Athletic Teams - are we being to tough on what is a TEAM?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
We as parents, coaches, ect. allow values and morals to go by the way side at times due to the possibility to increase an individuals opportunities to better ones self.

And therein lies the disagreement. Many select teams have several objectives. One of these objectives is to help the individual players reach their full potential. To help them make the next level. And those teams do not have a problem with a player attending AFLAC, etc. In fact, they are proud of their player's accomplishments. Morals and values are not going by the way side.

Agreed that some share those views.

My question is this. At what point is building a foundation important so that when a player achieves "the next level" he will succeed?

If for some organizations and venues, the concern is to just get to the next level, is there ever responsibility involved for the success at the next level?

I train retrievers as a hobby and for a little pocket change. I have dealt with some seriously talented retrievers. Some can retrieve before they learn how to sit.

But if I am trying to create a successful retriever, wouldn't it be important to make sure a dog could sit before I send it off to retrieve? Ultimately I am looking for a great retriever, but there are so many things that go into that.

Same is true for a baseball player in my opinion. There are many players that have the skills to compete at the next level. But will they? I believe with a proper foundation, the skills will be allowed to come through on a reliable basis.

This is where the "team" concept comes in. We all want our kids to get "to the next level". Many of them have the skills. But what goes on at the next level? Does the next level try to win games as a team? I hope so. Can a player with skills with no team foundation succeed when it gets to that "next level"? My experience, No.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad0406:

I don't like the framework of the question; "the most valid opinion", but just like in the real world, the owner's is the most valid and the only one that counts......he writes the check!

Ok, I can certainly see that.

Let's change it to simply facts.

What are the facts when it comes to a ML players salary expectations.

Does it change from the list of 4? Certainly, if honest, the player would be able to tell you the facts on his expectations. A coach, fan, or owner could only go on speculation.

My point is this.......In order to have an opinion on something, experience is what forms such. This is where I think it is important to legitimize what experience is necessary in order to form a valid opinion.

Dtiger
Great point. PASSION I have to believe the one common denominator that crosses ethnic, cultural, (all boundries). The great players all have/had a passion for the sport. The one thing you can't coach, or will for your child is passion. You still have to have a skill set, but you have to have the passion to put the skills to use to be your best.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
We as parents, coaches, ect. allow values and morals to go by the way side at times due to the possibility to increase an individuals opportunities to better ones self.

And therein lies the disagreement. Many select teams have several objectives. One of these objectives is to help the individual players reach their full potential. To help them make the next level. And those teams do not have a problem with a player attending AFLAC, etc. In fact, they are proud of their player's accomplishments. Morals and values are not going by the way side.

Agreed that some share those views.

My question is this. At what point is building a foundation important so that when a player achieves "the next level" he will succeed?

If for some organizations and venues, the concern is to just get to the next level, is there ever responsibility involved for the success at the next level?

I train retrievers as a hobby and for a little pocket change. I have dealt with some seriously talented retrievers. Some can retrieve before they learn how to sit.

But if I am trying to create a successful retriever, wouldn't it be important to make sure a dog could sit before I send it off to retrieve? Ultimately I am looking for a great retriever, but there are so many things that go into that.

Same is true for a baseball player in my opinion. There are many players that have the skills to compete at the next level. But will they? I believe with a proper foundation, the skills will be allowed to come through on a reliable basis.

This is where the "team" concept comes in. We all want our kids to get "to the next level". Many of them have the skills. But what goes on at the next level? Does the next level try to win games as a team? I hope so. Can a player with skills with no team foundation succeed when it gets to that "next level"? My experience, No.

Your assertion is that what I described and "team" are mutually exclusive. I disagree with that assertion as strongly as you believe in it. But that's okay...

I'm about to get dizzy from going in these circles.

quote:

Your assertion is that what I described and "team" are mutually exclusive. I disagree with that assertion as strongly as you believe in it. But that's okay...

I'm about to get dizzy from going in these circles.

As I have understood that for quite some time. And I agree, it's ok.

My question is... what is the experience, within the game of baseball, that you form your assertions?

I'll start.
In 1968 I played 10 or 12 games as a 10-year-old in a rec league. That is the sum total of my "playing experience".

Played the game. Coached the game (including select). Have a son playing the game. Observed the game. Have followed, encouraged, advised (personal basis, not "agent/adviser") players playing in college (some for major programs). Visited with bird dog scouts, cross checkers, retired paid scouts. Stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and have been seen with a briefcase more than fifty miles from home.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Played the game. Coached the game (including select). Have a son playing the game. Observed the game. Have followed, encouraged, advised (personal basis, not "agent/adviser") players playing in college (some for major programs). Visited with bird dog scouts, cross checkers, retired paid scouts. Stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and have been seen with a briefcase more than fifty miles from home.

I see. So your opinions about players getting to the "next level" and how they get there are based on the experience above.

Without confrontation, do you have any experience with "the next level" other than coversations with the people listed above.

This will help me, I'm trying real hard here. Please don't take this out of context.

Ken,
From your experience is there really a team concept at the next level? Seems to me at the college level with many kids transfering, colleges not honoring scholarships, releasing players, etc. that the higher you go the less of a "team concept" exists. It appears to get worse in professional ball.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
Ken,
From your experience is there really a team concept at the next level? Seems to me at the college level with many kids transfering, colleges not honoring scholarships, releasing players, etc. that the higher you go the less of a "team concept" exists. It appears to get worse in professional ball.

Regarding the "next level"...

At the college level, I experienced an extreme team concept. No one man was more important that another. And that is the honest truth. Although my number is on that wall, Coach Malcheski could tell you the number of times he had to put my butt on the bench to prove a point. We were a unit. Working together on every aspect of the college experience. From field maintenance, to studies, to baseball.....it was a family. Every day, all year long.

Pro level (minor leagues)- For the most part, the team concept was not real vivid to me. At times there were glimps', but each prospect trying to move up the ladder didn't create an arena for extreme team concepts.

Pro level (major leagues) [Note- I did not experience this level as a player but as a bullpen catcher. Did take part each day, behind the scenes, from pitchers and catchers spring training, to every game of each season]

In 99', there was definately a team concept. I believe mainly due to the vetrans on the club. Guys like Burkett, Morgan, Sele, Helling, Wettland, McLemore, Clayton, Zeile, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, P. Rodriguez. These guys had been in the league long enough to be established finacially in order to realize why they continued to play the game. To win as a team. Nothing was more fun watching a bunch of grown men dance around after a game while some rap song blared in the clubhouse. It was a really neat experience.

00',01'- Not the same story. Of coarse the loss column had increased from 99', but the guys were just different. Younger, searching for their identity along with a finacial security.

Can't the same be said of the minors as with Select Baseball. Every kid is out there trying to get to the next level and are on a 2 month contract and are free agents after the season? Or am I missing something.

Ken,
Do you think the kids nowadays would have the same "Team" experience that you had in college if they were attending most major DI schools today?

KD,
I think you have a point. I think that is one of the things that make the High School Season so much different and fun.

quote:

Nothing was more fun watching a bunch of grown men dance around after a game while some rap song blared in the clubhouse. It was a really neat experience

KG...you could make money if you sell those pictures to the National Enquirer!!!

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
Ken,
Do you think the kids nowadays would have the same "Team" experience that you had in college if they were attending most major DI schools today?

Depends on the coaches. At least we need those kind of guys in those leadership positions that stand for what is right about the game. I would hope so. My days in college are the most memorable days of my baseball career.

I have watched and read this thread and reread the entire 5 pages, before putting in my 2 cents worth.

Because such a miniscule percentage of any athletes make it into professional sports, my belief is that the most basic reason for participating in any team sport, athletic event, or competition is to build life experience. Without a base of experience in our youth; of winning, losing, adversity, elation, disappointment, etc. we could never handle all of the emotions, or experiences that we encounter in our lives.

The team concept is another of life's experiences, to be learned. The 'next level' for many is not on a diamond. The decisions they make, in their own "next level" of life are based on what they are taught at a younger age, through experience.

As evidenced by this forum, the definition of team differs from post to post. I suspect the definition would differ again if we changed the subject from baseball team, to project team, or military team. Every person's commitment level to the 'team' differs, even if the team goal is the same.

I do find it interesting that all three major sports utilize a trade deadline, for post season eligibility purposes. Once that deadline has passed, your team is what your team is. You play with what you have, from that point forward.

In my opinion, a team is any group of individuals, at any given time, assembled to perform a specific task. Some days it is your ace pitcher on the mound, and some days it's your bullpen catcher keeping your ace in shape throwing long toss 3 days before his next start.
Neither performance is more important, or less valuable than the other, as both are designed to make your task objective successful.
Some days all 16 guys on your roster show up, some days only 11 are there. Either way, the individual players on hand are committed to the successful completion of the task.

I would love to see a community based assembling of teams. I would also love to see AC, AFLAC, and PG schedule events after the completion of MMWS. I'm sure there is some logic behind the scheduling of the events currently, but it seems to me, recognizing the other groups dates as conflicting, would be a benefit to all the players. Don't they all preach how much they are in it for the kids?

My history:

played HS ball for a couple of years, until I discovered the three P's. Perfume, Petroleum, and Paychecks.

Coached everything from T ball through summer HS ball.

President of a youth league of 2000+ kids for 10 years.

Finally learned to enjoy watching my kids play ball about 8 years ago.

Been a dad for 20+ years.