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15 replies

Balk or not

coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Tonight I saw something that I have never seen before and just on seeing it I'm saying it's a balk but after thinking about it I don't know what to think.

Runners on base and the pitcher brings his hands together and comes set. He looks at the runner on second and legally steps off behind the rubber. As soon as his foot hits behind the rubber he brings it back to re-engage the rubber but during this whole thing his hands never moved one inch. He never raised / lowered them nor did he separate them. They stayed together at his chest the whole time. After he reengaged the rubber he pitched the ball.

So very quickly he legally came set, disengaged the rubber, without moving his hands reengaged the rubber and pitched the ball.

Neither ump made a call. They let it happen without saying a word. So is there anything wrong with what he did?

Thanks guys.

Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude. Thomas Jefferson

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FM Former Member
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.

Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball.

The fact that the umpires did nothing indicate they did not feel the batter was at a disadvantage and was reasonably set. Still its a judgement call by the umpire.

The fact that he disengaged the rubber and did not drop his hands to his side is a balk in my book. But I am interested in the pro's take on it as well.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Thanks guys and yes it was a quick pitch because the whole process was very quick. I guess it was one of those things that happened so fast and it was so different it just didn't register in everyone's mind as to what he did.

I was pretty confident he balked but I had no idea as to what rules he broke.

At what point do you balk him? When he reengages the rubber or when he starts his motion or at the end of the pitch?
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by GovernorTim:
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.

Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball.

The fact that the umpires did nothing indicate they did not feel the batter was at a disadvantage and was reasonably set. Still its a judgement call by the umpire.

The fact that he disengaged the rubber and did not drop his hands to his side is a balk in my book. But I am interested in the pro's take on it as well.


I think I missed where it is a balk for "just engaging the rubber with his hands together" for OBR anyways. I see no penalty associated with engaging the rubber after disengaging it and never dropping his hands. It is a "Don't do that" but not a balk.

Now, the quick pitch is a different issue. That is a balk but the umpire has to wait until the pitcher is committed to throw to the plate. Remember, with a runner on, merely lifting the nonpivot foot does not commit him to the plate. So, he can "quick" pickoff to 2B. Nothing prevents that.

Unless there is an interpretation or rule I am missing (which there may be since I don't have my material now), there is no balk for engaging the rubber with hands together. It is just a "Don't do that" and the umpires can call "Time" and tell him to not do it. Then, if he persists, they could EJ him for not complying but I wouldn't do that either. Just keep calling "Time" until he gets it.

There is only a balk if the pitcher does a quick pitch. And, that is judgment.
FM Former Member
I didn't look at it from engaging the rubber with hands together for it to be a balk. I would approach it in that he disengaged the rubber with his pivot foot and didnt drop his hands to his side as required. Waiting for him to engage the rubber just gave him the benifit of the doubt and gave him time to drop his hands in this senerio. (moving quickly back to the rubber)

As I remember the rule it does not give a time frame for dropping his hands to his side after disengaging the rubber. So that is a judgement call.

I am not sure if its the OBR or Fed but I believe it's mentioned that once engaged he must come set. But here he already is. The description to come set states " Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion." And when he disengages the rubber he must drop his hands to his sides unless he is attempting to retire a runner at a base.

When 8.01(a)3 says disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

Because he is in a set position with his foot off does that not make it a balk at that point? Giving him time to drop his hands of course.

The Fed rules may have a different take on it so I would like someone with access to the FED rules to help out here.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

I think I missed where it is a balk for "just engaging the rubber with his hands together" for OBR anyways. I see no penalty associated with engaging the rubber after disengaging it and never dropping his hands. It is a "Don't do that" but not a balk.



Rule 8.01 Comment: ...When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides...
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by GovernorTim:
I didn't look at it from engaging the rubber with hands together for it to be a balk. I would approach it in that he disengaged the rubber with his pivot foot and didnt drop his hands to his side as required. Waiting for him to engage the rubber just gave him the benifit of the doubt and gave him time to drop his hands in this senerio. (moving quickly back to the rubber)

As I remember the rule it does not give a time frame for dropping his hands to his side after disengaging the rubber. So that is a judgement call.

I am not sure if its the OBR or Fed but I believe it's mentioned that once engaged he must come set. But here he already is. The description to come set states " Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion." And when he disengages the rubber he must drop his hands to his sides unless he is attempting to retire a runner at a base.

When 8.01(a)3 says disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

Because he is in a set position with his foot off does that not make it a balk at that point? Giving him time to drop his hands of course.

The Fed rules may have a different take on it so I would like someone with access to the FED rules to help out here.

All of 8.01(a)Comment(3) is about stepping off from the windup. It is saying he can't just be on the rubber for the windup, then, without stepping off first, go into the set/stretch position.

Again, no penalty for not dropping his hands to his side after disengaging the rubber. Just a "Don't do that". Now, not coming to a "complete stop" is judgment and that idea coincides with a "quick" pitch.

But, just calling it as soon as he engages the rubber is incorrect b/c there is no penalty for doing it. That is not in the rules. It only says "shall" or "must" but provides absolutely no penalty if he doesn't.

The idea is to prevent a "quick" pitch which is why there isn't a penalty to it. It is a preventative measure to prevent the "quick" pitch but is not a violation with penalty rule.

No balk for not dropping the hands in OBR. Only a balk for "quick" pitch or not coming to a complete stop (which he has done since he is in the set position when he addresses the rubber technically).

I would balk him for a "quick" pitch if I let him get that far. Or, I would call "Time" and let him know that he needs to not "Do that". I opt for option B for the batter's safety.
Last edited by Mr Umpire
FM Former Member
Thanks Mr. umpire that helps clear the air.
I'm not much of a chirper but that may be a case that someone heres me. Smile

I am with you in protecting the batter from a quick pitch. And I would also take into concideration the level of play and use it as a teaching moment and give less leeway to older players.
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
Ok so let me get this straight...

No balk on the not separating of the hands because the rule basically says "don't do that" but could be balked and fall under the category of quick pitch - is that correct?


Yes. The "quick" pitch part is umpire judgment and may be a balk. But, stepping on the rubber with the hands together is simply a "Don't do that".
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
For me a lot depends on the batter. If the pitcher wants to work fast (maybe even very fast), and the batter is ready for the pitch - meaning he's where he wants to be in the box and is looking at the pitcher, I'm all for it.

If the batter is not ready, you must prevent the pitch. I will call time and bark at the pitcher to wait until the batter is looking at him before he starts his motion to pitch.

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