Many pitchers have their back foot drag, many do not.
Is it a bad thing, a good thing, or does it depend on the mechanics the pitcher is most comfortable with?
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Good to drag foot 
Go on youtube and load up "slow motion pitching" and watch the greats like Bob Feller (arguably the fastest hurler of all time), Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemmens, Pedro Martinez, etc ,etc...
Dragging the foot is a normal part of pitching mechanics. Theoretically, as the hip turns at front foot plant, it is near to impossible not to drag the rear foot as the weight hasn't shifted yet to the front foot. Until the weight is transferred and the hip follows through the rear foot has nowhere to go but on the ground- dragging. After weight shift, ball release and hip follow through, the rear foot then suddenly is lifted off the ground at that point. Some lift the foot higher than others, mainly due to both length of stride and the angle of torso rotation.
Foot drag has never been shown to decrease velocity as you can see by any of the pitchers I listed along with just about every other professional pitcher- they all drag their foot when leaving the pitching plate before ball release.
Go on youtube and load up "slow motion pitching" and watch the greats like Bob Feller (arguably the fastest hurler of all time), Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemmens, Pedro Martinez, etc ,etc...
Dragging the foot is a normal part of pitching mechanics. Theoretically, as the hip turns at front foot plant, it is near to impossible not to drag the rear foot as the weight hasn't shifted yet to the front foot. Until the weight is transferred and the hip follows through the rear foot has nowhere to go but on the ground- dragging. After weight shift, ball release and hip follow through, the rear foot then suddenly is lifted off the ground at that point. Some lift the foot higher than others, mainly due to both length of stride and the angle of torso rotation.
Foot drag has never been shown to decrease velocity as you can see by any of the pitchers I listed along with just about every other professional pitcher- they all drag their foot when leaving the pitching plate before ball release.
To expand on what GBMan said, the back foot lifting prior to ball release is often an indicator of another problem - likely an inappropriate posture shift or early shoulder rotation.
The back foot drag line serves as an indicator of certain efficiencies and is useful in determining positioning on the rubber so as to reduce or eliminate postural issues. The back foot drag line is one of the first things I look at when working with a new pitcher.
The back foot drag line serves as an indicator of certain efficiencies and is useful in determining positioning on the rubber so as to reduce or eliminate postural issues. The back foot drag line is one of the first things I look at when working with a new pitcher.
ok thanks good to know. my leg drag went from about 10 inches of a straight line toward home, to my pitching coach said it was bad, so i worked on no drag at all ( my velocity dropped over 10 mph) now my back leg drag falls off immediately (im a righty pitcher it cuts off to the left immediately, and in an arching shape) i also havent been able to get my leg to follow through
To expand a little on Gingerbread's and Roger's excellent advice, here are some of the things that pitching coach Tom House says about drag line:
There are only a few elite pitchers with no drag line at all--they are an exception, not at all common. That's not to say their delivery doesn't work for them, but it may be unlikely to work well for others.
Almost all elite pitchers have a drag line that ends approximately two of their shoe-lengths from the rubber.
It doesn't matter what shape the drag line is, straight line, arc, zig-zag, etc....they're all fine. What does matter is that the drag line should end on a line middle-of-rubber to middle-of-homeplate.
There are only a few elite pitchers with no drag line at all--they are an exception, not at all common. That's not to say their delivery doesn't work for them, but it may be unlikely to work well for others.
Almost all elite pitchers have a drag line that ends approximately two of their shoe-lengths from the rubber.
It doesn't matter what shape the drag line is, straight line, arc, zig-zag, etc....they're all fine. What does matter is that the drag line should end on a line middle-of-rubber to middle-of-homeplate.
if your drag line is outside your stride line it COULD be a sign of upper body getting out front too quick. drag line should start inside of stride line.
just learned that last night watching a common mistakes/corrections dvd by fred corral.
just learned that last night watching a common mistakes/corrections dvd by fred corral.
That being the case.... "if your drag line is outside your stride line it COULD be a sign of upper body getting out front too quick. drag line should start inside of stride line."
would it be reasonable to think a dragling turning immediately left for a righty pitcher to be hes not getting his shoulders around?
would it be reasonable to think a dragling turning immediately left for a righty pitcher to be hes not getting his shoulders around?
The Emperor’s New Drag!
At the conclusion of his courts demonstration, the Emperor regally circled the mound in front of his kneeling/taking a knee subjects, when suddenly the youngest child in the inner circle pointed to the dirt in front of the rubber and shouted,
“ Look, there are no drag lines”
The Emperor continued to smile, passing on his blessing, collecting his appearance fee, and quickly exited to the cheers and applause of the adults. Yet word of what happened rapidly spread throughout the kingdom, and it wasn’t long before the adults began checking hurlers more carefully and realized that quite a few of the noble elite were stark naked of draglines. What’s more, they had back feet that were most definitely in the air at release! If this wasn’t shocking enough, it was also discovered that several members of the Royal Hall Of Fame were not drag either!
All that could be seen in the dirt after many “elite level” nobles had departed the sacred mound was a small worn circle where the toe had tapped down AFTER RELEASE. The back foot had appeared to jump into the air, only to tap back down momentarily after the ball had left the throwing hand. Indeed, there were no traces of continuous draglines in the dirt to be found anywhere.
Not long after, a suspicious group of travel team gypsies appeared outside the kingdom walls hurling seeds with a back foot that didn’t tap down at all! Amazingly their rear foot remained in the air continuously once having left the rubber.
Initially these gypsy types were thought to be extremely dangerous individuals. Especially since some of them appeared to throw an “effortless” 100 mph as if it were magic.
Needless to say the kingdom was at first thrown into turmoil, yet with time it didn’t appear to matter much whether there was a drag line or not. Some great ones had it, some great ones didn’t. An enlightened populace began to shift its attention toward a more holistic understanding. It would have been forgotten entirely were it not for the Emperor and his court returning yearly in full regalia to demonstrate drag, while demanding an appearance fee of course. There was one change however, young children were no longer allowed to attend.
At the conclusion of his courts demonstration, the Emperor regally circled the mound in front of his kneeling/taking a knee subjects, when suddenly the youngest child in the inner circle pointed to the dirt in front of the rubber and shouted,
“ Look, there are no drag lines”
The Emperor continued to smile, passing on his blessing, collecting his appearance fee, and quickly exited to the cheers and applause of the adults. Yet word of what happened rapidly spread throughout the kingdom, and it wasn’t long before the adults began checking hurlers more carefully and realized that quite a few of the noble elite were stark naked of draglines. What’s more, they had back feet that were most definitely in the air at release! If this wasn’t shocking enough, it was also discovered that several members of the Royal Hall Of Fame were not drag either!
All that could be seen in the dirt after many “elite level” nobles had departed the sacred mound was a small worn circle where the toe had tapped down AFTER RELEASE. The back foot had appeared to jump into the air, only to tap back down momentarily after the ball had left the throwing hand. Indeed, there were no traces of continuous draglines in the dirt to be found anywhere.
Not long after, a suspicious group of travel team gypsies appeared outside the kingdom walls hurling seeds with a back foot that didn’t tap down at all! Amazingly their rear foot remained in the air continuously once having left the rubber.
Initially these gypsy types were thought to be extremely dangerous individuals. Especially since some of them appeared to throw an “effortless” 100 mph as if it were magic.
Needless to say the kingdom was at first thrown into turmoil, yet with time it didn’t appear to matter much whether there was a drag line or not. Some great ones had it, some great ones didn’t. An enlightened populace began to shift its attention toward a more holistic understanding. It would have been forgotten entirely were it not for the Emperor and his court returning yearly in full regalia to demonstrate drag, while demanding an appearance fee of course. There was one change however, young children were no longer allowed to attend.
Nice First post. Welcome.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:All Hail to the Drag Queen.
Nice First post. Welcome.
5 years of pent up rage at the machine
That's pretty good sarcasm, TG2, but there are some problems with your message.
The suggestion that draglines are a feature of most (not "all", but "most") elite deliveries is really accurate, while your more smoke-and-mirrors characterization, "some do, some don't" is meant to convey that perhaps the numbers are equal. But you know they aren't equal at all, which is why you had to search so hard to find a few representative clips that you appear to think demonstrates your point...
But, even the vids that you presented don't demonstrate your point...if anything, they just just show the incompleteness of my earlier characterization of what a dragline is and what it can be used for.
To be a little more complete about it, House has suggested in his discussion of pitchers' draglines that it doesn't matter whether the post foot comes up and then drops back down to the ground or whether it is an unboken line of any particular shape...what matters is where the post foot leaves the ground for the last time. That is the end of the dragline and it should be on a line middle-rubber to middle-HP.
The end of the dragline, or the spot where the toe taps back down in some of your video, can be used to suggest an optimum starting place on the rubber: That is, the dragline is a highly reproducible part of any individual's delivery (in case you never noticed), however, its end-point will vary according to where the pitcher starts his motion. It might be good for many pitchers to try starting from the spot on the rubber that results in their dragline finishing middle-middle, as discussed above.
Don't you think? Or don't you?
The suggestion that draglines are a feature of most (not "all", but "most") elite deliveries is really accurate, while your more smoke-and-mirrors characterization, "some do, some don't" is meant to convey that perhaps the numbers are equal. But you know they aren't equal at all, which is why you had to search so hard to find a few representative clips that you appear to think demonstrates your point...
But, even the vids that you presented don't demonstrate your point...if anything, they just just show the incompleteness of my earlier characterization of what a dragline is and what it can be used for.
To be a little more complete about it, House has suggested in his discussion of pitchers' draglines that it doesn't matter whether the post foot comes up and then drops back down to the ground or whether it is an unboken line of any particular shape...what matters is where the post foot leaves the ground for the last time. That is the end of the dragline and it should be on a line middle-rubber to middle-HP.
The end of the dragline, or the spot where the toe taps back down in some of your video, can be used to suggest an optimum starting place on the rubber: That is, the dragline is a highly reproducible part of any individual's delivery (in case you never noticed), however, its end-point will vary according to where the pitcher starts his motion. It might be good for many pitchers to try starting from the spot on the rubber that results in their dragline finishing middle-middle, as discussed above.
Don't you think? Or don't you?
Oops…. forgot to add those darn footnotes.
1) As sometimes happens in times of uncertainty, the well ordered kingdom went slightly berserk for a period. Unquestioning acceptance of authority gave way to the immediacy of seeing for oneself. Of course one can only see what one is capable of seeing and many could not believe their own eyes. Respected experts were called into question; rioting ensued, and random acts of hurling were occurring everywhere. Some days it was total chaos… in theory.
2) In the midst of all this chaos an organization named SAD (Surfs Against Drag) emerged. It was a group originally formed for the protection of its minority members and eventually developed a position in total opposition to Drag. It was their belief that the less drag, the better. Ignited by the drag-less gypsies it garnered enough attention to eventually be considered atop the ivory tower. After all, there was no denying examples of the drag-less had already been admitted to the Royal Hall Of Fame…Ryan, Palmer, Gossage, perhaps many more upon closer examination.
3) One of the most admired SAD members was the “side arming” Dennis Eckersley. Not only did his foot come waaaay off the ground, never to return, his furry appearance, unusual release point, and ability to “paint”, made him a hero to those who were slightly different or found it impossible to drag. With perhaps the greatest painter in history firmly on their side, it now seemed ridiculous to argue that throwing drag-less somehow led to control problems. Furthermore, as with many of the drag-less, it became next to impossible to mark where his drag-line ended as it hardly ever started!
4) In addition to the excellent control established by drag-less hurlers like Palmer, Schilling and Eckersley, SAD members also realized that they had quite a number of extremely hard throwers among their ranks. In addition to the long striding Ryan, (who with age, eventually slowed and dragged slightly), Gibson, and Gossage, there appeared to be no shortage of seed throwing current hurlers such as Lidge, Bard, Chamberlain, Cueto, Bailey, Rodney and Broxton, to name a few.
5) SAD members from Buckingham court argued that focusing on keeping the foot on the ground created…well…KIND OF A DRAG. Dragging the foot actually restricted optimal rotational capabilities. They argued that the foot should be encouraged to fly up in as uninhibited manner as possible, and not drag on the ground at all! Worrying about drag was like the tail wagging the dog they said.
http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684637828885886
Such was the confusion at that time, a kingdom divided. Many didn’t know what to believe. Eventually most lost interest in drag and turned their attention to more essential causes. After all, hadn’t many learned to hurl quite well long before the emperor’s arrival?
1) As sometimes happens in times of uncertainty, the well ordered kingdom went slightly berserk for a period. Unquestioning acceptance of authority gave way to the immediacy of seeing for oneself. Of course one can only see what one is capable of seeing and many could not believe their own eyes. Respected experts were called into question; rioting ensued, and random acts of hurling were occurring everywhere. Some days it was total chaos… in theory.
2) In the midst of all this chaos an organization named SAD (Surfs Against Drag) emerged. It was a group originally formed for the protection of its minority members and eventually developed a position in total opposition to Drag. It was their belief that the less drag, the better. Ignited by the drag-less gypsies it garnered enough attention to eventually be considered atop the ivory tower. After all, there was no denying examples of the drag-less had already been admitted to the Royal Hall Of Fame…Ryan, Palmer, Gossage, perhaps many more upon closer examination.
3) One of the most admired SAD members was the “side arming” Dennis Eckersley. Not only did his foot come waaaay off the ground, never to return, his furry appearance, unusual release point, and ability to “paint”, made him a hero to those who were slightly different or found it impossible to drag. With perhaps the greatest painter in history firmly on their side, it now seemed ridiculous to argue that throwing drag-less somehow led to control problems. Furthermore, as with many of the drag-less, it became next to impossible to mark where his drag-line ended as it hardly ever started!
4) In addition to the excellent control established by drag-less hurlers like Palmer, Schilling and Eckersley, SAD members also realized that they had quite a number of extremely hard throwers among their ranks. In addition to the long striding Ryan, (who with age, eventually slowed and dragged slightly), Gibson, and Gossage, there appeared to be no shortage of seed throwing current hurlers such as Lidge, Bard, Chamberlain, Cueto, Bailey, Rodney and Broxton, to name a few.
5) SAD members from Buckingham court argued that focusing on keeping the foot on the ground created…well…KIND OF A DRAG. Dragging the foot actually restricted optimal rotational capabilities. They argued that the foot should be encouraged to fly up in as uninhibited manner as possible, and not drag on the ground at all! Worrying about drag was like the tail wagging the dog they said.
http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684637828885886
Such was the confusion at that time, a kingdom divided. Many didn’t know what to believe. Eventually most lost interest in drag and turned their attention to more essential causes. After all, hadn’t many learned to hurl quite well long before the emperor’s arrival?
TG2,
You've definitely got the soul of poet, but your poetic fable lacks insight.
What's worse, you use lots of video from very poor angles in support of your witty ideas. The rear view TV camera angles that you often use functionally reduces the 60'6" distance from the rubber to home plate to an inch or two...so a two-foot dragline from that perspective would be 1/30th of an inch or two. Amazing what you can argue if you ignore parallax entirely, huh?
House's conclusions about dragline were derived from actual motion analysis studies of pitchers, and his database contains more than 500 at present date.
I tend to get more detail from video like the following clip, than I do from your smoke and mirrors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnehldvI04Y
BTW, here's Andrew Bailey, whom you think doesn't have a drag line?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpcCfuqRA0M
Check out a decent side-view of Nolan Ryan toward the end of this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cTv-LrzIPw
Do you think The Express was faking his dragline, just to please Tom House and Randy Johnson? LOL.
By the way, you keep making a point (with red circles) that a given pitcher's post foot is often off the ground at the exact time of ball release..... so what? Does that mean that the dragging post foot wasn't telling you anything about direction of momentum during the approach to ball release?
You've definitely got the soul of poet, but your poetic fable lacks insight.
What's worse, you use lots of video from very poor angles in support of your witty ideas. The rear view TV camera angles that you often use functionally reduces the 60'6" distance from the rubber to home plate to an inch or two...so a two-foot dragline from that perspective would be 1/30th of an inch or two. Amazing what you can argue if you ignore parallax entirely, huh?
House's conclusions about dragline were derived from actual motion analysis studies of pitchers, and his database contains more than 500 at present date.
I tend to get more detail from video like the following clip, than I do from your smoke and mirrors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnehldvI04Y
BTW, here's Andrew Bailey, whom you think doesn't have a drag line?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpcCfuqRA0M
Check out a decent side-view of Nolan Ryan toward the end of this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cTv-LrzIPw
Do you think The Express was faking his dragline, just to please Tom House and Randy Johnson? LOL.
By the way, you keep making a point (with red circles) that a given pitcher's post foot is often off the ground at the exact time of ball release..... so what? Does that mean that the dragging post foot wasn't telling you anything about direction of momentum during the approach to ball release?
LA,
For the record that would be Homer Bailey not Andrew. Would Homer have a long enough drag line for you to work your rubber positioning magic? How long does a drag line need to be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...URYY&feature=related
More than once I have heard the champions of drag say that they want the foot to be in contact with the ground at release. Perhaps their position has recently (as of yesterday)changed?
Where would you place Zach Minor on the rubber given his drag line?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fSHMEMd51g
Where would you place Cliff Lee on the rubber given his Drag Line? Hopefully this Lee clip will come up in all its clarity. If not, perhaps you could provide us with one of your excellent Cliff Lee’s.
http://s267.photobucket.com/al...urrent=Cliff_Lee.flv
In conclusion we are all entitled to our beliefs. If you have been convinced that tracking drag lines and marks in the dirt provides something of great value and is worthy of your continued attention, all I can say is, happy hunting and thanks for the exchange.
For the record that would be Homer Bailey not Andrew. Would Homer have a long enough drag line for you to work your rubber positioning magic? How long does a drag line need to be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...URYY&feature=related
More than once I have heard the champions of drag say that they want the foot to be in contact with the ground at release. Perhaps their position has recently (as of yesterday)changed?
Where would you place Zach Minor on the rubber given his drag line?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fSHMEMd51g
Where would you place Cliff Lee on the rubber given his Drag Line? Hopefully this Lee clip will come up in all its clarity. If not, perhaps you could provide us with one of your excellent Cliff Lee’s.
http://s267.photobucket.com/al...urrent=Cliff_Lee.flv
In conclusion we are all entitled to our beliefs. If you have been convinced that tracking drag lines and marks in the dirt provides something of great value and is worthy of your continued attention, all I can say is, happy hunting and thanks for the exchange.
TG2,
The Kingdom has a much larger decision to ponder?
We to are not practitioners of recovery foot drag caused by forwards back bending leading to ball arm leg counter balancing resulting in rotational shortening or as we like to say the anchored back leg.
Our approach is to actually use the large muscles in the legs by keeping them aligned in the direction of the pitch causing a powerful push off pitchers plate by driving the ball arm leg forwards then transfer to the next driving leg, the way you walk and run.
In other words bring the outfield true Crow-hop to the mound.
Here’s an MLB participant whom had just learned this bottom half mechanism
Only weeks before he perfected it! No dragline there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdZdfOkfG5U
The Kingdom has a much larger decision to ponder?
We to are not practitioners of recovery foot drag caused by forwards back bending leading to ball arm leg counter balancing resulting in rotational shortening or as we like to say the anchored back leg.
Our approach is to actually use the large muscles in the legs by keeping them aligned in the direction of the pitch causing a powerful push off pitchers plate by driving the ball arm leg forwards then transfer to the next driving leg, the way you walk and run.
In other words bring the outfield true Crow-hop to the mound.
Here’s an MLB participant whom had just learned this bottom half mechanism
Only weeks before he perfected it! No dragline there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdZdfOkfG5U
TG2,
Thanks for (mostly) trying to drop the pointless sarcasm.
Homer Bailey also clearly has a drag line and it is obviously a shorter one than that of many other fine pitchers. The same looks to be true of Zach Minor. You may find that to be extremely important, perhaps because you appear to think that the "Kingdom", as you put it, has beliefs inscribed on stone tablets...and this may be your big chance to show that the "Kingdom" is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Yes, TG2, we are all entitled to our beliefs. That's a firm grasp of the obvious, isn't it?
What I don't get is that you appear to be infuriated and personally offended that other people who study pitching mechanics may have observed something interesting and potentially useful, and they may have put those observations into a useful framework for understanding one small aspect of pitching mechanics.
Pitching coaches worry all the time about reproducibility of release point, which is an ephemeral location in the air. They worry all the time about reproducibility of the landing spot of the stride foot--House once told me that Nolan Ryan's stride foot pretty much landed in the exact same cleat marks on every pitch when he was going good. (I wonder if you find that meaningful?) Coaches worry all the time about the reproducibility of every important part of a pitcher's mechanics....so, yes, if a pitcher's dragline is a reproducible part of his mechanics, and if it can tell us anything important about "tuning" his delivery for his optimal performance...well, heck yeah...I'd say that makes it worthwhile to look at lines in the dirt.
The difference between you and me seems to be: You already believe that this is a totally pointless avenue of thought, while I think that the evidence I've seen and heard is credible.
Note also, there is a big difference between the level of understanding of details and minutiae that a coach/teacher may need in order to effectively do his job versus what an athlete needs to know to perform. Another firm grasp of the obvious, but I thought I'd make the distinction in advance...
Thanks for (mostly) trying to drop the pointless sarcasm.
Homer Bailey also clearly has a drag line and it is obviously a shorter one than that of many other fine pitchers. The same looks to be true of Zach Minor. You may find that to be extremely important, perhaps because you appear to think that the "Kingdom", as you put it, has beliefs inscribed on stone tablets...and this may be your big chance to show that the "Kingdom" is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Yes, TG2, we are all entitled to our beliefs. That's a firm grasp of the obvious, isn't it?
What I don't get is that you appear to be infuriated and personally offended that other people who study pitching mechanics may have observed something interesting and potentially useful, and they may have put those observations into a useful framework for understanding one small aspect of pitching mechanics.
Pitching coaches worry all the time about reproducibility of release point, which is an ephemeral location in the air. They worry all the time about reproducibility of the landing spot of the stride foot--House once told me that Nolan Ryan's stride foot pretty much landed in the exact same cleat marks on every pitch when he was going good. (I wonder if you find that meaningful?) Coaches worry all the time about the reproducibility of every important part of a pitcher's mechanics....so, yes, if a pitcher's dragline is a reproducible part of his mechanics, and if it can tell us anything important about "tuning" his delivery for his optimal performance...well, heck yeah...I'd say that makes it worthwhile to look at lines in the dirt.
The difference between you and me seems to be: You already believe that this is a totally pointless avenue of thought, while I think that the evidence I've seen and heard is credible.
Note also, there is a big difference between the level of understanding of details and minutiae that a coach/teacher may need in order to effectively do his job versus what an athlete needs to know to perform. Another firm grasp of the obvious, but I thought I'd make the distinction in advance...
i know i've read and watched several things from very respected college pitching coaches about looking at the drag line to diagnose faults. they seem to think at least most pitchers have a drag line and its direction is important.
quote:One of the most admired SAD members was the “side arming” Dennis Eckersley. Not only did his foot come waaaay off the ground, never to return, his furry appearance, unusual release point, and ability to “paint”, made him a hero to those who were slightly different or found it impossible to drag. With perhaps the greatest painter in history firmly on their side, it now seemed ridiculous to argue that throwing drag-less somehow led to control problems. Furthermore, as with many of the drag-less, it became next to impossible to mark where his drag-line ended as it hardly ever started!
What a production, why?
Are you a House hater? Trying to develop a name as a "Rebel"? Did Dennis Eckersly put you up to this??
None of these guys you are lampooning were doing anything more than explaining a theory. I believe they all mentioned that there are those without a dragline..I don't understand the theatrics..you act as if someones wronged you greatly and want to cast down some evil. I'm a huge fan of unique, what I call personal delivery..do some research and look at La's kids delivery...he rivals the Eck, yes he does have a dragline. I think you may have mistaken their knowledge of what it means with; they are advocating it as an important criterian...nope just one of many...sort of like Mills thinking that people who long toss, only long toss and no other drill or prep work..in short making a mountain out of a molehill.
To me (and the reason I withheld my comments) dragline is behind and pitching is an upfront event imo whats behind is worthy of only notice of the p coach and then only as a way point..perhaps if there is an issue it is one more aspect to consider when making the adjustment to the issue..really technical but is it a thought I'd put in my pitchers skull..no I wouldn't. Now this is debatable, obviously Roger La and G-bread may feel it is more or less than that. I just don't get why you have to go after them as if they were being wrong. I wish you'd get to your point..good production though..you got that software workin for ya
Some members of SAD (Surfs Against Drag) asked that I post this. I strongly prefer to post only game footage as bullpens never appear to capture game time intent. I’ll let others decide whether this approximates what Eckersley back foot does in an actual game.
Of course there must be a reason why Eckersley’s foot doesn’t tap back down after shooting up off the rubber like the many other examples we have seen. Perhaps that explanation would go a long way toward explaining why some pitchers drag and some don’t?
Yardbird,
Unfortunately Larson must have forgotten this technique faster than he learned it, as he was never able to come close to repeating this kind of success?
I’d prefer the kingdom not be trampled to death by a Marshallite invasion, so perhaps we could divert the barbarian hoards toward a new separate post.
You have interest in using run up techniques for baseball pitchers. My query… I’ve often wondered what would happen if javelin throwers decided to adopt a more rotational technique? More like the discus and shot put. It was actually tried and there were reports of ridiculously far throws but often in the direction of the stands. Thus the technique was outlawed because of the fear of impaled spectators. Perhaps I’ll start a new post on the topic.
LA,
Were you able to confirm whether your sources believe the foot should be in contact with the ground at release? I think if you do a little research you will indeed find out this is what has been taught. Would you teach this to Eckersley and all the others whose foot in not on the ground at release?
The tail continues to wag the dog....
Of course there must be a reason why Eckersley’s foot doesn’t tap back down after shooting up off the rubber like the many other examples we have seen. Perhaps that explanation would go a long way toward explaining why some pitchers drag and some don’t?
Yardbird,
Unfortunately Larson must have forgotten this technique faster than he learned it, as he was never able to come close to repeating this kind of success?
I’d prefer the kingdom not be trampled to death by a Marshallite invasion, so perhaps we could divert the barbarian hoards toward a new separate post.
You have interest in using run up techniques for baseball pitchers. My query… I’ve often wondered what would happen if javelin throwers decided to adopt a more rotational technique? More like the discus and shot put. It was actually tried and there were reports of ridiculously far throws but often in the direction of the stands. Thus the technique was outlawed because of the fear of impaled spectators. Perhaps I’ll start a new post on the topic.
LA,
Were you able to confirm whether your sources believe the foot should be in contact with the ground at release? I think if you do a little research you will indeed find out this is what has been taught. Would you teach this to Eckersley and all the others whose foot in not on the ground at release?
The tail continues to wag the dog....
TG2,
To make this short, I think that the end-point of the dragline, for those pitchers who have one, can be used to position a pitcher on the rubber...
For young pitchers who may be having balance problems in their delivery, I think that getting them into a more stable starting posture, one that they can stay balanced with through to the release point, will usually produce a dragline.
I think that pitchers, young or old, who have a short dragline or no dragline but do not have any obvious problems with balance and control of the strike zone, should be left alone.
But, I also do not think that "exceptions" should necessarily be used as teaching models, nor do "exceptions" completely negate the use of a valuable teaching concept that is based on what a majority of elite players may share in common...if you don't get that, then baseball must seem completely random to you.
I am a big fan of Dennis Eckersley's career myself and would not dream of presuming to change (with 20-20 hindsight) something that worked very, very well for him.
Generally, of course, when people like the OP ask questions, they do want some help understanding something. If DE posts a question about that homerun ball he gave up to Kirk Gibson, I'll be sure to tell him about his lack of any discernible dragline
To make this short, I think that the end-point of the dragline, for those pitchers who have one, can be used to position a pitcher on the rubber...
For young pitchers who may be having balance problems in their delivery, I think that getting them into a more stable starting posture, one that they can stay balanced with through to the release point, will usually produce a dragline.
I think that pitchers, young or old, who have a short dragline or no dragline but do not have any obvious problems with balance and control of the strike zone, should be left alone.
But, I also do not think that "exceptions" should necessarily be used as teaching models, nor do "exceptions" completely negate the use of a valuable teaching concept that is based on what a majority of elite players may share in common...if you don't get that, then baseball must seem completely random to you.
I am a big fan of Dennis Eckersley's career myself and would not dream of presuming to change (with 20-20 hindsight) something that worked very, very well for him.
Generally, of course, when people like the OP ask questions, they do want some help understanding something. If DE posts a question about that homerun ball he gave up to Kirk Gibson, I'll be sure to tell him about his lack of any discernible dragline
I must admit this is the most entertaining discussion we have had in the pitching forum for quite some time. I think I will go watch my son's next bullpen and do some drag line analysis. I am not sure if he will be admitted to the Kingdom of SAD or not. He is certainly not a member of the Genghis Marshal Khan clan.
Having reviewed the arguments presented herein, IMO, it is a matter of preference and dependent on the individual's mechanics. However, should a pitcher happen to drag their toe, it is possible that information could be gained from the dragline. Whether such information could or would be put to effective use is a whole 'nother Oprah. IMO, there are other factors which would tend to override the direction and location of the dragline for most pitchers.
Bet that changed a lot of people's minds.
Bet that changed a lot of people's minds.
LA,
Just wanted to mention I know I’m not alone in appreciating some of the amazing clips you have posted for public viewing. I especially liked the occasional sound track a ways back. Have sent many of them to my son.
Thought I was going to post a few times and be done with this…but your responses keep ******* me back in! A good thing I suppose, although I think we’ve about exhausted this one.
Okay enough Mr Nice Guy.
quote:But, I also do not think that "exceptions" should necessarily be used as teaching models, nor do "exceptions" completely negate the use of a valuable teaching concept that is based on what a majority of elite players may share in common...if you don't get that, then baseball must seem completely random to you.
Not quite sure what you’re referring to when you speak of “exceptions”.
But from the several hundred clips and photos I’ve been looking at the last few days a summary might go something like this….
Hurlers with virtually no drag lines and no tap down, such as Eckersley. Schilling, and Lee are certainly a small minority.
Hurlers whose foot quickly leaves the ground and then momentarily taps down AFTER RELEASE, making a small mark, such as the young Ryan, Gibson, Martinez, and Gossage, make up a much larger group.
And finally Hurlers who have their back foot in the air at release, with either a small trace of a dragline or tap down mark, such as Musina and Halladay may be close to a majority.
Any chance your avoiding answering my query as to whether the prophets of drag want the foot on the ground at release?
Of course if the prophets of drag convert all the young impressionable children of the kingdom before age 12 (and more than a few adults) all of the variations above will be relegated to “history”. That might not be so bad provided drag, and foot on the ground at release, was proven to be mechanically superior in all cases…. although it’s a little scary to imagine what that might look like.
I don't know who this TG2 is, but I like him and all his vid clips.
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TG2,
I avoided quarreling with your point about the exact timing of ball release vs post foot coming off the ground for two reasons: (1) I don't disagree with your observations about that and, (2) I'm not sure why you are convinced that "post-foot-still-on-the-ground at time of ball release" is one of the Kingdom's Cherished Rules.
I discussed the purposes I think drag-lines can be used for to the best of my ability, but I hope that I haven't tried to exaggerate their meaning or value beyond what is there.
Here are House's words about that timing in "The Art & Science of Pitching":
"...a pitcher's back foot should come off the ground at about the same time the baseball leaves his hand..."
You can read what you like into that statement, but in my interpretation, "about the same time" is not at all the same as saying "at exactly the same moment". To me, this statement allows for a range of possibilities, including guys who do release the ball just before their post foot pops up to guys that you have shown, who release the ball from .03 to .06 sec (1 to 2 vid frames) after the post foot pops up into the air.
The small minority of elite pitchers who do not fall within this range (i.e., those who have no drag-line at all) are the "exceptions" I was referring to earlier. I don't quibble with their success and I wouldn't try to change them if I could.
Still: If a young guy with no drag-line is struggling and it looks like lack of stability and balance are clear problems in his delivery, well...I wouldn't hesitate to suggest adjustments to his posture that will happen to produce a drag-line (note: None of this includes any instruction to "drag your foot"...the drag-line is a result of stable posture, not the other way around...that really would be the tail wagging the dog, and maybe that's part of the misunderstanding between us?).
Hey, thanks for the kudos on my YouTube vid clips--I appreciate it. It's a nice hobby that mostly keeps me out of trouble.
I avoided quarreling with your point about the exact timing of ball release vs post foot coming off the ground for two reasons: (1) I don't disagree with your observations about that and, (2) I'm not sure why you are convinced that "post-foot-still-on-the-ground at time of ball release" is one of the Kingdom's Cherished Rules.
I discussed the purposes I think drag-lines can be used for to the best of my ability, but I hope that I haven't tried to exaggerate their meaning or value beyond what is there.
Here are House's words about that timing in "The Art & Science of Pitching":
"...a pitcher's back foot should come off the ground at about the same time the baseball leaves his hand..."
You can read what you like into that statement, but in my interpretation, "about the same time" is not at all the same as saying "at exactly the same moment". To me, this statement allows for a range of possibilities, including guys who do release the ball just before their post foot pops up to guys that you have shown, who release the ball from .03 to .06 sec (1 to 2 vid frames) after the post foot pops up into the air.
The small minority of elite pitchers who do not fall within this range (i.e., those who have no drag-line at all) are the "exceptions" I was referring to earlier. I don't quibble with their success and I wouldn't try to change them if I could.
Still: If a young guy with no drag-line is struggling and it looks like lack of stability and balance are clear problems in his delivery, well...I wouldn't hesitate to suggest adjustments to his posture that will happen to produce a drag-line (note: None of this includes any instruction to "drag your foot"...the drag-line is a result of stable posture, not the other way around...that really would be the tail wagging the dog, and maybe that's part of the misunderstanding between us?).
Hey, thanks for the kudos on my YouTube vid clips--I appreciate it. It's a nice hobby that mostly keeps me out of trouble.
TG2
You mean repeating a perfecto over and over, tough order? He had a traditional top half so the likely hood of his previous degradation not effecting his performance is slim, but I get your drift.
How realm typical is this unworthy effort, you seemed to have a grasp, I was dec’d.
Wow, invasion of one speaking of how we understand the mechanics of dragline or no and how we perform it? Sorrrry! Your not one of those subjects after all are you?
Preferences aside I believe I’m the only one west of the east practicing these tenets hardy trampacapable and here I am thinking there might be someone to hold an actual discussion with here, you fooled me once now.
You mean to tell me there is someone out there who is willing to discuss mechanics in a rational informative utilitarian manner, don’t think so?
I don’t know, I’ve been there and they bring big clubs and use big words like cult and conspiracy when I’m talking mechanics and besides the discussion was about how the ball arm leg leaves the pitchers plate and we do that also, we just don’t drag anything or pop ( ceptin the elbow at finish) it up.
Keen would better describe it, I believe the fastest you can attain is a brisk Crow hop trot because of the rules keeping you engaged on the pitchers plate that has your ball arm leg driving forwards with its postural orientation being forwards through the whole drive of your mass with the ball arm foot driving out to 175 degrees finish leaving you in a Drop step position ready to field.
I don’t have to imagine it, what would happen is the centrifugal affect would put them in the same predicament that all traditional centripetal mechanics pitchers get into with all the same injurious actions.
Rold has already been here and then directed to Dr.Marshall for complete biomechanical breakdown of the comparisons of several Javelin throwers and his pitching and throwing mechanics that are very close.
quote:Unfortunately Larson must have forgotten this technique faster than he learned it, as he was never able to come close to repeating this kind of success?
You mean repeating a perfecto over and over, tough order? He had a traditional top half so the likely hood of his previous degradation not effecting his performance is slim, but I get your drift.
quote:”I’d prefer the kingdom not be trampled to death by a Marshallite invasion”
How realm typical is this unworthy effort, you seemed to have a grasp, I was dec’d.
Wow, invasion of one speaking of how we understand the mechanics of dragline or no and how we perform it? Sorrrry! Your not one of those subjects after all are you?
Preferences aside I believe I’m the only one west of the east practicing these tenets hardy trampacapable and here I am thinking there might be someone to hold an actual discussion with here, you fooled me once now.
quote:“so perhaps we could divert the barbarian hoards toward a new separate post”
You mean to tell me there is someone out there who is willing to discuss mechanics in a rational informative utilitarian manner, don’t think so?
I don’t know, I’ve been there and they bring big clubs and use big words like cult and conspiracy when I’m talking mechanics and besides the discussion was about how the ball arm leg leaves the pitchers plate and we do that also, we just don’t drag anything or pop ( ceptin the elbow at finish) it up.
quote:”You have interest in using run up techniques for baseball pitchers. My query”
Keen would better describe it, I believe the fastest you can attain is a brisk Crow hop trot because of the rules keeping you engaged on the pitchers plate that has your ball arm leg driving forwards with its postural orientation being forwards through the whole drive of your mass with the ball arm foot driving out to 175 degrees finish leaving you in a Drop step position ready to field.
quote:“I’ve often wondered what would happen if javelin throwers decided to adopt a more rotational technique?”
I don’t have to imagine it, what would happen is the centrifugal affect would put them in the same predicament that all traditional centripetal mechanics pitchers get into with all the same injurious actions.
quote:“Perhaps I’ll start a new post on the topic.”
Rold has already been here and then directed to Dr.Marshall for complete biomechanical breakdown of the comparisons of several Javelin throwers and his pitching and throwing mechanics that are very close.
LA,
My reason for persisting with the “foot in contact with the ground at release” question comes from a reliable source that related this was the latest instruction in drag. Thought you might be able to confirm this one way or the other. Let’s hope it’s not so, as it’s a bit absurd to think that so many of the best where mechanically inept.
A closer look at some of my first clips reveal that the back foot has actually left the ground several frames before release at 30 fps. This may appear to be splitting hairs, but I would think someone serious about the biomechanics of throwing and it’s sequencing would think it’s significant. Obviously when the foot is exiting the ground this early, there is going to be little or no dragline.
In the case of Martinez, young Ryan, Gibson, Schilling, and I suspect many others; the foot leaves the ground shortly after high cocked and is definitely airborne by the time of external rotation. Tap down, if it occurs, is after release. Whether this creates a problem determining where the airborne foot is at release, so you can in turn, determine where to stand on the rubber I wouldn’t know.
Given your interest in low release point pitchers, I accessed my own data bank
and dug up yet another rare fossil, Hall Of Famer Rollie Fingers.
Is it possible that sidearm pitchers might be slightly more inclined to get their foot in the air because of the greater emphasis on rotation in the horizontal plane? Many other factors involved of course.
This would certainly be a better approach than obsessing over the back foot. However it seems highly probable that father instructors who have students who don’t drag, will encourage them to alter their mechanics so they do, by focusing on the foot. How else can they determine where to stand on the rubber without a good drag line?
Well…. as I’m sure you’re aware, ones position on the rubber according to the “old school” had more to do with movement and location than an opinion regarding what is mechanically efficient. I don’t know what Kevin Brown’s dragline looked like but suppose the new drag rules dictated that he should move to the other side of the rubber? What to do if there is a conflict between what ones “stuff” does from one location, and where one is supposed to stand on the rubber for greater efficiency?
More problems created than solved dragging everyone down this road? Much ado…much ado… and I’m most definitely done.
Thanks again for all your responses.
Yardbird,
Having witnessed several hostile takeovers by fanatics,
one approaches with caution. You appear to belong to a different tribe…my apologies if I appeared to close the gates. You gave us a few hints that you may have a preference regarding whether to drag or not…if you’ve anymore to add please do.
My reason for persisting with the “foot in contact with the ground at release” question comes from a reliable source that related this was the latest instruction in drag. Thought you might be able to confirm this one way or the other. Let’s hope it’s not so, as it’s a bit absurd to think that so many of the best where mechanically inept.
quote:You can read what you like into that statement, but in my interpretation, "about the same time" is not at all the same as saying "at exactly the same moment". To me, this statement allows for a range of possibilities, including guys who do release the ball just before their post foot pops up to guys that you have shown, who release the ball from .03 to .06 sec (1 to 2 vid frames) after the post foot pops up into the air.
A closer look at some of my first clips reveal that the back foot has actually left the ground several frames before release at 30 fps. This may appear to be splitting hairs, but I would think someone serious about the biomechanics of throwing and it’s sequencing would think it’s significant. Obviously when the foot is exiting the ground this early, there is going to be little or no dragline.
In the case of Martinez, young Ryan, Gibson, Schilling, and I suspect many others; the foot leaves the ground shortly after high cocked and is definitely airborne by the time of external rotation. Tap down, if it occurs, is after release. Whether this creates a problem determining where the airborne foot is at release, so you can in turn, determine where to stand on the rubber I wouldn’t know.
Given your interest in low release point pitchers, I accessed my own data bank
Is it possible that sidearm pitchers might be slightly more inclined to get their foot in the air because of the greater emphasis on rotation in the horizontal plane? Many other factors involved of course.
quote:Still: If a young guy with no drag-line is struggling and it looks like lack of stability and balance are clear problems in his delivery, well...I wouldn't hesitate to suggest adjustments to his posture that will happen to produce a drag-line (note: None of this includes any instruction to "drag your foot"...the drag-line is a result of stable posture, not the other way around...that really would be the tail wagging the dog, and maybe that's part of the misunderstanding between us?).
This would certainly be a better approach than obsessing over the back foot. However it seems highly probable that father instructors who have students who don’t drag, will encourage them to alter their mechanics so they do, by focusing on the foot. How else can they determine where to stand on the rubber without a good drag line?
Well…. as I’m sure you’re aware, ones position on the rubber according to the “old school” had more to do with movement and location than an opinion regarding what is mechanically efficient. I don’t know what Kevin Brown’s dragline looked like but suppose the new drag rules dictated that he should move to the other side of the rubber? What to do if there is a conflict between what ones “stuff” does from one location, and where one is supposed to stand on the rubber for greater efficiency?
More problems created than solved dragging everyone down this road? Much ado…much ado… and I’m most definitely done.
Yardbird,
Having witnessed several hostile takeovers by fanatics,
TG2- Great stuff! There is NO right way. It's funny- Five years ago Tom H would say nothing happens until foot plant and that most of the lower body is a "non-teach". Don't get me wrong, I like Tom and think he's knowledgeable. That said, he has evolved himself.
Your pitching illustration is very similar to what hitters actually do. Most professional hitters have very little (if any) weight on their back foot at point of contact. Watch enough tape and see what the great ones actually do.
Your pitching illustration is very similar to what hitters actually do. Most professional hitters have very little (if any) weight on their back foot at point of contact. Watch enough tape and see what the great ones actually do.
Thanks for these posts. This filled in many years of something that didn't make sense, and now does. TG2, would love for you to give my kid a lesson.
My older kid threw mid-90s and I was always concerned about his lack of "connectivity."
The important part of all the clips isn't the connectivity or toe drag, but the angle of the front and back legs through the delivery. The angle of the back leg is about 45 degrees, more than the angle of the front leg. The stride is downhill with the mound surface elevated higher on the backside foot. The angle has to be greater to AVOID contact with the dirt. When the release then subsequent follow through happens, the foot taps because the follow through is down and over the front side. These pitchers are throwing through and not around their bodies. Those pitchers are also striding a typical length.
Guys like Lincecum and Oswalt have long stride lengths. The drag line appears to be more a function of how far they stride out. Once they are at plant, the mechanics look similar. It appears they are "cheating" the distance to the plate and using the drag line to get there.
Most MLB pitchers release at about 90% of body length. Lincecum is over 110%. The drag line would have to take place to do that. His is fairly diagonal. A normal percentage of stride length and a drag line doesn't appear to be supported from the posts. The drag line posts are long stride lengths. They appear to support those.
Thanks TG2, great posts.
My older kid threw mid-90s and I was always concerned about his lack of "connectivity."
The important part of all the clips isn't the connectivity or toe drag, but the angle of the front and back legs through the delivery. The angle of the back leg is about 45 degrees, more than the angle of the front leg. The stride is downhill with the mound surface elevated higher on the backside foot. The angle has to be greater to AVOID contact with the dirt. When the release then subsequent follow through happens, the foot taps because the follow through is down and over the front side. These pitchers are throwing through and not around their bodies. Those pitchers are also striding a typical length.
Guys like Lincecum and Oswalt have long stride lengths. The drag line appears to be more a function of how far they stride out. Once they are at plant, the mechanics look similar. It appears they are "cheating" the distance to the plate and using the drag line to get there.
Most MLB pitchers release at about 90% of body length. Lincecum is over 110%. The drag line would have to take place to do that. His is fairly diagonal. A normal percentage of stride length and a drag line doesn't appear to be supported from the posts. The drag line posts are long stride lengths. They appear to support those.
Thanks TG2, great posts.
quote:you might be able to confirm this one way or the other.
---No, I'm not in any position to either confirm or deny what someone else may have said about this topic unless I heard it personally or read their words in print. What House has said in print about it makes sense to me and, IMO, is not in conflict with the nature of your observations.
Your observations go a lot further toward illustrating successful pitchers from the minority examples, but within the larger group of pitchers who do have a drag-line I think House's written ideas accomodate a decent range of individual differences and still manage to drill down to some interesting teaching points.
Your example of Kevin Brown is an interesting one at many levels: To say the least, he had a reputation of being difficult to work with...the biggest challenege coaches have, aside from understanding who needs help and who should be left alone, is figuring out an approach to working effectively with all of the different personalities under their care.
I agree with the old-school basis for choosing a spot on the rubber to optimize an individual pitcher's command of location; in my limited experience, I've seen evidence that the end-point of a pitcher's drag-line, because it is reproducible for those guys who have one and indicates direction of momentum late in the delivery, can shorten the trail to finding that optimum starting position on the rubber.
Again, to the best of my understanding a drag-line (or no drag-line) is a result of posture, not a cause of it, and I can see how a misunderstanding of that might lead to some very poor coaching: "Drag your foot, son, it's the only way".
Actually, (and I wish I had the references in front of me) there has been some pretty poor coaching in the other direction as well, "Don't drag your foot, son, it'll just slow you down". I'm pretty sure there have been some bizarre drills, maybe involving throwing with the post-foot up on a chair, to train pitchers to get that foot off the ground asap.
The Tuff Toe company makes a fairish amount of money selling cleat protection to the drag-line crowd, maybe there's a market niche for some interprising entrepeneur out there to sell Cleat Lifter--The Only Helium-Filled Post-Foot Cleat That Money Can Buy.
good point on the pitching toe for cleats.
This argument is silly. Ranks right up there with "to towel drill or not" "to long toss or not" and many other arguments. The issue is the leverage that the post leg provides while unloading the upper body.
As a parent who has replaced many pair of shoes before their time until I started spraying the left toe with an acrylic paint, I prefer the toe drag. It provides a solid base and helps control the body. Long strides are also a plus for control and arm health..
As a parent who has replaced many pair of shoes before their time until I started spraying the left toe with an acrylic paint, I prefer the toe drag. It provides a solid base and helps control the body. Long strides are also a plus for control and arm health..
Of all the threads I've seen on this board. I cannot figure out how this discussion is "silly." One of the best threads that has been on here in a long time.
Your kidding. I can find a clip that will prove almost anything you want.
Here are clips of almost every pro pitcher. Scroll to the bottom and take your pick.
http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/david_kopp.htm
Here are clips of almost every pro pitcher. Scroll to the bottom and take your pick.
http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/david_kopp.htm
Bobblehead- Not trying to be confrontational, but you are contradicting yourself. In one post you say that you think toe drag is the right way to go, and then you post the clip of DK who has his foot airborne upon release.
I think this thread is great, and really enjoy the analysis of all the pitchers' mechanics (past and present).
I think this thread is great, and really enjoy the analysis of all the pitchers' mechanics (past and present).
My son's bull pen session yesterday left me to ponder the question.
If a pitcher, pitches in the woods, does he leave a drag line?
If a pitcher, pitches in the woods, does he leave a drag line?
DK has a huge toe drag. It leaves the rubber and then drags. As usual people look at something and see it differently. That is what is so silly about these arguments.
Rivera , the clip beside DK shows it very clearly. Their strides are long and stride foots are planted long before ball release.
I also said I like toe drag and long stride but you can find some who don't do that.
Scroll down and look at the clips. Also note the difference when they throw bull pens to loosen their arms. They often lift off with no toe drag. When they ramp it they use toe drag to get max torque.
Rivera , the clip beside DK shows it very clearly. Their strides are long and stride foots are planted long before ball release.
I also said I like toe drag and long stride but you can find some who don't do that.
Scroll down and look at the clips. Also note the difference when they throw bull pens to loosen their arms. They often lift off with no toe drag. When they ramp it they use toe drag to get max torque.
I agree that everyone has a different opinion, but isn't that the entire purpose of a message board? I would say that's the opposite of silly...
Rivera does seem to have a discernable toe drag in the clip. I tend to shy away from analyzing bullpen clips (especially those that were made for instructional videos like Mo's) because they generally aren't at full speed.
I am not voicing an opinion either way, as some do have a toe drag and some don't. If you think a toe drag is good, then that is your opinion and I'm 100% behind you and your reasoning. If you think a toe drag is bad, then I am also 100% behind you and your reasoning. As long as in each scenario, you provide justifiable reasoning as to why each is good/bad and it makes sense.
However, DK does not have a toe drag. His foot clearly comes off the ground at release, and then touches down afterwards, very similarly to the clips of Pedro, Gibson, Ryan and Joba that were previously posted.
Rivera does seem to have a discernable toe drag in the clip. I tend to shy away from analyzing bullpen clips (especially those that were made for instructional videos like Mo's) because they generally aren't at full speed.
I am not voicing an opinion either way, as some do have a toe drag and some don't. If you think a toe drag is good, then that is your opinion and I'm 100% behind you and your reasoning. If you think a toe drag is bad, then I am also 100% behind you and your reasoning. As long as in each scenario, you provide justifiable reasoning as to why each is good/bad and it makes sense.
However, DK does not have a toe drag. His foot clearly comes off the ground at release, and then touches down afterwards, very similarly to the clips of Pedro, Gibson, Ryan and Joba that were previously posted.
