Attention all Hitting Gurus

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"random training with delayed feedback" You're right, I'm not familiar with this theory. Is there someplace you can point me to learn more about it? I am interested in learning.

Bbdoug, the way Coaches and instructors run their hitting practices is referred to as "block training"........They set up stations followed with BP and the players get feedback from the Coaches at each station and as they swing in BP.........The problem with this kind of teaching is in the area of retention....Players may learn something that particular practice, but, does this learning carry over to their games, is the question.....

As in, how many players have good cage swings, but don't hit well in games?

Random training lets the player learn in a different way..........

Another thing to think about is this.......Coaches like to see their players hitting well in pratice because it's good for the player's confidence.......So, pitches get grooved and speed and break are diminished........But, do players really learn from this?......Does this really build confidence or something else that is not so good?

Another area to think about.....If a player gets feedback from the Coach or instructor in the form of looking at video of themselves swinging, if the feedback is presented in a "blocked" way, many times the player will see this as criticism and back away from the instruction......

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There are lots of people on here who have strong opinions on the proper baseball swing. It seems like most of you hypothesize and very few actually have practical experience teaching it.

NCBALL,

You make an interesting point and the internet is a crazy place to be if you are trying to do what is best for your kids and if you are looking for information. Too much information will ruin a kids swing. I say find a belief system and also video tape your kids swing or your own swing. See what feels right and also get feedback from yourself.
What has worked for me is to try and model yourself after a player and try different things. Trial and error is pretty important and I have done a pretty good job teaching my son a good swing.

Good luck and watch out for the landmines (guru's).

BlueDog

The articles you linked on learning theory are interesting and I can see how using the random training feedback and delayed may be useful. But, I have trouble seeing how they can be incorporated into teaching a kid a high level swing in the context of an actual practice with 12-15 kids who need to be kept busy learning and practicing.

Perhaps you could take the time to describe how you would teach a high level swing in that context. If the learning theory works, then I could see it being of considerable benefit. I still don't see how you get away from teaching each of the components of a high level swing without the so-called block training.

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I still don't see how you get away from teaching each of the components of a high level swing.......

Bbdoug, what are the components of a high level swing?

Example: Do you tell a player to put their hands right here, right now?....Or, do you tell a player to put their hands where they won't get trapped and where they will be able to torque the bat handle?

The block way is, right here, right now........The random way is, don't get 'em trapped and allow 'em to be able to provide torque....

Which way is keeping the player busier and with more to think about and comprehend?

Which way will the player retain more of what he learned?

My take on the components of a high level swing is this.......Whatever it takes to consistently square up the bat barrel on the ball and with power..........

Now, if the player figures this out with me prodding him along, will he become an independent thinker?

If I show him where to be and when to be there, will he be dependent on me for all of his thinking?

I like to tell players, figure it out and get back to me when you think you've got it.......

BlueDog - "If I show him where to be and when to be there, will he be dependent on me for all of his thinking?

I like to tell players, figure it out and get back to me when you think you've got it......."

Huh? So, you don't believe in coaching? I suppose if you subscribe to the hypothesis that if you put a million chimps on a million typerwriters, they will eventually write all of the great literary masterpieces, then your notion might be useful, someday, to someone. But, if you hope to teach the fundamentals of baseball to kids, you need to show them how it's done.

"My take on the components of a high level swing is this.......Whatever it takes to consistently square up the bat barrel on the ball and with power.........."

This tells me that you don't know what the components of a high level swing are. There may be something to the learning theory you directed me to, but if you don't know the subject matter you are teaching, the greatest learning methods and theory are useless. That also tells me a lot about why you like the HBH.

quote:

Originally posted by bbdoug:
BlueDog - "If I show him where to be and when to be there, will he be dependent on me for all of his thinking?

I like to tell players, figure it out and get back to me when you think you've got it......."

Huh? So, you don't believe in coaching? I suppose if you subscribe to the hypothesis that if you put a million chimps on a million typerwriters, they will eventually write all of the great literary masterpieces, then your notion might be useful, someday, to someone. But, if you hope to teach the fundamentals of baseball to kids, you need to show them how it's done.

Amen to that.

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This tells me that you don't know what the components of a high level swing are.

The components are, whatever squares up the bat barrel to the ball and with power....Seems to me that's what MLB hitters do....You disagree????

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There may be something to the learning theory you directed me to,......

I'm sure Mr.s Landin, Hebert, Proteau, Hall, Dominguez, Cavozos and Dorion appreciate your approval.....

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.......but if you don't know the subject matter you are teaching, the greatest learning methods and theory are useless.

Well, not really.....The learning theory is not useless, just the subject matter theory........

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.......if you hope to teach the fundamentals of baseball to kids, you need to show them how it's done.

Is that only if those fundamentals agree with your definition?

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I suppose if you subscribe to the hypothesis that if you put a million chimps on a million typerwriters, they will eventually write all of the great literary masterpieces, then your notion might be useful, someday, to someone.

I just had to put this up, again....I just did....

Alot of reading, but, well worth the effort if your agenda is to learn about the two teaching methods, block vs. random.........Instant feedback vs. delayed feedback.......


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/conditionsofpractice2.php

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
We have several hitting gurus on this site..

,

cheers

BlueDog - "The components are, whatever squares up the bat barrel to the ball and with power....Seems to me that's what MLB hitters do....You disagree????"

It may be semantics, but your notion of "whatever squares up the bat barrel to the ball" suggests a great deal of randomness in how a batter swings. In fact, the best batters almost without exception perform specific actions in specific ways in their swings. Those actions can be taught, and in fact must be if the kids we're teaching wish to advance to the next level. And, helping them advance is, in my estimation, our most important responsibility in coaching youth.

"I'm sure Mr.s Landin, Hebert, Proteau, Hall, Dominguez, Cavozos and Dorion appreciate your approval....."

Despite your sarcasm, I am looking into these notions with a friend who is an expert in the field of education and teaching methods, and also teaches athletes in his favorite sport.

"Well, not really.....The learning theory is not useless, just the subject matter theory........"

On the contrary, if you don't understand what you're supposed to be teaching, the best you can hope for is that you don't screw the kid up too much.

"Is that only if those fundamentals agree with your definition?"

If you don't understand the fundamentals, you shouldn't be trying to teach. I have spent a lot to time learning from one of the recognized experts in the field, watching hundreds if not thousands of clips of the best hitters, talking with other coaches about hitting and the physics involved and teaching same to kids up to HS level. So, yes I feel that I have a solid grasp of what a high level swing is, and how to teach it. That being said, my knowledge is incomplete, which is why I'm interested in your teaching theory. If I can find a better way to convey this stuff, I will be happy to change my methods. But simply telling them to do "Whatever it takes to consistently square up the bat barrel on the ball and with power.........." is clearly inadequate.

To see what I'm talking about when I say that the hitting motion is highly specific check out the vids and pics at these sites:

http://firstpickclub.com/

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis

BlueDog,
Interesting article. I like the information. The article discusses a couple of aspects that people need to keep in mind before completely throwing away drills. Random training is good for retention and the ability to adjust. Block training is good for short-term performance and acquisition of a new skill. In order for players to learn that new skill they need the block training and a controlled instant feedback environment as well as a randomized game-like application of the skill. Then they should apply that knowledge and practice in a randomized setting. For example, you may have three stations to work on hitting the off-speed pitch that day. 1. A person or machine throwing off-speed. 2. Hitting to opposite field off of a tee or short toss. 3. Having the batter swing only at a fastball when you throw mixed pitches (or only at curves or change-ups) to make sure that they are recognizing the pitch out of the pitchers hand. Following these drills you throw live BP and mix up all the pitches and have the hitter work on putting their best swing on each one in the zone. This would be just one simple way of using all methods to ensure that the student learns the method, reinforces the neural pathways to accomplish the task, and then applies the situation to a game-like situation to aid in comprehension and retention. This is simply proper teaching method in the Physical Education realm.

Ballcoach, it's an interesting subject to kick around......

Coaches should research and do what they feel comfortable doing, I agree....

I just don't like hitting stations and never did.....

The studies are incomplete and not time-proven enough to draw any blanket conclusion either way.....

Bbdoug, whether you are Booth or just associated with him, I now understand where you're coming from....

And, it's nowhere near where I'm coming from....So, post away and maybe someone will find it worthwhile to chat with you......His hitting theory is not my cup of tea....

BlueDog - "Bbdoug, whether you are Booth or just associated with him, I now understand where you're coming from...."

I'm not Booth and I'm not associated with him. His site just has a lot of good clips.

"And, it's nowhere near where I'm coming from....So, post away and maybe someone will find it worthwhile to chat with you......His hitting theory is not my cup of tea...."

So what exactly is your hitting theory? I haven't seen one in your posts. You emphasize teaching method, but haven't really talked about hitting.

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I have spent a lot to time learning from one of the recognized experts in the field...... So, yes I feel that I have a solid grasp of what a high level swing is, and how to teach it.

Bbdoug, you spent time with an expert.....And, a recognized one, at that...That's more impressive than anything I've ever done..........I don't even know an expert.....

BlueDog: Impressive, quoting my favorite psychologist on Motivation. Clark Hull; his formula



SER = ( SHR x D x K x V) - IR - SIR - SOR

Where SER is reaction potential, sHr is habit strength, D is drive, K is incentive motivation, V is stimulus dynamism, IR is reactive inhibition, SiR is conditioned inhibition, and SOR is the oscillation of reaction potential.

Good stuff...

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To see what I'm talking about when I say that the hitting motion is highly specific check out the vids and pics at these sites:

Well, Bbdoug, I did just what you suggested......And, the following quote is what I found at one of these sites.....

"How you go from your stance to the position in the first photo can be accomplished in various ways. You need to figure out which way works for YOU."


Is it possible the hitting motion isn't quite as specific as you lead us to believe?.....Even some random training in the above quote, Bbdoug.......Is he actually saying, I'll guide you, but figure it out for yourself.........Well, I'll be.....

What you do in your stance is almost immaterial to what a good swing is. The swing starts when it starts, not when you're in your stance. So, yes there are almost as many stances as there are batters. The swings, not so many. f'rinstance, where are the batters' hands when the swing actually starts? Look at the best hitters. Their hands are all right by their back shoulders. Barry Bonds has a little timing bob in his hands before he starts his swing, but the swing always starts with his hands by his back shoulder. I think you will find that consistent with all, or nearly all, the top hitters.

Bbdoug, which one of these swings should be taught?

Which swing should a young player emulate?

One uses posture to help get to the ball and swings in a plane with the shoulders.....The other does neither....

Which one?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:



Bbdoug, which one of these swings should be taught?

Which swing should a young player emulate?

One uses posture to help get to the ball and swings in a plane with the shoulders.....The other does neither....

Which one?

I would say neither complete swing is one to emulate or to teach. I would however teach Aaron's torque in the hips and hand torque. I would try to eliminate the slide forward, but if a hitter has success this way, I wouldn't change it. I think Dunn has some flaws in his swing and that causes him to strike out a lot, but I don't think he would change if you tried to. With his homerun output, I don't think the Reds would let anyone try for fear that stat may drop.

BlueDog.....enough with your questions and etc. and start answering how YOU would TEACH.
Time to Cowboy Up or totally credilibity with anyone that played the game.
Throwing pictures and videos out there is fine....as long as YOU quit hiding behind them and never answering a question.

I'm sure your have a valid point to make and possibly a good one so let it out and let everybody consider what you're saying. Use plain English and I'll bet what you have to say has merit.


bbdoug is smoking your butt just in case you haven't figured it out.

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I would however teach Aaron's torque in the hips and hand torque.

Powertoallfields, me and you are on the same page......

Glad to see you posting......

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I think Dunn has some flaws in his swing and that causes him to strike out a lot, but I don't think he would change if you tried to.

Agreed!

BlueDog

Posted on another bb board:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake83
I played high school and JC baseball and I was still hitting off a tee. It teaches hitters how to drive the ball up the middle or opposite field. I bet you HG at the major league level still practices of a tee

HG
You bet I do. Its a great way to refine your swing and work on things, not having to worry about hitting a live object. Tony Gwynn used it every morning in spring training if I'm not mistaken.

HG is a current mlb player.

I heard a story recently about arod during spring training. He hadn't shown up during batting practice on the field for a few days and a reporter asked why. Turns out he had been working on a tee inside because he wanted to work on mechanics.

Now, tell me again why tee hitting is such a bad idea.

Bluedog

I didn't mean to change the subject, I just ran across that post and thought I'd throw it out.

Yes, I teach rotational hitting. The physics make sense and mlb players use it overwhelmingly. There isn't any meaningful controversy anymore.

Now, again, no matter what style of swing you teach, how do you apply the teaching methods you espouse to actually teaching kids how to hit?

Arod could benefit from learning how to hit in the postseason.......

Maybe, a bit more batting practice?......And, a little less tee?

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Yes, I teach rotational hitting. The physics make sense and mlb players use it overwhelmingly.

Most people have their own definition of rotational......I don't have one..........

I teach what I see happening with MLB hitters........Hands loading against the front hip.......Hands torquing the bat handle.......

Aaron, Dunn, Bonds, Williams and all the rest do it, IMO........

Now, you're probably teaching 'em how to rotate by hitting off a tee.......Been there already.........Scrapped the theory......

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Arod could benefit from learning how to hit in the postseason.......

Maybe, a bit more batting practice?......And, a little less tee?

He was AL MVP this year. His post season problems have nothing to do with using a tee.

Last chance, BlueDog, do you or do you not coach, and if you do how do you incorporate your teaching methods into teaching hitting?

Bbdoug, which swing, Dunn or Aaron?.....

BlueDog, I have read more of your recent posts and you are a real student of hitting and have contributed some positive things here. But your A-Rod comment is simply Ludicrous.
He can hit off anything he wants if he continues to hit like that.
Its great that you want to learn from and emulate MLB hitters, but then you say many don't do it right and that their coaches who have helped them get there don't know what they're doing.
Theory is one thing, but credibility and experience are what most people regard.

QUESTION:

Does being a student of hitting give one the ability to teach hitting? I am not quite sure

As for the AROD statement by BD , I agree that it is a truly inane statement

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Does being a student of hitting give one the ability to teach hitting?

I would say no.....

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But your A-Rod comment is simply Ludicrous.

Yes, it was and was meant to be.......Except the lack of hitting in the post season....Arod has not been a good post season hitter......

Ted Williams and Ty Cobb were both great students of hitting and also exhibited great ability to teach hitting. Others, like Eddie Murray, were great students of hitting but only so-so-teachers. Guys like Charley Lau, Sr. weren't great ballplayers but were both outstanding students of the game as well as superb instructors. So historically you see quite a few guys spanning the spectrum of ability vs. teaching prowess. However, you'll find very few poor students of the game who make great hitting instructors.

What do you think about BP when they only pitch from 40-45 feet. It just drives me crazy, as I believe from high school on up the players should be going against live pitchers their own age or older from 60 feet 6 inches, as that is the distance that they are going to see the ball coming in a real game. What about the pros, do they pitch from less than the regulation mound during BP? It is my opinion that all work for timing purposes should come from practicing against pitchers from regulation mound distances.

Also, do you believe in swinging up, down, or through a baseball, as everyone seems to have an opinion?

quote:

Originally posted by 60 feet 6 inches.....:
What do you think about BP when they only pitch from 40-45 feet. It just drives me crazy, as I believe from high school on up the players should be going against live pitchers their own age or older from 60 feet 6 inches, as that is the distance that they are going to see the ball coming in a real game. What about the pros, do they pitch from less than the regulation mound during BP? It is my opinion that all work for timing purposes should come from practicing against pitchers from regulation mound distances.

Also, do you believe in swinging up, down, or through a baseball, as everyone seems to have an opinion?

College and Pro players rarely take BP from 60'6". They would have to hire MLB Pitchers to throw BP to simulate the speed. They throw shorter to keep the bats quick. Timing has nothing to do with the distance, it has to do with concentration and hand eye coordination. That's why good hitters can hit change-ups and curves. Just my 2 cents worth.

Speaking as a 61yo coach who has been known to throw BP, I would not be able to do it from the mound at the speeds the kids are going to see, and my arm would never take the punishment. I do it from a shorter distance behind an L screen. Seems to work out.

I try to limit my pitch count to 300 a day and if that was from 60'6" rather than 45' I would be finished as a BP pitcher. I think it is important to get an elevated platfrom for downward plane and to protect infield grass. My 65 mph heater from 45' must be equivalent to 85 mph??

TR does being old mean you have experience? watch those OLD sayings you have.