Many pitchers have their back foot drag, many do not.
Is it a bad thing, a good thing, or does it depend on the mechanics the pitcher is most comfortable with?
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quote:Originally posted by BOF:
All Hail to the Drag Queen.
Nice First post. Welcome.
quote:One of the most admired SAD members was the “side arming” Dennis Eckersley. Not only did his foot come waaaay off the ground, never to return, his furry appearance, unusual release point, and ability to “paint”, made him a hero to those who were slightly different or found it impossible to drag. With perhaps the greatest painter in history firmly on their side, it now seemed ridiculous to argue that throwing drag-less somehow led to control problems. Furthermore, as with many of the drag-less, it became next to impossible to mark where his drag-line ended as it hardly ever started!
quote:But, I also do not think that "exceptions" should necessarily be used as teaching models, nor do "exceptions" completely negate the use of a valuable teaching concept that is based on what a majority of elite players may share in common...if you don't get that, then baseball must seem completely random to you.
quote:Unfortunately Larson must have forgotten this technique faster than he learned it, as he was never able to come close to repeating this kind of success?
quote:”I’d prefer the kingdom not be trampled to death by a Marshallite invasion”
quote:“so perhaps we could divert the barbarian hoards toward a new separate post”
quote:”You have interest in using run up techniques for baseball pitchers. My query”
quote:“I’ve often wondered what would happen if javelin throwers decided to adopt a more rotational technique?”
quote:“Perhaps I’ll start a new post on the topic.”
quote:You can read what you like into that statement, but in my interpretation, "about the same time" is not at all the same as saying "at exactly the same moment". To me, this statement allows for a range of possibilities, including guys who do release the ball just before their post foot pops up to guys that you have shown, who release the ball from .03 to .06 sec (1 to 2 vid frames) after the post foot pops up into the air.
quote:Still: If a young guy with no drag-line is struggling and it looks like lack of stability and balance are clear problems in his delivery, well...I wouldn't hesitate to suggest adjustments to his posture that will happen to produce a drag-line (note: None of this includes any instruction to "drag your foot"...the drag-line is a result of stable posture, not the other way around...that really would be the tail wagging the dog, and maybe that's part of the misunderstanding between us?).
quote:you might be able to confirm this one way or the other.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
DK has a huge toe drag. It leaves the rubber and then drags. As usual people look at something and see it differently. That is what is so silly about these arguments.
Rivera , the clip beside DK shows it very clearly. Their strides are long and stride foots are planted long before ball release.
I also said I like toe drag and long stride but you can find some who don't do that.
Scroll down and look at the clips. Also note the difference when they throw bull pens to loosen their arms. They often lift off with no toe drag. When they ramp it they use toe drag to get max torque.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
d8 if it were me I would not teach toe drag specifically as it is a naturally occurring even when the mechanics are solid. I would teach what Steve Ellis teaches. Keep that back foot on the rubber as long as possible and if it leaves the rubber keep it low. Teach a big stride with foot plant like DK before starting to drive forward with the upper body. The post foot will naturally pull forward and lift after release of the ball to follow through in the deceleration phase of the pitch. Not only do you want the kids to throw hard but you want them to be durable.
quote:Most professional hitters have very little (if any) weight on their back foot at point of contact.
quote:Actually, (and I wish I had the references in front of me) there has been some pretty poor coaching in the other direction as well, "Don't drag your foot, son, it'll just slow you down". I'm pretty sure there have been some bizarre drills, maybe involving throwing with the post-foot up on a chair, to train pitchers to get that foot off the ground asap.
quote:Drill #1 - Up & Out Foot Drill Objective - To help pitchers perfect the proper back leg action. The purpose of this drill is to stop foot drag and prevent over striding.
Equipment Needed - A brick, block or wood or other suitable object. The object will be placed at a location just in front of the pivot foot of the pitcher. The pitcher will be working out of the stretch. The pitcher should be reminded to roll and pick his back foot up so that it clears the object.
Procedure - The pitcher throws using his normal motion and delivery. If the pitcher fails to clear the object, then his back foot is "dragging" or he is over striding. Young pitchers should be coached to step out of the "hole" and up and over the block.
quote:“the back foot must not drag – it must leave the rubber immediately. Any time the back foot drags, it kills a lot of the forward momentum that has been built up, diminishing velocity.”
quote:It doesn't matter what shape the dragline is, straight line, arc, zig-zag, etc....they're all fine. What does matter is that the dragline should end on a line middle-of-rubber to middle-of-homeplate.
quote:Measuring the progression of the posting foot from the rubber in distance and direction will tell you how sound a pitcher's mechanics are. Short or crooked draglines indicate bad posture, inappropriate weight shift, and/or premature rotation. The longer the back foot stays on the ground and the straighter his drag foot line, the better his mechanics.
quote:what matters is where the post foot leaves the ground for the last time. That is the end of the dragline and it should be on a line middle-rubber to middle-HP.
quote:Originally posted by laflippin:
More good stuff, TG2....I didn't really think you were done chewing on this subject.
You are definitely correct to suggest that House's ideas evolve. Among many baseball people, evolution is simply taken as a sign of weakness and fallibility.
Scientists, and some baseball people, view the honest evolution of ideas as an inevitable consequence of ongoing study. When you decide that something is not worth studying anymore, for whatever reason, there can really be no further evolution of your thought in that area....for better or worse, that's just a fact.
Now, the "misplaced" end-points shown for some outstanding players (as though I, or somebody, ought to be embarrassed to even think of changing them...)...well, speaking personally, I wouldn't presume to change them.
Exceptions do sometimes teach us the most--I agree with that. What exceptions teach me is this: If someone with a drag-line that finishes way off of middle/middle is not having any problems with command of the zone...I would try not to be foolish enough to "correct" that guy.
If that guy (with a dragline....) is having problems with east-west command of the strike zone, and if I were his coach, one of the things I would do is start looking for his "best" position on the rubber. And....yes...I would start by adjusting him so that the end of his dragline finished middle/middle to see if that helps him. Another thing I would do, unrelated to this conversation, is look for signs of inordinate east-west head movement in his approach to release point.
What if neither of those things helped? Well....maybe there are other experiments to try...I don't like to give up.
TG2, exceptions should hopefully not teach us to ridicule experimentation and study, as though no phenomena with exceptions could possibly be further understood. In exchange, researchers should not be too quick to etch their theories in stone at the first sign of a pattern or unifying theme.
All this philosophy for some lines in the dirt! Gotta love it!
quote:quote:
It doesn't matter what shape the dragline is, straight line, arc, zig-zag, etc....they're all fine. What does matter is that the dragline should end on a line middle-of-rubber to middle-of-homeplate.
Yet elsewhere we read by the same theorist:
quote:
Measuring the progression of the posting foot from the rubber in distance and direction will tell you how sound a pitcher's mechanics are. Short or crooked draglines indicate bad posture, inappropriate weight shift, and/or premature rotation. The longer the back foot stays on the ground and the straighter his drag foot line, the better his mechanics.
http://www.pitchingperfect.com/files/Glass_Wall.htm
So…. is drag theory still evolving, has the research been completed, or are we joining the chase for another wild one of these?
quote:nc, I know you did, and it's always interesting to me to gauge how different baseball people respond to the idea of coaches whose teaching/research continues to evolve. Some appear to think that continued study and evolving ideas are a sign of integrity, while some see it just the opposite.
quote:Originally posted by TG2:
lunatic Dads babbling on the Internet.
quote:Real science is a slow methodical process where new truths are declared only with great caution. Very little is accepted as fact within a scientific community without being subject to the scrutiny of the leaders in the field, peer reviews, approval for publication, etc. It’s a long process, not without problems, but when it works, the fluff gets weeded out.
quote:
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant---
Success in Cirrcuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightening to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind---
Emily Dickinson
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:
The rolling of the back foot has to occur so the back side can fire through.....
Drag line importance or lack of?
I will post a clip of a young CC Sabathia of how Elvis's little move that Forest Gump taught him is important in pitching.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
the body should continually be moving forward, and the premature roll highlighted above is an example of that not happening.
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:
I have brought about this thread from the past because I recently made an updated video about this that I placed on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtUDQqM3PNs
The last reply was a year and a half ago and still the topic of importance or non importance lingers.
I hope this brings about a simplistic thought about the drag line.
Leonardo Da Vinci once said that "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." I wasn't there when he said it, but I understand exactly what he meant by it. Why can't we look at things in a simple matter? Why is simplicity so tough? You don't buy simple stuff because it doesnt cost anything. Things have to be complex. With complexity there is challenge. We pay big bucks for complexity. Simplicity doesn't sell. If it is simple, we feel like meatheads. Why can't we look at things and go "I understand, move forward."
Example: Diet books and diet pills make tons and tons of money. Why? Because hearing that you need to exercise more than you eat is too simple of a concept. Burn more calories by getting off your tail than take in and you will not become obese? How much for that info?
Oh well, I will get off my soap box. Hope the video brings about simplicity and interaction pertaining to the actions of the back foot and the great inforamtion it can bring about by watching the path it takes, either on the ground or in the air.
In air or on ground is irrelevant because it occurs after stride foot plant. If it occurs before stride foot plant, it is the result of an enormous amount of drive and desire for greater stride length.
quote:“Seek simplicity…and distrust it” Alfred North Whitehead
quote:“It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious” Alfred North Whitehead
quote:Originally posted by TG2:quote:“Seek simplicity…and distrust it” Alfred North Whitehead
In what direction is Lincecum’s Drag line going?
Koufax?
quote:“It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious” Alfred North Whitehead
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:quote:Originally posted by TG2:quote:“Seek simplicity…and distrust it” Alfred North Whitehead
In what direction is Lincecum’s Drag line going?
Koufax?
quote:“It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious” Alfred North Whitehead
TG2,
Nice.
How long have you been doing this coaching thing?
That is really nice.
I commend you..
quote:,“There are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil.” Whitehead
quote:“A clash of doctrines is not a disaster—it is an opportunity” Whitehead
quote:Originally posted by TG2:
And now if I understand your presentation correctly you are saying that a back foot which immediately goes out to the throwing arm side indicates poor use of the hips and lower body. Yet that is exactly what is going on with Lincecum and Koufax, who in my opinion get much more out of their lower bodies than John Smoltz. Incidentally, in the case of Lincecum, his foot going to the right is not entirely explained by his dominant “ferris wheel” delivery.
quote:.....However I don’t see this reaction as a key indicator which definitively determines whether a pitcher has made good use of his hips….again look at Koufax and Lincecum.
quote:“A clash of doctrines is not a disaster—it is an opportunity” Whitehead
quote:Originally posted by bigheat27-42:
I would not consider a back foot drag good or bad in the sense that it depends on what the pitcher is like. If he has a little less flexability, it may actually help with hip seperation, thus creating more torque and more velocity. on the other hand, if he is flexable enough to not need it and still get the same hip seperation, then it would be unneeded. It really depends on the type of pitcher because i have seen many successful with drag and still some who do without it. many great points by the way i just thought i would put in my 2 cents
quote:Originally posted by tradosaurus:
Sounds like "to drag" or "not to drag" is irrevelant but what is important are all the other important mechanics before the pitch is released.
4 pages of overanalyzing something no aspiring pitcher should worry about.