatuer sports? In addition should amatuer teams or schools retire numbers of players because of what they accomplished individually or for only what they gave to the team or back to the game?

Concerning your comments about playing other sports in high school; if the high school coach believes that a "Team" is there from start to beginning, including off season, as all team members are to be treated equally, is he wrong to insist that a player chooses which "team" or sport which to participate.

Question for you HU.....

Is there anyway you could put any future questions in simpler reply format? Cut and pasting this stuff is tough.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
Ken,
Concerning your comments about the Olympics. Do you feel the same applies to the Youth Team, Junior Team, and National Team?

I guess the real answer would be with the individual player involved. But my experience was for the "assumed" exposure.

quote:

Is it OK to leave your summer team trying to get to AABC to go to tryouts or participate in these games?

I don't know if I exactly understand your question, but I would say this...........

Once you start with a team, you should finish with that team. Unless a set of circumstances has been discussed prior to that particular teams schedule. A players responsibility is to the team he has a commitment to.

quote:

Do you really think that players asked to tryout or attend do so for the sole reason of representing their country, or do they do it for exposure.

At the Olympic level......for their country for sure.

Refer to above for the Junior and other "Olympic" levels.

quote:

Your comments concernig MVP's raises another question for me. Should MVP's or all tournament teams be recognized in amatuer sports?

I think it would be a better situation if all awards were voted on the players involved.

quote:

In addition should amatuer teams or schools retire numbers of players because of what they accomplished individually or for only what they gave to the team or back to the game?

Although humbled, the college I attended retired my number. Did I deserve it? Only my coaches and teamates could answer that. Could I have done without it...yes. Is it an honor? Yes. Would I trade it for the moments I spent with my college teamates? No.

quote:

Concerning your comments about playing other sports in high school; if the high school coach believes that a "Team" is there from start to beginning, including off season, as all team members are to be treated equally, is he wrong to insist that a player chooses which "team" or sport which to participate.

This is a touchy subject at the high school level. But like I addressed before, once a player joins a team, it is that players obligation to finish the season with that team. Even if it interfers with his/her primary sport. If a coach only allows kids to play from start to finish, I guess a decision has to be made. But I would hate to think that is reality at the HS level although I know the pressures are there.

Ken,
I'll try, but I am an older guy who is not as computer literate as some of you younger guys. I don't even know how to cut and paste. Also don't feel a rush to answer everything in a hurry.

I am interested in your thoughts on many areas of where it is OK, if at all, to separate team for individual or other teams benefits. I eventually would like to discuss specific things such as off season work, lessons, etc. and get your opinions as to how they should relate to "Teams".

Ken,

On the subject on a team, what are your thoughts regarding HS transfers. Do you support a player who transfers just to be on a "better" team / opportunity? Or do you think the player should stay committed to his original HS team? I understand this is a little different than select ball, but where do you draw the line.

Ken,
I appreciate your replies. I don't want to wear you out all in one night, so I'll get back to you with some more thoughts later. I'll do my best to improve on the format.

H&U -- a question for you....(I'm taking careful notes)....

What would you say was the most important "exposure" opportunity for Tant -- i.e., what influenced UT the most?

quote:

Originally posted by Longtoss:
Ken,

On the subject on a team, what are your thoughts regarding HS transfers. Do you support a player who transfers just to be on a "better" team / opportunity? Or do you think the player should stay committed to his original HS team? I understand this is a little different than select ball, but where do you draw the line.

If the reason for transfer is indeed due to family circumstances, i.e. parent job change, family adjustments, ect. I have to think it's justified.

But to transfer for the opportunity for better athletics at the HS level I believe is wrong.

In anything of life, you only get what you put into it. If you want a good education, you can get it at any institution if you really want it. The resources are there.

If you want a better athletic career, you can get it if you want it at any level anywhere.

Example- Matt Sulentic @ DISD school. Hillcrest is definately not known for their top level baseball program (no disrespect intended). Although, players can achieve personal goals while attaining them in a team atmosphere no matter what the quality of team performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
The true intent of amatuer baseball is to play under the "team" environment. I believe this may be better achieved with a community based team.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion and I'm sure you have a basis for it in which you are very comfortable. I am not certain that I agree that it is always best, however.

Some players want to play at the highest level of the game possible. That is their joy in the game. This does not mean they are not a team player at all. But it does mean that the desire that burns in them, the competitive fires, may lead them out of the LL Inc. league in their town.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
If you want a good education, you can get it at any institution if you really want it. The resources are there.

Pardon me for being blunt. That simply is not true.

If one wants a "better" athletic career, yes one can work on it alone without outside resources. If one wants the "best" athletic career, again I must disagree.

That stated, for other reasons I do not agree with switching schools merely for athletics. Other venues are readily available that better meet that need (e.g., select).

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
The true intent of amatuer baseball is to play under the "team" environment. I believe this may be better achieved with a community based team.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion and I'm sure you have a basis for it in which you are very comfortable. I am not certain that I agree that it is always best, however.

Some players want to play at the highest level of the game possible. That is their joy in the game. This does not mean they are not a team player at all. But it does mean that the desire that burns in them, the competitive fires, may lead them out of the LL Inc. league in their town.

I agree with you that some players want more, and maybe that is competition. That is a good thing.

But what I am referring to is in the sense of genuine, grass roots, team atmospheres.

I have witnessed a better sense of passion during HS games than in "championship" summer games. Why? I believe there is a sense of pride involved.

Why is that lost during the summer? I believe it's due to the things I have been talking about on here for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
If you want a good education, you can get it at any institution if you really want it. The resources are there.

Pardon me for being blunt. That simply is not true.

It is true. It just depends how you define a "good, best, better" athletic career.

I believe thats where my opinions differ so much than others at times.

Ken, I'm going to jump on the other side for a moment. If the concept of team is so important then why does an All Star team show up in Williamsport each August? Why not the teams that win the League Tournament? Is it because they want competitive baseball?

Longtoss -- A parent usually has to be involved to transfer a player to the "bigger, better, best, grass is greener on their field" baseball school. And, there lies the problem! Parents who move the player for athletic reasons may need to look at THEIR motives -- not the player! I know first hand of a player that was moved 3 times during his 4 years of High School .....I would NEVER, EVER advise it. Sometimes the "move" works against a player!!

quote:

Originally posted by SWAC:
Ken, I'm going to jump on the other side for a moment. If the concept of team is so important then why does an All Star team show up in Williamsport each August? Why not the teams that win the League Tournament? Is it because they want competitive baseball?

That is a great example. But I think you know exactly the on lines I'm talking about.

I'll jump in this mess....

Usually the parents who advocate it being alright to miss games / tournaments of their kid's select teams are the parents whose kids get invited to Area Code, PG Nationals, AFLAC, etc.

Conversely the parents who think that a player should always put his team first are parents of those players who do not get invited to the above events.

As far as the Olympics, professional leagues provide a "break" in their season to accomodate the Olympics (NHL) or the Olympics is not during the regular season (NBA). Even the World Baseball event was held prior to the beginning of the MLB season.

PG, AFLAC, Area Code, etc know better than to mess with High School seasons. I have never heard of a kid asking his HS coach to miss a district game to go try out at a showcase. The showcases know that that would not be acceptable but for some reason summer "World Series" tournaments and other big team events are not even considered when scheduling events.

This is an ego thing to be sure. Baseball is the only sport that can get kids to sign their college career away for a 20% scholarship. I wish Brian was 6'7" 265 lbs like his brother then we could be deciding between guaranteed 4 year full ride football scholarships with no need to paricipate in the summer madness that is summer baseball. After having a son go through football recruiting and now baseball recruiting I'll take football recruiting any day. It's a heck of a lot better deal and a lot less stressful!

Cradad,

As I know it, Perfect Game is AFLAC related, in which both do not promote missing team events to attend their events.

quote:

Originally posted by SWAC:
Ken, I'm going to jump on the other side for a moment. If the concept of team is so important then why does an All Star team show up in Williamsport each August? Why not the teams that win the League Tournament? Is it because they want competitive baseball?

Oh, and by the way. The LLWS takes place AFTER the individual teams seasons are complete.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Why is that lost during the summer? I believe it's due to the things I have been talking about on here for a long time.

Perhaps it was lost on the teams you coached, leading you to this conclusion. {Not saying it was your fault, so please take no offense as none is intended.} But it is not lost with all teams. I can state that from first hand observation.

And this is part of what is at the root of the disagreement. {Which gratefully has been extremely civil.}

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
If you want a good education, you can get it at any institution if you really want it. The resources are there.

Pardon me for being blunt. That simply is not true.

It is true. It just depends how you define a "good, best, better" athletic career.

I believe thats where my opinions differ so much than others at times.

Using your example of an education, it is not true unless one chooses an uncustomary definition of good. Some schools simply do not have the quality of teachers to provide a good education. Some schools lack the parental support necessary to provide a school that can give a good education. And to say that a student can entirely overcome this is just not true.

We're gonna seriously disagree on this point. But that is okay.

PD,
Concerning Tant and UT, I didn't ask them that question while we were there but he had a number of exposure opportunities team related and individual related. There were several times where I know UT saw him play. He also had some recommendations from people whos opinions count when it comes to college recruiting.

I think all contributed somewhat.

Without me getting longwinded and off topic, if you want to discuss further send me a PM or give me a call and we can discuss further.

The fact that Tant is a stud doesn't hurt. H&U, maybe I'll get to see you guys next year in that opening HS tournament. Maybe ya'll wont kick our butts.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

Using your example of an education, it is not true unless one chooses an uncustomary definition of good. Some schools simply do not have the quality of teachers to provide a good education. Some schools lack the parental support necessary to provide a school that can give a good education. And to say that a student can entirely overcome this is just not true.

We're gonna seriously disagree on this point. But that is okay.

Ok, how bout this example.

Let's say Johnny attends Texas University and applies himself as much as Steve who attends Brookhaven CC.

Can both Steve and Johnny get a good education? Can Steve actually gain more?

I think so. It's all how one applies themself.