Athletic Teams - are we being to tough on what is a TEAM?

DTiger,
Please stop with the behind the scenes promoting of a fellow player and friend. There is no place for it on this board.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Why is that lost during the summer? I believe it's due to the things I have been talking about on here for a long time.

Perhaps it was lost on the teams you coached, leading you to this conclusion. {Not saying it was your fault, so please take no offense as none is intended.} But it is not lost with all teams. I can state that from first hand observation.

And this is part of what is at the root of the disagreement. {Which gratefully has been extremely civil.}

Example......this week at the CM Regional Tournament.

I personally didn't see an extreme amount of excitement out of the players knowing what was at stake. I believe teams involved would be considered top level teams.

Maybe it was subdued because of weather conditions.

Now go to a HS game where top HS programs are involved. To me, I have witnessed mush more enthusiasm between teams.

Just my observation I guess.

KG- With regards to HS ball, do you think the fans help with the game intensity? I feel that my HS games are never as intense as summer ball because we simply don't have the fan support. Summer ball is more competitive, so to me the games mean more even when the crazy students aren't there. This is MY experience, and I'm suggesting that for other kids, it's the other way around. I think the yelling bleachers and school rivalries add to what is at stake.

H&U-You have a PM

I have to agree with Ken on the High School excitement vs the summer team excitement thing.

I think there are a number of contributing factors but it's no contest IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
KG- With regards to HS ball, do you think the fans help with the game intensity? I feel that my HS games are never as intense as summer ball because we simply don't have the fan support. Summer ball is more competitive, so to me the games mean more even when the crazy students aren't there. This is MY experience, and I'm suggesting that for other kids, it's the other way around. I think the yelling bleachers and school rivalries add to what is at stake.

H&U-You have a PM

You have a point there. Obviously players can gain from the atmosphere in place.

But here is what I may add.

In HS, we all know what's at stake. You make the playoffs through district. Then, through a playoff format, the intensity increases with each week getting closer and closer to the ultimate goal. As in the State Tournament.

Now in summer ball, you would think the same thing would hold true. I'm not so sure that it does. Maybe one reason would be that 10 years ago there were much less "WS" events in place. Today's class of players have attended "WS" events each summer. So by the time they are 18, getting to a WS may not have the meaning that it used to.

Maybe that's the problem. It's hard for players today to understand the difference between one WS event from another. Making getting to one much less meaningful in a summer venue.

DTiger,
Back at you.

Just wondering who read that article last summer about summer baseball? That would be PERFECT for this discussion. It discussed growing popularity and a growing "need" to attend a WS.

H&U- Back at ya

Concerning Teams and exposure; is what "Team" a player chooses to play with that important to his "exposure" assuming all teams play at the same events?

Well, I know one player who's team LOST in their attempt to go to the TEAM TOURNAMENT and he begged to get on the INDIVIDUAL TEAM so he could showcase his INDIVIDUAL TALENTS!

Point is that one isn't competing against the other. They are BOTH THERE for the individual experience within a group/ team and the individual performance will lead to that experience being rewarding to some no mater the TEAM OUT COME because the INDIVIDUAL had a GOOD PERFORMANCE with in that Group/ team situation.

Don't always count on the TEAM tournament until you play the GAME, and WIN!

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

Using your example of an education, it is not true unless one chooses an uncustomary definition of good. Some schools simply do not have the quality of teachers to provide a good education. Some schools lack the parental support necessary to provide a school that can give a good education. And to say that a student can entirely overcome this is just not true.

We're gonna seriously disagree on this point. But that is okay.

Ok, how bout this example.

Let's say Johnny attends Texas University and applies himself as much as Steve who attends Brookhaven CC.

Can both Steve and Johnny get a good education? Can Steve actually gain more?

I think so. It's all how one applies themself.

Let's say Johnny attends a HS in the middle of the worst part of NYC. Johnny attends a HS in the richest part of DFW. It may not be possible for Johnny to get a good education. Regardless of how he applies himself.

If Johnny is interviewing for a fortune 500 company, he is a heck of a lot more likely to get the job than Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
If Johnny is interviewing for a fortune 500 company, he is a heck of a lot more likely to get the job than Steve.

I can agree to a certain extent.

But the question lies, should this be the case? Short Answer- it doesn't matter, that's the real world we live in.

My answer- As adults (coaches, parents, managers, ect) in our communities, we should strive for what is right by intent. Why does it matter where a kid comes from? Why does it matter that the logo at the top of the paper reads different on his/her diploma? Is the person applicable? Period.

And that's what I getting at here. So many things are put in a tangible sense. From sports to scholastic arenas. The preception overshadows reality in so many cases.

So what should we fall back on? I believe what is morally right. Teaching and learning character issues.

Is that possible? Probably not in the real world. Why? The same reason you must sensor TV today as a parent. Values have changed drastically today. What was once disgraced now is easily accepted. Why? For the slight possibility to better ones individual situation.

We as parents, coaches, ect. allow values and morals to go by the way side at times due to the possibility to increase an individuals opportunities to better ones self.

In my opinion, that in a nutshell is the problem. Not only with baseball but in so many situations.

Just turn on the news this morning.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
We as parents, coaches, ect. allow values and morals to go by the way side at times due to the possibility to increase an individuals opportunities to better ones self.

And therein lies the disagreement. Many select teams have several objectives. One of these objectives is to help the individual players reach their full potential. To help them make the next level. And those teams do not have a problem with a player attending AFLAC, etc. In fact, they are proud of their player's accomplishments. Morals and values are not going by the way side.

When one team member is out, for whatever reason, another team member steps up. That is part of being a team. Teams are made up of individuals. When one individual on a team receives recognition, the other individuals applaud their teammate. That is also part of being a team.

Wow, interesting discussion that took off.

"What is a TEAM?" "What is the purpose in playing the game of baseball or any team sport?"

The above questions quickly turned from TEAM discussions to the desires of the INDIVIDUAL or PARENTS desires. Interesting but not surprising as the numerious options that are available now to better one self, it is appropriate to evaluate all options. Perhaps when we refer to a TEAM we should put a timeline on it. School TEAM, summer TEAM, fall TEAM. Should TEAM be a permanent time? I think not but it should be a total commitment for achieving the common goal of which the TEAM was formed.

If any of you have read the book by Karlene Sugarman "WINNINNG THE MENTAL WAY" you might find the chapter on GETTING IT TOGETHER very interesting. It discusses, what a TEAM is, formation, image, harmony, the player, individual contributions, the nonstarters, team interaction as well as the size of the group. Bottom line there is a lot that makes up a TEAM and it doesn't stop with defining and forming the TEAM but understanding possibly the most important part of having a successful TEAM is the TEAM COHESION.

I would highly recommend the book for it's content.....and it's only $15 bucks.

The last 2 posts bring up an interesting question. How many or what percentage of kids would you guys say get noticed by a scout, or get seen, and have a chance to play even small college ball because they were noticed while the respective scouts were there to watch an AFLAC All American or a kid that had chosen the individual showcase route at times and had received more exposure?

Would like to go on record saying I respect the views of all who have posted here, even though I may or may not agree with those views.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Would like to go on record saying I respect the views of all who have posted here, even though I may or may not agree with those views.

I'm with you on that one Texan. Respect of other opinions is admirable.

Different views are the reasons for different political parties, religions,.........and yes even TEAMS!

There is no "I" in TEAM, however there is an "I" in WIN. With this in mind it appears to me with the pick up of individuals from other teams we bring the "I" factor into the world of team play, because isn't the bottom line when at a World Series Event to win?

On the other hand how important is it to win a team game during a showcase event? With that in mind the "I" factor in WIN is not as apparent as the "I" factor in TEAM, when it comes to purely getting exposure at a showcase event. Winning is not the focus at showcases, but is the only thing in the team or World Series Event.

My perspective, as warped as it may seem!

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
The last 2 posts bring up an interesting question. How many or what percentage of kids would you guys say get noticed by a scout, or get seen, and have a chance to play even small college ball because they were noticed while the respective scouts were there to watch an AFLAC All American or a kid that had chosen the individual showcase route at times and had received more exposure?

Tom, I would say that each time the Tigers, DBAT, Mustangs, Marshalls, etc. played each other there were at least every representative of the SEC, Big 12 and other schools at the game; I mean some head coaches. Even a number of major League Scouts. So I believe players can be seen without going to AFLAC, etc. However, I believe scouts like them there because they can see more players in one location and cut down on expenses. A scout will come to a Tiger game to see a pitcher and all of a sudden say an unknown player hits a bomb. That one moment will get them noticed and not at a show case. Same at a showcase or AFLAC. They come to see certain players and the skill levels are different at those events. However, a less known player will get noticed.

SWAC,
I agree with you. That being the case isn't it a benefit to the " Summer Team" to have a team member, pitcher or otherwise, or 2 that draws the scouts to watch their game in the first place?

Assuming these one or 2 players leave the team at times to attend a showcase, Youth Team Trials, Junior Team Trials, etc. doesn't the benefit of having them on the Summer Team the majority of the time outweigh the cost of them missing a few "Summer Team" games.

H&U you bring up an excellent point. I agree the benefit the additional team members may experience is worth them missing a few games if that will bring in more scouts to individual team games. To me and it will never happe, why can't the different groups work together and schedule the events that will benefit the selects team as well as the different scout organizations.

Bunny Trail, very sorry:
Have parents taken the "fun" out of the game and made it a job for these players? How many of these kids will look back as adults and say I never took a family vacation to somewhere that did not have a baseball diamond (or insert any other field)? I recently told my mother how much I regretted the fact that when I was in H.S. (70's) we never took a fall or spring vacation due to sports.

Has anyone ever asked their son, is playing 60 games in 60 days something you really want to do...Or has the discussion been something like, if you want to keep up with Johnny you better play on this team so that you don't fall behind. Or you're not going to get "seen" unless you do this tournament.

T-Ball: When the summer starts I think every young ambitious player wants to play as many games as possible. As the year goes along, waking up for those 8AM games or staying out late at those 8PM games makes it a little more difficult. I often question if I truly enjoy it. To answer that question I ask myself another question: what would I rather be doing? The answer is nothing. Nothing takes the place of the thrill of a simple ground ball, the strategy behind every pitch, a play at the plate. For me baseball holds up everything that still has a chance for purity (which is why it ticks me off to hear about performance enhancers, but that's another thread). I could have more friends if it weren't for baseball, I could make better grades, I could suffer less injuries, but I wouldn't experience laying myself on the line for my teammates. Every at bat I feel more pressure to get a hit so I don't let them down than if it was bottom of the 7th, bases loaded, 2 out, and the tieing run on third. It isn't about winning as much as holding my end of the deal. Obviously, if I hold my end, then we'll win. My parents have never forced baseball on me, and I think it's one of the reasons I love the game. To me, every baseball game is a vacation; a vacation away from stress, drama, and parents .

Dave -- 60 games in 60 days! Awesome!

Can I adopt you Dtiger? What a great attitude, not saying other answers would have been wrong... I'll admit to being one of the dads that did it the wrong way. Kind of like a converted smoker, I see my "old-self" in so many parents today though. Trying to make a Dtiger kid out of a kid who really does not have that "drive".

T-Ball,
If teams do it right and if parents can swallow their egos about playing time etc. that is a good reason to carry a few extra players on a summer team.

A team with say 15 players can afford time for players to take time with their families for a vacation or other things.

Planning these times with the respective coach and communicating them as much in advance as possible is very important IMO.

Just a... weird side note. The word adult, when broken down(a/dult), means without/joy. The prefix "a" means without and "dult" means joy. It was thought someone became an adult, when they lost the fun in their life. I know this is stupid, but it's ironic when you hear about parents forcing things on their kids. Maybe it's a reminder that you should never lose what you love.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
Just a... weird side note. The word adult, when broken down(a/dult), means without/joy. The prefix "a" means without and "dult" means joy. It was thought someone became an adult, when they lost the fun in their life. I know this is stupid, but it's ironic when you hear about parents forcing things on their kids. Maybe it's a reminder that you should never lose what you love.

WOW!!
Preach on, brother, preach on!!

Baseball provides our family with occasional dult. Hmmm.

Like PD, baseball provides our family alot of joy. My son is like dtiger, he would rather do nothing else than play baseball....We have to plan vacations for the family at times that are the least obtrusive for baseball and then force him to go with us. He would much rather be playing baseball anyday than being on a fun family vacation.

I just wish he had that same passion for his schoolwork.

T-Ball -- kudos to you for admitting you made some errors.... maybe someday a grandson can benefit

Jim W. -- a woman wrote a book on TEAMWORK and MENTAL WINNING? imagine that!

Most of these "adults" have one thing in mind for their kids - Major League Baseball.

Never mind the fact that what was always a long shot at best is becoming even more of a long shot for American born players. In case anyone has not noticed MLB rosters are now for the first time 50+% stocked with foreign born players (mostly latin). I read in the newspaper the other day where the International draft is quickly moving up in importance relative to the US amateur draft.

The problem is this - the best young athletes in the US no longer play baseball. We have lost them to football and basketball. Look at the rosters of high school and college teams. They don't exactly "look" like the rosters in professional baseball - especially the Major Leagues.

My point is this - is the select team structure really developing players and sending them to the highest level of baseball that we all assume it is? Or has select baseball become nothing more than sub 6' 160 lb HS kids that are too small to play football (and can't take a hit) and too short and slow to play baseketball?

In one respect HS baseball has improved since I was in high school playing - pitching. I went through HS and never faced a 90+ mph HS pitcher and now every team has two.

But I look around at the athletes and I am not impressed by what is on the field. Small, slow, and not very quick. I think that is why the latinos are taking over "our" game.

Crawdad,

I think you made some good points, but I have to disagree on a few.

1. The best athletes in the world are in jail, dropouts, or on a street corner somewhere.

2. As for too small to play football and take a hit. Well, it's unfortunate but most large HS force athletes to make decisions on what sport to commit to. Most baseball players still like football, however football takes priority and players have to work it in when they can. If HS would work with multi-player athletes, then you might see more in both.

3. I don't agree with the small, slow, and not very quick part either. Maybe I've been watching a different league.

Ditto, LT.

Is it the Latin players who realize baseball may be their only ticket off the island, thus have a stronger work ethic? Or more to work for? Whereas a kid in the states may believe, he can still make a good living doing something else?

T-ball I think that is part of it but the main problem is that the best AMERICAN athletes are NOT playing baseball.

Even MLB recognizes this and is trying to attract more inner-city and minority youngsters to the sport. These kids have almost completely written off baseball in favor of football and basketball.

MLB recognizes this huge problem and has a program in place to do something about it

Reviving Baseball in Inner Cities

To say that the best athletes in the country are playing baseball is ignoring the obvious.

T-Ball your onto something, but I'd like to add a variation. You asked if you ever asked your kid if he really wanted to play 60 games in 60 days? Well imagine playing a bunch of games every day, every day possible. Not only is it a "ticket," but it's the passion of the country. Everyone does it all the time (from what I've heard), and they do it without hitting instructors, pitching coaches. I'm not saying that these people that we as USA kids can take advantage of aren't helpful, but look at Vlad Guerrero. His swing isn't necessarily the prettiest, he doesn't swing at the best pitches, but he still hits them out of the park. If every kid played baseball 365 days of the year (without overuse of the arm), I think we could have better baseball. I think that's why in general, baseball is better where climates are more predictable and less on the extremes of winter. Also in Latin America, emphasis is not always put on winning; rather it's put on having fun and enjoying the game. These are my opinions made by what I've seen and heard.

This has been a very interesting thread going many different directions.

What would be more interesting is to know the "baseball" backgrounds of the individuals who post their opinions.

Please, I know, your thinking here we go again. I am not. But like anything else, to develop an opinion about something one has to have experience in that general arena.

Do you agree?

For example.......

If an opinion was made on Major League players and their expectations for salaries, would they be different if heard from..........

1. A player himself
2. A fan
3. A manager
4. An owner

Of those 4, what opinion would be most valid?

Personally, I would take it from the horses mouth. Especially if the player was completely honest. Of coarse, again, that is my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
Concerning Teams and exposure; is what "Team" a player chooses to play with that important to his "exposure" assuming all teams play at the same events?

I don't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
This has been a very interesting thread going many different directions.

What would be more interesting is to know the "baseball" backgrounds of the individuals who post their opinions.

Please, I know, your thinking here we go again. I am not. But like anything else, to develop an opinion about something one has to have experience in that general arena.

Do you agree?

For example.......

If an opinion was made on Major League players and their expectations for salaries, would they be different if heard from..........

1. A player himself
2. A fan
3. A manager
4. An owner

Of those 4, what opinion would be most valid?

Personally, I would take it from the horses mouth. Especially if the player was completely honest. Of coarse, again, that is my opinion.

I don't like the framework of the question; "the most valid opinion", but just like in the real world, the owner's is the most valid and the only one that counts......he writes the check!