Balance Point

I personally don't believe in the balance point. Take a look at this clip of Randy Johnson and tell me if he ever reaches a point in his delivery where he could pause in a balanced position. By the time his knee reaches its highest point, his hips are already moving toward home plate.

Also pay attention to how his head and shoulders stay slightly behind his front hip up to about the point his front foot plants. If the head and shoulders get out ahead of the front hip, the pitcher will usually fall forward. Maybe that is your issue?

Right, any hesitation in the motion takes away from potential velocity. So, just work on moving explosively leading with your front hip with your nose over your bellybutton. A 100%+ stride is ideal.

Yes I agree with the above....DON'T STOP. Keep momentum going. That's what all the best do. Keeping the head under control at release and beyond is another issue. Total body stability is starts with the right strength and conditioning. I like doing mirror work for feedback. Many times pitchers need to see themselves as they are throwing.
www.fletchspen.net

The balance point is a teaching tool. When a great pitching coach breaks mechanics down he uses balance point as a part of the overall motion. This doesn't mean every pitcher will stop/hesitate for very long. You have to come to a stop at set or you balk not at balance. This would mean stopping twice.
Set, stop,step back rock forward lift and then balance but no stop. May be a slight hesitation.

A pitcher must get his foot up and down in .85 to 1.0 seconds for best efficiency in the delivery. Most flaws in pitching mechanics occur between that time that the foot leaves the ground up until foot strike.

Balance is key throughout the delivery, but to focus on the 'balance point' at the expense of a repeatable, fluid delivery will inevitable lead to (more) mechanical flaws.

Some call that rushing.
Personally I like a controlled lift and slide. Your body is way out front of your arm. Your motion looks effortless and controlled.

You might wanna check this out: http://www.pitching.com/blog/154/the-balance-position-i...hing-kills-velocity/

That guy is an idiot. Another sales pitch designed to suck in the ignorant. Everyone has an angle to set them apart. The secret revealed. What a joke. These guys make you ill.
Kinda like guys pushing foreclosures. Send them some money and they will reveal the secret. Foreclosures are the most over priced poor condition properties on the market. 99% sell for way over market. I am sure these guys make millions ******* people in.

I believe in balance point. No one, I hope, is suggesting you come to a point where everything stops and you're in perfect harmony with the world. But to me balance point means that the body is undercontrol, not falling off in any direction (even forward). To me that balance lasts through out the pitching motion.

Can you be a good pitcher without balance, sure, but most have it.

Obviously you need balance throughout the whole pitching motion, but any hesitation/slowing down takes away from potential velocity.

So then, one must move as fast as possible (while still maintaining good mechanics), which builds up more kinetic energy (movement energy) that converts to more elastic energy upon landing. That is velocity

The "balance" part is important, its the "point" part that is not. Repeatability and increased tempo through out the delivery is much more important and not taught enough.

Deemax gets it

Hallelujah

Tempo and rythym are extremely important. If you pause in the balance position you lose both.

O.K I will go against the grain here. I see nothing wrong with the balanced position and work with my players often to reach that point. I feel that most pitching mistakes are made by players that do not have a consistent and repeatable motion. Pitchers typically do not fall forward when they are pitching out of the stretch as soon as they lift their leg. We try to limit our forward movement until our front leg starts down. I believe pitching is all about rhythm and timing. Balancing until a proper timing is achieved does not hurt velocity and provides consistency in the wind-up. Balancing and stopping are two different things in my opinion. Even though you are not moving forward until a certain point in the motion you are lifting the leg and moving the arm. I do agree that there should not be a point at which the entire body is completely stopped. Pausing forward momentum and cessation of movement are two different things in my mind at least.

hsballcoach

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We try to limit our forward movement until our front leg starts down.

Consider not waiting for the leg to come down before you go forward, but focus on the hip going forward first and closed.


hsballcoach

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I believe pitching is all about rhythm and timing.

For years coaches taught me to get to my balance point, and I even taught it myself as a rookie coach. The more I reasearched the games greats the more I realized pitching was not being taught properly. As for your above quote "pitching is all about rhythm and timing"......He11 yeah it is!

IMO the balance point while pitching is very similar to the transition from the backswing to the downswing in golf. It should be almost impossible to see, just a split second where the player gathers himself in the proper position. I believe the exaggerated way it is taught helps a player to become familiar with this position. The time in the pitching motion this occurs is prior to any forward motion to the plate. Reaching this point in no way breaks momentum or rhythm. By consistently "starting" from this point rhythm is developed.

Yankeelvr

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The time in the pitching motion this occurs is prior to any forward motion to the plate. Reaching this point in no way breaks momentum or rhythm.By consistently "starting" from this point rhythm is developed.

The delivery does not start form "this point." It starts well before then... The "balance point" dosent develope rhythm as you state, but rather repeatabilty and tempo create this rhythm and timing.

I look at the balance point as the point where the hands had better have started to break.

I agree with the tempo, and rythym and timing. And everyones is a little different. For me, once we take our drop step, I teach my guys to create a rythm, and feel it. Build to a strong gathering point ( i refer to a power position) at the height of the balance point and then send the front hip or pocket to the target with lots and lots of front glove side strength or torque down the hill... Go right on through the balnce point to the power point untill you get to the violent part of the deal... Controlled rythym .

sparky

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I look at the balance point as the point where the hands had better have started to break.

I agree with the tempo, and rythym and timing. And everyones is a little different. For me, once we take our drop step, I teach my guys to create a rythm, and feel it. Build to a strong gathering point ( i refer to a power position) at the height of the balance point and then send the front hip or pocket to the target with lots and lots of front glove side strength or torque down the hill... Go right on through the balnce point to the power point untill you get to the violent part of the deal... Controlled rythym .

IMO your right.......

I think it is important to understand that balance is dynamic and controlled. I think the word "point" is what throws people off. The purpose of balance is to control movements so mechanics are consistent and repeatable and to prevent rushing to the plate and flying open. I have witnessed many players at all levels that tend to start to the plate too early and have little consistency in their delivery. As I stated before, we limit forward movement until the front knee reaches its pinnacle and then it comes down and we take our hip and shoulder to the plate. Some drift toward the plate throughout the leg lift and are very effective at this, but this is very difficult to do while being consistent throughout a game. These too are things learned not as a rookie coach but from years of study and trial and error and experience.

If I have learned nothing else about baseball, I know that there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Anyone who says that there is only one way, and that it is the best way for everybody, is wrong.

Billy Wagner throws it a little and it looks to me like he acheives a balance point (gathering point?) just before throwing it 101. Maybe if he was as tall as Randy Johnson, he would use Randy's motion, but there aren't that many Randy Johnson's out there.

Wagner throwing 101 mph

Try this. Stand in good balance with your feet at shoulders width, and lift your left leg. OK, now get up off the floor.

If you want to lift a leg without falling down, you'll need to create some balance to the other leg. Your weight will have to go back to the back leg.

The best time to start moving your weight to the front depends on the individual's body and throwing mechanics.

Many (I did not say all) successful power pitchers come to a balance point.

I hope no one got hurt reading this post.

Mike F

Mike F,

Didnt get hurt but my two dogs are looking at me like I need a deucedoc...

And when I hit the floor, I always bounce up!

And I am not too sure where my balance point is now, there seems to be a gravitational force centering it on me.....Much like a WEEBLE

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Yankeelvr

quote:

The time in the pitching motion this occurs is prior to any forward motion to the plate. Reaching this point in no way breaks momentum or rhythm.By consistently "starting" from this point rhythm is developed.

The delivery does not start form "this point." It starts well before then... The "balance point" dosent develope rhythm as you state, but rather repeatabilty and tempo create this rhythm and timing.

Aren't repeatability and "starting form the same point" first cousins ? If I am to sum up your advice, a pitcher should begin with his drop step as fast as possible and just blaze thru the rest of his delivery in order to throw @ max velo ? Some of the poorest excuses for a throw you will see on a ballfield occur when players are moving "as fast as possible". The pitching motion is more about efficient transfer of force resulting in arm speed rather than the speed of all the moving parts as I believe you are suggesting. Please explain the use of the words rhythm, tempo, and timing all in a row. Or was this an attempt to be "repeatable"

yanklvr

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Aren't repeatability and "starting form the same point" first cousins ?

No.

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If I am to sum up your advice, a pitcher should begin with his drop step as fast as possible and just blaze thru the rest of his delivery in order to throw @ max velo ?

No. Truely a pathetic attempt at "summing up my advice."

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Please explain the use of the words rhythm, tempo, and timing all in a row. Or was this an attempt to be "repeatable"

IMO Rhythm is the flow of the game dictated by the pitcher (time between pitches/signs/looks/etc)...Tempo relates to the rate at which the delivery should continue to excelerate, and timing is when the pitcher steps back, gets the ball out of his glove, and releases it. But thats just me, what do you think? Hopefully this wasnt to repetitive for you, because I would hate for you to inaccuratly "sum up my advice" again...

Perfect example of what "no balance point" is, is this right here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A49JJ3ImuXE

and for a more professional perspective

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8oHYRS6hA

XFactor,

Good clips!

I'm thinking that young boy will fall off the back of the first mound he pitches from.

As great as Koufax was, how would we describe his mechanics? Good/bad?

Regarding balance point...

IMO - There is more than one balance point. The one talked about here does exist in most every pitcher. It's the amount of time spent at that position that can be much different from one pitcher to the next. I believe it needs to be there and it does not need to stop at all. In any delivery, there will be spots (stop action) that we would all say the pitcher is well balanced.

To me... The balance point is something that is one part of the overall delivery that every pitcher should get to, but continue through it and not stop there. Therefore I can see the benefit of finding it and practicing it, but not thinking about it or using it in actual pitching delivery.

BTW, most Japanese pitchers are very interesting to watch regarding this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
IMO Rhythm is the flow of the game dictated by the pitcher (time between pitches/signs/looks/etc)...Tempo relates to the rate at which the delivery should continue to excelerate, and timing is when the pitcher steps back, gets the ball out of his glove, and releases it. But thats just me, what do you think? Hopefully this wasnt to repetitive for you, because I would hate for you to inaccuratly "sum up my advice" again...

Interesting definitions, not quite sure how they relate to your prior post. Sorry if I didn't sum up you posts regarding moving fast to create velocity, I must have misunderstood. May even have confused you with other posters.
IMO, rhythm and tempo are interchangeable. Timing re: a pitching motion's most critical element would be getting the hand @ its highest point at footstrike. I do understand timing plays a role in the entire delivery as well. Each pitcher must find his own rhythm (tempo) that will allow all the timing elements in the delivery to come together. For some it seems helpful to have different points of reference to work from, one being the balance point. Some in fact will hold this position much longer than others in a game situation (seems like almost all Japanese pitchers really hold a long time) If the DPHS is still tuned in one drill we use is simply balance while watching TV, use proper posture, stand tall, push hips back, slight flex in support leg, hands @ waist, bring oppo leg up so thigh is parallel to ground. Close eyes once this becomes easy to hold. Do this drill using both legs as the support leg as well. Balance can be improved thru practice, just like anything else.

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For years coaches taught me to get to my balance point, and I even taught it myself as a rookie coach. The more I reasearched the games greats the more I realized pitching was not being taught properly.

IMO that for those of us who were taught by pitching gurus the past fifteen years, the quoted statement sums it up pretty well.

The "balance point" in my area was taught as a posture to achieve...hand up, ball facing 2B...front elbow up out in front...stride knee up, foot under knee, and balanced on the posting foot, body not moving. He11 no!

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
The "balance point" in my area was taught as a posture to achieve...hand up, ball facing 2B...front elbow up out in front...stride knee up, foot under knee, and balanced on the posting foot, body not moving. He11 no!

cap_n,

I'm not sure whether you agree with the need for a balance point or not, but I agree that what you describe is just wrong...I picture the the old movie Karate Kid Pelican move.





By the way, the pitcher in your avatar comes to a nice balance point.

Mike F

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By the way, the pitcher in your avatar comes to a nice balance point.

If you're using my definition of a balance point, then no, your analysis of my avatar is incorrect.....sorry.

Cap'n the position you descrbe sounds like it is about halfway between the "balance point" and the "power position" as described by many including, for an easy reference, Habyan in Ripken's lit. It isn't possible to even discuss the motion unless we can all agree on the terminology. For further clarification, a "point" is just that, a specific point in time that doesn't have anything to do with a pause necessarily, though it may.

The balance point is at the top of your leg lift no matter what country you are from. Your back leg is on the rubber and your lift leg is at the top of the lift before coming down and forward. Some ptchers slow down before going into the power position but others rush through it.
Yank is correct. It is taught by MLB personel as an important part of the delivery when the motion is broken down to teach proper mechanics.

bobbleheaddoll

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The balance point is at the top of your leg lift no matter what country you are from.

Everyone who throws a pitch reaches the "top of your leg lift" in thier delivery. Does something that will happen need to be emphasized or taught?

A lot of people teach a pause, or a slow down into balance point, before continuing on.

But as you can see with Nolan Ryan and Koufax, they move explosively leading with their front hip even while their leg is up. You can especially see it in the video of Koufax.

You don't want to be slow when you pitch. Pitching isn't slow.

The faster you move and with more momentum (good mechanics considered) your velocity will be that much better.

quote:

Everyone who throws a pitch reaches the "top of your leg lift" in thier delivery. Does something that will happen need to be emphasized or taught?

Yes !

You learn each step and then put it together into one fluid motion. Some pitchers like to load up by a slight pause and then explode. Kinda like Karate.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:


Everyone who throws a pitch reaches the "top of your leg lift" in thier delivery. Does something that will happen need to be emphasized or taught?

Do you agree a loss of balance at this point would have an adverse effect on the result ?

........loss of body CONTROL would be adverse. Stopping at the "balance point" a detriment to velocity.
Rollerman

yanklvr

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Do you agree a loss of balance at this point would have an adverse effect on the result ?

A lose of balance in anything sport related has "adverse effects as thier result."

I wrote earlier in this thread that "balance" is important, its the "point" thats not... I stand by that. IMO balance in the delivery is not defined at a point, rather by and through the entire motion.

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Anyone have any drills or anything on how to imporve balance. I always seem to be falling towards the plate. Im thinking that if i start wiht more weight on my back foot this could help with me staying back and keeping over my balance point. any suggestions would be helpful.

So the kid asks for some drills to improve balance and you guys get into a debate over who knows more about balance points?

The truth is the body does not stop and reach a dead stop balance point. The balance point that this young man is referring to is the point at which the front leg/hip gets to it’s maximum height and takes an ever so slight (milliseconds) pause before going forward and getting released in the pitchers move forward.

The balance points are great teaching tools like someone said. All teams should incorporate balance drills into their throwing programs.

Some EASY balance drills:

1) Stand in front of a mirror- Assume the stretch position, set your hands like you are holding a runner on, lift you front leg to 90 deg. (it should be parallel to the ground), point your toe to the ground. Your ankle should be directly under your knee not curled under your rear.
HOLD THIS BALANCE POINT FOR 30 SEC.
Be sure you have good posture on the top half and keep your arms and hands still but ready.
DO THIS 5x each session DO 3 sessions a day

2) Repeat the same drill and add in the breaking of the hands and getting the arms into a good throwing position. Arms should break together and shoulders should lift the arms to parallel to the ground. Work on being strong with your shoulders at this balance point.
HOLD THIS BALANCE POINT FOR 30 SEC.
Be sure that you can hold your balance on the bottom half when you break your hands on the top half. Lots of pitchers get in trouble balancing their bodies while they get the ball into a good throwing position.

3) Go outside with a buddy. Do #1 for 5 sec. #2 for 5 sec. then take your front hip/foot and your front elbow to your buddy and throw. Make sure you balance the finish just as much as you balanced the start. Do 10-15 from 25’ and back up 10-15’ every 10-15 throws until your reach your max.

If you are looking for other drills PM me and I will help you out. You will never get better at balance unless you work on balancing your body in spots that relate to pitching. I tell my pitchers all the time when we do balance drills to death, "If you can't balance your body now in the gym with perfect footing how do you expect to balance your body when you are on pitch 82 in the 90 degree heat and there is a 6" hole in the mound and in your landing area?"
Work on balance when you are warming up before every game. Take 5-7 throws from each distance you move back and work on balancing your body slowly from each spot before you get to your actual throwing speed. I have found in HS pitchers that slowing the body down a little will help teach you how to speed it up in the right parts and be balanced enough to repeat it 60-80 times a start or 10-15 times a relief.

Keep working hard,
Justin Stringer
Do It Right Baseball
Lane Tech Baseball
www.doitrightbaseball.com
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