Thanks Dad04 and PG for responding to my question. I wasn't able to find him either and was just curious how he would have been rated ifr he was.
I also looked up Jeff Francis and couldn't find him. As a HS SR he topped out at 80 mph and couldn't buy a scholarship to a US college. I think these stories are interesting to see that you can create oportunities even without 90MPH fastballs. I assume Jeff and RJ would not be rated high by anyone back when.
Lets go with my son's exposure, did the Arizona Junior Showcase, then summer ball on a good team, went to East Cobb for PG event. Attended the Area Code games, Mariner's Cup in August 08. Went to Jupiter in October. My assumption with all this "exposure" is son was seen by many coaches/scouts. Has received little interest. That can only mean son is not high enough on the talent scale. So in our case it if son is actually good enough, it translates into son as "crumbs".
It can however never replace the good kids son played with, the great people you meet. However if you evaluate cost basis, in our case we could have saved thousands of dollars and paid for JC up front. And without the recruiting merry go round. Not complaining here, I realize my son is a "business" to many who care less what he ends up doing in baseball.
I just hope someone reads this before they spend a small college tuition cost chasing the "baseball scholarship/MLB" dream for junior. The odds are too great just to play JC, let alone D1 or MLB. I would suggest, if you really want to know where your son stands, do one event early in their HS years. Once you see the "blue chippers" you can better gauge where your son is. If junior is not into grades, skip it all together. Very few kids change their study habits until after HS. JMO.
It can however never replace the good kids son played with, the great people you meet. However if you evaluate cost basis, in our case we could have saved thousands of dollars and paid for JC up front. And without the recruiting merry go round. Not complaining here, I realize my son is a "business" to many who care less what he ends up doing in baseball.
I just hope someone reads this before they spend a small college tuition cost chasing the "baseball scholarship/MLB" dream for junior. The odds are too great just to play JC, let alone D1 or MLB. I would suggest, if you really want to know where your son stands, do one event early in their HS years. Once you see the "blue chippers" you can better gauge where your son is. If junior is not into grades, skip it all together. Very few kids change their study habits until after HS. JMO.
I believe also that going to a few good showcases, exposes your son to see what is out there.It makes him see the level of play of these types of players.if hes not a blue chipper and realy what percent are?If you look at college rosters and just go by the bios very few teams have more than a couple real blue chippers in my opinion.
PUHD, I agree with you about if the student isnt into grades why bother. But still maybe one would motivate some. Just beware at the JC, there are a lot of athletes who couldnt make it at a 4 year,the student really has to decide what is important to him in that area. ( My son had a 3.5 his first semester of JC)Just thought PUHD that you would be interested in that. The JC has its pluses in many ways but as I stated before that is the one downfall.You will find out if he really wants to play at a 4 year by how hard he works in the classroom.
PUHD, I agree with you about if the student isnt into grades why bother. But still maybe one would motivate some. Just beware at the JC, there are a lot of athletes who couldnt make it at a 4 year,the student really has to decide what is important to him in that area. ( My son had a 3.5 his first semester of JC)Just thought PUHD that you would be interested in that. The JC has its pluses in many ways but as I stated before that is the one downfall.You will find out if he really wants to play at a 4 year by how hard he works in the classroom.
Pop Up Hitter Dad,
That was a very informative post. Your post stands as an example of the many unidentified players that have followed the "only way to go" only to realize that talent determines proper placement.
Your post is in no way "sour grapes" but an objective analysis of your son's showcase/recruitment experience. This recruiting ride is a double edged sword. On one side you can spend thousands of dollars for little or nothing in return (well maybe a few new friends and a few "T" shirts) and the other side you don't want to be the parent that wouldn't turn loose of a few hundred dollars for your son to realize his dream. It's a tough call.
I think your suggestion of being evaluated early is paramount --- I might add that parents need to LISTEN to that evaluation instead of getting a second ---- a third ---- a fourth --- and fifth opinion. If they continue "searching for the right answer" they have fallen into the "showcase mentality" and will spend thousands before reality settles in and their son ends up where he probably would have anyway. I think showcases are great ---- it's the parents I don't understand. What ever happened to the prerequisite of: Must have a scouts recommendation" Sometimes it seems as if that phrase has been replaced with: Must have a valid credit card?"
Fungo
That was a very informative post. Your post stands as an example of the many unidentified players that have followed the "only way to go" only to realize that talent determines proper placement.
Your post is in no way "sour grapes" but an objective analysis of your son's showcase/recruitment experience. This recruiting ride is a double edged sword. On one side you can spend thousands of dollars for little or nothing in return (well maybe a few new friends and a few "T" shirts) and the other side you don't want to be the parent that wouldn't turn loose of a few hundred dollars for your son to realize his dream. It's a tough call.
I think your suggestion of being evaluated early is paramount --- I might add that parents need to LISTEN to that evaluation instead of getting a second ---- a third ---- a fourth --- and fifth opinion. If they continue "searching for the right answer" they have fallen into the "showcase mentality" and will spend thousands before reality settles in and their son ends up where he probably would have anyway. I think showcases are great ---- it's the parents I don't understand. What ever happened to the prerequisite of: Must have a scouts recommendation" Sometimes it seems as if that phrase has been replaced with: Must have a valid credit card?"
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Sometimes it seems as if that phrase has been replaced with: Must have a valid credit card?"
I can't believe how narrow minded many of our posters are, including Fungo. It should be obvious to anyone that actually pays attention, that they'll accept most major forms of cash also.
Wake Up People!
You know... This portrayal of all showcase people being a bunch of money grabbing crooks is getting real old.
This site was started by Bob Howdeshell and one of the main reasons I got involved was because he had a genuine interest in what we do. He also cared about people and didn't want them to get ripped off because he had had a bad experience.
He even went to the trouble of attending various events to find out for himself what was going on. I always felt like he was supportive of what we did. I would have done anything I could to help him. He is an outstanding baseball person and this site has helped so many people over the years.
Since then Bob turned the site over to Julie. Julie coincidentally, happened to have a son who attended an event. In fact, her son could be considered one who some might say wasted his time and money by attending seeing he didn’t receive a DI baseball scholarship. But the world works in mysterious ways and that includes options.
I am all for honesty always. Never once asked Bob or Julie to delete a singlr word from any post. I don’t expect everyone to think a certain way about things and understand people should have the right to say most anything as long as the rules are followed. I am totally against censorship based on most things. However, sometimes it seems that there are people who think my involvement here is some kind of marketing ploy. We don’t have to be involved here to do what we do. We are here because this is a great site with many people who have a lot of experience and are willing to share. I could easily spend the same time on our own message board and it would become more active. In fact, years ago when I did it was very active. Now I hardly look at that message board because this one is much more interesting. Not so many questions about who is ranked where and when will the reports go up. Besides, I really enjoy the topics most that have nothing to do with us. Even the topics that have nothing to do with baseball, sometimes. It would be just great with me if the name Perfect Game never appeared on this site and no one knew who I was. Unfortunately I don’t have the toughness to not reply when we seem to be part of the topic.
I never thought I would say this, but if I have to keep getting this feeling that some think what we do is dishonest and taking advantage of people who don’t know better so long as they have a credit card or some cash… Well that just gets old. I’m positive that anyone who really knows me would know just how wrong that is. We have spent months now trying to figure out how we can legally (by the NCAA) help those who can’t afford what we do. I was in Boston last week talking to a big name potential sponsor that would allow us to make all our individual events to be free of charge. In the meantime, we have around a $5 million dollar operating budget. All the money I want is what it takes to keep doing this because we know how many have benefited because of it over the years.
Of course, there are those that do not benefit. When someone spends money on most anything baseball related, there is always a chance they will not benefit. Is it necessary to list all of those who did not benefit from the money they have spent. We don’t guarantee success and we don’t have a college recruiting service. Besides, maybe some of those people actually think they did benefit somehow. I might just post an email I once received from a dad a nice letter about his son who quit playing baseball after high school. It all started by him bringing up a discussion we had when he was trying to get his son invited to an event. I’ve said this before on here and many times to others who have asked about their son’s when we didn’t know anything about their son. “If your son is really as talented as you say he is, you will be very happy that you went” and “If your son can’t play, you will be throwing your money out the window” Turns out he wasn’t a great talent, but something happened that will be a great memory as long as he lives. Guess we all don’t think the same about everything.
I understand that we are not always the people considered when certain remarks are made. So if there is a problem with any certain company or person, why lump everyone involved in that arena into the accusations. If it is us that someone is referring to, I would be happy to give our reasons for what we do. It is not all about money, we have turned away large sums of money in order to keep our credibility. More than once!
If this topic happened once or twice it wouldn’t really bother me, but new topics keep popping up with the same old theme.
I see other sites where we get blasted and don’t even bother to post there. It hasn’t hurt us as far as I can tell. So it’s just here where I might ever say anything and I have never ever said anything here that I knew to be untrue. Also, the bottom line with much of this is that I can’t tell who is being made fun of here... Is it the ones receiving the money are crooked or the ones spending the money are stupid? Or both?
Wake up people? What does that mean?
This site was started by Bob Howdeshell and one of the main reasons I got involved was because he had a genuine interest in what we do. He also cared about people and didn't want them to get ripped off because he had had a bad experience.
He even went to the trouble of attending various events to find out for himself what was going on. I always felt like he was supportive of what we did. I would have done anything I could to help him. He is an outstanding baseball person and this site has helped so many people over the years.
Since then Bob turned the site over to Julie. Julie coincidentally, happened to have a son who attended an event. In fact, her son could be considered one who some might say wasted his time and money by attending seeing he didn’t receive a DI baseball scholarship. But the world works in mysterious ways and that includes options.
I am all for honesty always. Never once asked Bob or Julie to delete a singlr word from any post. I don’t expect everyone to think a certain way about things and understand people should have the right to say most anything as long as the rules are followed. I am totally against censorship based on most things. However, sometimes it seems that there are people who think my involvement here is some kind of marketing ploy. We don’t have to be involved here to do what we do. We are here because this is a great site with many people who have a lot of experience and are willing to share. I could easily spend the same time on our own message board and it would become more active. In fact, years ago when I did it was very active. Now I hardly look at that message board because this one is much more interesting. Not so many questions about who is ranked where and when will the reports go up. Besides, I really enjoy the topics most that have nothing to do with us. Even the topics that have nothing to do with baseball, sometimes. It would be just great with me if the name Perfect Game never appeared on this site and no one knew who I was. Unfortunately I don’t have the toughness to not reply when we seem to be part of the topic.
I never thought I would say this, but if I have to keep getting this feeling that some think what we do is dishonest and taking advantage of people who don’t know better so long as they have a credit card or some cash… Well that just gets old. I’m positive that anyone who really knows me would know just how wrong that is. We have spent months now trying to figure out how we can legally (by the NCAA) help those who can’t afford what we do. I was in Boston last week talking to a big name potential sponsor that would allow us to make all our individual events to be free of charge. In the meantime, we have around a $5 million dollar operating budget. All the money I want is what it takes to keep doing this because we know how many have benefited because of it over the years.
Of course, there are those that do not benefit. When someone spends money on most anything baseball related, there is always a chance they will not benefit. Is it necessary to list all of those who did not benefit from the money they have spent. We don’t guarantee success and we don’t have a college recruiting service. Besides, maybe some of those people actually think they did benefit somehow. I might just post an email I once received from a dad a nice letter about his son who quit playing baseball after high school. It all started by him bringing up a discussion we had when he was trying to get his son invited to an event. I’ve said this before on here and many times to others who have asked about their son’s when we didn’t know anything about their son. “If your son is really as talented as you say he is, you will be very happy that you went” and “If your son can’t play, you will be throwing your money out the window” Turns out he wasn’t a great talent, but something happened that will be a great memory as long as he lives. Guess we all don’t think the same about everything.
I understand that we are not always the people considered when certain remarks are made. So if there is a problem with any certain company or person, why lump everyone involved in that arena into the accusations. If it is us that someone is referring to, I would be happy to give our reasons for what we do. It is not all about money, we have turned away large sums of money in order to keep our credibility. More than once!
If this topic happened once or twice it wouldn’t really bother me, but new topics keep popping up with the same old theme.
I see other sites where we get blasted and don’t even bother to post there. It hasn’t hurt us as far as I can tell. So it’s just here where I might ever say anything and I have never ever said anything here that I knew to be untrue. Also, the bottom line with much of this is that I can’t tell who is being made fun of here
... Is it the ones receiving the money are crooked or the ones spending the money are stupid? Or both?Wake up people? What does that mean?
Lets go further with Fungo's post on this subject. We always hear about options, good academics appear to widen a players options. For you "Blue Chip" parents/players and us leftover "crumbs", what are the percentage of these kids that went further than college? This is a survey of sorts, it appears to me most of the posters on this site belong to the "Blue Chip" category, sons had very good academics and many went on past college. How many of the "crumbs" continued their dream past college? Please don't take the word "crumbs" as demeaning, I'm just using another poster's name for players unsigned. Now to keep this accurate, if your you or your son signed at Big U, but skipped college for the draft, you still fall into the "Blue Chip" category.
I do not understand the grumblings about showcase costs. Because someone has become the leader in the industry I think would benefit you placing your son amongst those who are successful.I guess or assume that some people will always expect something for nothing, and always find fault with anyone successful.
I would rather look at these events as an opportunity for many young men. They are optional, no one forces anyone to go, and if you think there is a better way go for it. If PG and his staff have found a niche, which apparently they have, God bless them. If they make a fortune, they earned it, and I believe when they say the helped tons of kids, the proof is in the pudding.
I am thankfull for their endeavors, and am sure schools and scouts are also. I just have a perspective that admires free enterprise, and if you don't like the product don't use it. The venues and events are worth every penny, that's my 2 cents.
Merry Christmas
I would rather look at these events as an opportunity for many young men. They are optional, no one forces anyone to go, and if you think there is a better way go for it. If PG and his staff have found a niche, which apparently they have, God bless them. If they make a fortune, they earned it, and I believe when they say the helped tons of kids, the proof is in the pudding.
I am thankfull for their endeavors, and am sure schools and scouts are also. I just have a perspective that admires free enterprise, and if you don't like the product don't use it. The venues and events are worth every penny, that's my 2 cents.
Merry Christmas
PGStaff,
I commend you for having the "ability" to participate in the HSBBW where everyone discusses the pros and cons of ALL aspects of youth baseball. You add a tremendous amount of information to the discussions and your answers are always respected and appreciated. However ALL aspects does include showcases and whenever showcases are discussed Perfect Game will always be front and center. You have put yourself in a vulnerable position. It has to be tough for a showcase promoter to listen to someone say showcases are only in business for the money ---- but that's someone expressing their opinion. They are as entitled to their opinion as you and I are of ours. You must feel somewhat like President Bush as he dodged a pair of shoes thrown at him on National television. Had the president thrown the shoes back and joined in the melee he would have lost credibility in my opinion. He simply "dodged" the shoes and the brunt of the controversy. He knows he's a target as you know you will be from time to time. You are vulnerable but still in a very good position. For every person that expresses displeasure with showcases and possibly Perfect Game, there are hundreds that are staunch supporters of PG. But you and I know just by reading the newspaper that changes are going to happen. With the economy being discussed at every game and every website, it is expected that the cost of showcasing will come under close scrutiny and I'm sure parents will look for less expensive options. Perfect Game staff members should be discussing the impact of the economic downturn on the showcase industry (and I'm sure they are). "How can we make showcasing more cost effective" has to be a question asked by all involved parents and promoters alike. The people you feel threatened by are actually your prospective customers and instead of defending your position at all cost maybe you can analyze their feelings and use it to your advantage. We will always have our differences. We parents have to adjust to the changing landscape of youth baseball and showcase promoters have to change to the needs of the parents/players. While we may disagree I have no doubt that disagreement will produce a better end results for all involved.
Fungo
I commend you for having the "ability" to participate in the HSBBW where everyone discusses the pros and cons of ALL aspects of youth baseball. You add a tremendous amount of information to the discussions and your answers are always respected and appreciated. However ALL aspects does include showcases and whenever showcases are discussed Perfect Game will always be front and center. You have put yourself in a vulnerable position. It has to be tough for a showcase promoter to listen to someone say showcases are only in business for the money ---- but that's someone expressing their opinion. They are as entitled to their opinion as you and I are of ours. You must feel somewhat like President Bush as he dodged a pair of shoes thrown at him on National television. Had the president thrown the shoes back and joined in the melee he would have lost credibility in my opinion. He simply "dodged" the shoes and the brunt of the controversy. He knows he's a target as you know you will be from time to time. You are vulnerable but still in a very good position. For every person that expresses displeasure with showcases and possibly Perfect Game, there are hundreds that are staunch supporters of PG. But you and I know just by reading the newspaper that changes are going to happen. With the economy being discussed at every game and every website, it is expected that the cost of showcasing will come under close scrutiny and I'm sure parents will look for less expensive options. Perfect Game staff members should be discussing the impact of the economic downturn on the showcase industry (and I'm sure they are). "How can we make showcasing more cost effective" has to be a question asked by all involved parents and promoters alike. The people you feel threatened by are actually your prospective customers and instead of defending your position at all cost maybe you can analyze their feelings and use it to your advantage. We will always have our differences. We parents have to adjust to the changing landscape of youth baseball and showcase promoters have to change to the needs of the parents/players. While we may disagree I have no doubt that disagreement will produce a better end results for all involved.
Fungo
Some great points Fungo! The economics will also have a tremendous affect on recruiting budgets. In my estimation, the big showcase events lend a much lower per player cost to view when domiciled in one town for 3 or 4 days. That would be bang for their buck.
If I was a parent trying to get my son exposure in these tough times, I may not chose the less expesive option but as Donnie suggests the best bang for my buck, same as college coaches will do.
I am going to work on that timeline and seek out the best options according to my son's ability and others recommendations.
It's times like these where the seperation between the good and the bad happen, for all business decisions. People will still find a way to spend money but they are going to do it with much more thought than they may have before when both mom and dad had jobs.
They might even learn to pay for it with cash.
PG you have a pm.
I am going to work on that timeline and seek out the best options according to my son's ability and others recommendations.
It's times like these where the seperation between the good and the bad happen, for all business decisions. People will still find a way to spend money but they are going to do it with much more thought than they may have before when both mom and dad had jobs.
They might even learn to pay for it with cash.
PG you have a pm.
Fungo,
I have no problem discussing what we do, why we do it, the results, the negatives and positives, etc. I also understand that everyone being lumped as Showcase Promoters who take money from unsuspecting parents who don’t know what they’re doing… just is not correct.
Personally I have a problem with the whole agent/advisor industry. Not because they are all bad but because there are many who really don’t care about the players best interests. Whenever I discuss agents or advisors on this site, I try to make a point out of the fact that there are some very good ones. Truth is the very good ones would agree with me because they know how many bad ones are out there.
It’s like talking about lawyers, doctors, store owners, etc. I just don’t think everyone can be lumped together because of what they might do for a living.
Personally it’s my opinion that some here would recommend that a talented young player doesn’t have to do anything and all will work out great. While that may have worked for some in the past, I think that is absolutely terrible advice. Especially if we look at what has happened. I will make a bet that if we took every player over the past 5-6 years who ended up being drafted in the first round… That nearly every one of them attended some type of an individual showcase or highest level showcase type tournament in the summer or fall.
Some still would say… These guys would have gone in the first round anyway. However, that is something that is very much an opinion because there is no way of knowing that being they pretty much all did it the other way.
A scouting director was interviewed recently and claimed he didn’t get to see his eventual 1st rd pick swing the bat the first two games he played his senior HS season. They just walked him every time. That doesn’t happen when the top hitter is facing a top pitcher. There are places where the top pitchers are facing the top hitters.
To reply to your comment about the economy. Of course, we are looking closely at that. We understand that some people will not be able to afford what we do. Even more the cost of travel and lodging. We are thinking of every possible way of helping people. It would be much simpler if the NCAA didn’t have certain rules. Nothing could be as bad as our first 6 years, we didn’t cut corners then and we don’t plan to cut corners now. I’m hoping we can figure it all out. Sponsorship is the obvious answer, but money seems to be getting tighter there as well. Maybe the government will bail us out if we can’t afford to do things the same way.
Anyway, we have got some ideas that might be helpful. I just hope that people who want to participate will tell us if they can’t afford it, rather than just avoid it, so we can try to figure out if there is anything we can do to help. If there is a way to help those who are suffering financially and do it without jeopardizing their NCAA eligibility… We are going to do it for absolutely sure.
I have no problem discussing what we do, why we do it, the results, the negatives and positives, etc. I also understand that everyone being lumped as Showcase Promoters who take money from unsuspecting parents who don’t know what they’re doing… just is not correct.
Personally I have a problem with the whole agent/advisor industry. Not because they are all bad but because there are many who really don’t care about the players best interests. Whenever I discuss agents or advisors on this site, I try to make a point out of the fact that there are some very good ones. Truth is the very good ones would agree with me because they know how many bad ones are out there.
It’s like talking about lawyers, doctors, store owners, etc. I just don’t think everyone can be lumped together because of what they might do for a living.
Personally it’s my opinion that some here would recommend that a talented young player doesn’t have to do anything and all will work out great. While that may have worked for some in the past, I think that is absolutely terrible advice. Especially if we look at what has happened. I will make a bet that if we took every player over the past 5-6 years who ended up being drafted in the first round… That nearly every one of them attended some type of an individual showcase or highest level showcase type tournament in the summer or fall.
Some still would say… These guys would have gone in the first round anyway. However, that is something that is very much an opinion because there is no way of knowing that being they pretty much all did it the other way.
A scouting director was interviewed recently and claimed he didn’t get to see his eventual 1st rd pick swing the bat the first two games he played his senior HS season. They just walked him every time. That doesn’t happen when the top hitter is facing a top pitcher. There are places where the top pitchers are facing the top hitters.
To reply to your comment about the economy. Of course, we are looking closely at that. We understand that some people will not be able to afford what we do. Even more the cost of travel and lodging. We are thinking of every possible way of helping people. It would be much simpler if the NCAA didn’t have certain rules. Nothing could be as bad as our first 6 years, we didn’t cut corners then and we don’t plan to cut corners now. I’m hoping we can figure it all out. Sponsorship is the obvious answer, but money seems to be getting tighter there as well. Maybe the government will bail us out if we can’t afford to do things the same way.
Anyway, we have got some ideas that might be helpful. I just hope that people who want to participate will tell us if they can’t afford it, rather than just avoid it, so we can try to figure out if there is anything we can do to help. If there is a way to help those who are suffering financially and do it without jeopardizing their NCAA eligibility… We are going to do it for absolutely sure.
PG,
Flaws are inherent in anything man made and man itself. That being said, one mans ceiling is another mans floor, and what is flawed is a matter of perspective. We, being members, both you and I and everyone, are both flawed and entitled.
There shouldn't be any reason any poster here should reserve his honest opinion on things baseball. That includes their percieved flaws of PG. It ain't perfect, and I know you know that, but I also believe you'd like it to be, which is comendable. The thing is, I was told be a very wise guy, who saved my life once, that I have no right to know what anyones opinion of me is. Turns out he's correct, at least in my mind. I'm actually glad, because I don't like hearing the bad opinions. Having worked in media, regional and national, I've had the displeasure of hearing many opinions of me, just as you do here, so I commisurate with the angst that it can bring.
You are in the unenviable position, here at the HSBBW cocktail party, of sitting just outside the ring of people that are conversing about you, hearing every word. The dilemna is whether to interject and correct the flawed perceptions, or let the group be to find their own direction. Quite the pickle. There is no right answer as you could do damage with silence or word.
I can think you run the most credible showcase business in baseball, and still think you play favorites. I can think you offer the most value to unknown players and still consider you highly expensive. These perceptions, both positive and negative could be correct or incorrect. (FYI, I just used them as examples, please don't attach them to me). The point is, that I should be able to have these opinions and discuss them with peers without fear of stepping on someones toes.
No doubt this site is more valuable with you here.
Since we're characterizing tonight, I'd have to say that your posts were a tad on the thin skinned side, for whatever reason.
My comment, "wake up people", was meant as a 100% joke about people accepting cash, not just credit cards. That's why it had the. I truly am sorry you took it the wrong way.
Flaws are inherent in anything man made and man itself. That being said, one mans ceiling is another mans floor, and what is flawed is a matter of perspective. We, being members, both you and I and everyone, are both flawed and entitled.
There shouldn't be any reason any poster here should reserve his honest opinion on things baseball. That includes their percieved flaws of PG. It ain't perfect, and I know you know that, but I also believe you'd like it to be, which is comendable. The thing is, I was told be a very wise guy, who saved my life once, that I have no right to know what anyones opinion of me is. Turns out he's correct, at least in my mind. I'm actually glad, because I don't like hearing the bad opinions. Having worked in media, regional and national, I've had the displeasure of hearing many opinions of me, just as you do here, so I commisurate with the angst that it can bring.
You are in the unenviable position, here at the HSBBW cocktail party, of sitting just outside the ring of people that are conversing about you, hearing every word. The dilemna is whether to interject and correct the flawed perceptions, or let the group be to find their own direction. Quite the pickle. There is no right answer as you could do damage with silence or word.
I can think you run the most credible showcase business in baseball, and still think you play favorites. I can think you offer the most value to unknown players and still consider you highly expensive. These perceptions, both positive and negative could be correct or incorrect. (FYI, I just used them as examples, please don't attach them to me). The point is, that I should be able to have these opinions and discuss them with peers without fear of stepping on someones toes.
No doubt this site is more valuable with you here.
Since we're characterizing tonight, I'd have to say that your posts were a tad on the thin skinned side, for whatever reason.
My comment, "wake up people", was meant as a 100% joke about people accepting cash, not just credit cards. That's why it had the
. I truly am sorry you took it the wrong way.quote:You must feel somewhat like President Bush as he dodged a pair of shoes thrown at him on National television. Had the president thrown the shoes back and joined in the melee he would have lost credibility in my opinion. He simply "dodged" the shoes and the brunt of the controversy. He knows he's a target as you know you will be from time to time.
To be honest, I would have thrown the shoes back. There are many other things more important when it comes to credibility IMO.
I'm not sure if baseball showcasing is a zero sum game. If it were, it is not reflected in the showcase profiles which show ever more players committing to colleges. I suspect college recruiters have gotten the message a long time ago: If I want a good player, I had better attend these showcase events.
Let's say there are 3000 baseball players on the Titanic. It's sinking. There are only lifeboats for 1500. The "blue chip" prospects represent the women and children, so they go first.
Now, what about the rest of us? Should we debate the pros and cons of showcasing, whether we should consider the costs of purchasing a lifejacket, or perhaps consider to wait it out for a possible rescue..
..or should we hustle our butt to the front of the line?
As I've said, though, I don't view it as a zero sum game. Just perhaps, the competition, the showcasing, is elevating competitive baseball and creating more and more talent players. Just perhaps, universities like Oregon have realized baseball is on the rise, and the Titanic has added more life boats!
Let's say there are 3000 baseball players on the Titanic. It's sinking. There are only lifeboats for 1500. The "blue chip" prospects represent the women and children, so they go first.
Now, what about the rest of us? Should we debate the pros and cons of showcasing, whether we should consider the costs of purchasing a lifejacket, or perhaps consider to wait it out for a possible rescue..
..or should we hustle our butt to the front of the line?
As I've said, though, I don't view it as a zero sum game. Just perhaps, the competition, the showcasing, is elevating competitive baseball and creating more and more talent players. Just perhaps, universities like Oregon have realized baseball is on the rise, and the Titanic has added more life boats!
quote:Since we're characterizing tonight, I'd have to say that your posts were a tad on the thin skinned side, for whatever reason.
CPLZ,
I will be the first to admit I'm a bit thin skinned. Especially after recent threads.
I am thin skinned because I care! The most important thing to me when it comes to baseball... is my reputation! I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a good businessman. I already know I'm not!
I do care if someone insinuates that what we do is about nothing but the money. I also know that others can't always see things the same way someone else sees it. Sometimes something can appear very innocent and unassuming to others while you might see it more personal. Has that ever happened?
If we were talking about the drug dealing business I can see how we might lump everyone together as one group, no matter how large a drug dealer one of them might be. They are all bad in that case.
Anyway, I know it's best to keep my mouth shut. I'm just not smart enough to always do that. You are right we all have our faults, for sure I do.
Perhaps it would be best if I just read rather than post, like I do at other sites. It really isn't all this important.
An excellent post, pop up hitter dad..........
I spent more money on baseball during my boys high school years than I have paid for college.
I didn't do it for exposure. I did it because it was fun.
We met a lot of great people and have made many, many friends.
The experience my son gained led to him getting the opportunity to play baseball in the Big 12 conference and eventually be drafted into professional baseball.
The scholarship that he had probably reduced the cost of his three years of education to me by about $9,000.
Was what I spend on travel ball and a three or four showcases worth it?
You bet.
Was it a good "investment"?
No.
I've said on here many times that the late October Perfect Game event in Jupiter was one of the best baseball experiences I ever had.
For those of you whose son's have not played beyond high school, or at a major D1 school, my son is a "blue chipper".
But, really, when we left Jupiter, I thought privately to myself that my son did not have a snowball's chance in hell to continue to play.
Now there are some on here whose sons have been drafted in the earlier rounds and my son has friends and teammates that were drafted in the early rounds and even the first round.
Those are the "blue chippers" now.........
You have to attend a showcase, MLB tryout, or play against some competition to make an honest assessment of your son's abilities.
Here is a fallacy of travel teams. You can spend enough money for your son to continue to play for awhile, even if he does not have the talent.
That feat becomes more difficult once they enter the high school arena and remote once they enter college.
This reality begins to sink in to most parents as the transition to college begins. Now, my son will have to face that reality at the end of every season, and, in many ways, everyday.
If you are spending money to get a college scholarship, the proper amount to invest is less than the amount of the cost of the first year at a juco.
I spent more money on baseball during my boys high school years than I have paid for college.
I didn't do it for exposure. I did it because it was fun.
We met a lot of great people and have made many, many friends.
The experience my son gained led to him getting the opportunity to play baseball in the Big 12 conference and eventually be drafted into professional baseball.
The scholarship that he had probably reduced the cost of his three years of education to me by about $9,000.
Was what I spend on travel ball and a three or four showcases worth it?
You bet.
Was it a good "investment"?
No.
I've said on here many times that the late October Perfect Game event in Jupiter was one of the best baseball experiences I ever had.
quote:Once you see the "blue chippers" you can better gauge where your son is.
For those of you whose son's have not played beyond high school, or at a major D1 school, my son is a "blue chipper".
But, really, when we left Jupiter, I thought privately to myself that my son did not have a snowball's chance in hell to continue to play.
Now there are some on here whose sons have been drafted in the earlier rounds and my son has friends and teammates that were drafted in the early rounds and even the first round.
Those are the "blue chippers" now.........
You have to attend a showcase, MLB tryout, or play against some competition to make an honest assessment of your son's abilities.
Here is a fallacy of travel teams. You can spend enough money for your son to continue to play for awhile, even if he does not have the talent.
That feat becomes more difficult once they enter the high school arena and remote once they enter college.
This reality begins to sink in to most parents as the transition to college begins. Now, my son will have to face that reality at the end of every season, and, in many ways, everyday.
If you are spending money to get a college scholarship, the proper amount to invest is less than the amount of the cost of the first year at a juco.
quote:..or should we hustle our butt to the front of the line?
Great Post FO.
It appears my earlier post was taken by some as a dig against Perfect Game, by no means was that my intent. In my opinion, watching the AFLAC game and the press they receive on Jupiter, they are tops in their business. It is very commendable that Jerry even posts on this site. I know from personal experience PG truly is in this business to identify good players, I should have put in a disclaimer for them. For that I apoligize to PGstaff.
Being a wordy post, my main point was to get your son in earlier to these events to better gauge the competition so you know where he stands. The competition at our HS level is so low, it can skew ones opinion of their son's talent. There is no point in continuing to "showcase" a player who isn't intent on working hard in academics. As a matter of fact why even showcase them? Many large schools saw my son, did they actually try to recruit, no, once they saw the GPA.
The JCs recruit locally mainly, looking for the players who cannot make the grades or in many cases cannot afford the larger programs. So in the end, it really boils down to their willingness to work hard in class. So on with the discussion please.
Being a wordy post, my main point was to get your son in earlier to these events to better gauge the competition so you know where he stands. The competition at our HS level is so low, it can skew ones opinion of their son's talent. There is no point in continuing to "showcase" a player who isn't intent on working hard in academics. As a matter of fact why even showcase them? Many large schools saw my son, did they actually try to recruit, no, once they saw the GPA.
The JCs recruit locally mainly, looking for the players who cannot make the grades or in many cases cannot afford the larger programs. So in the end, it really boils down to their willingness to work hard in class. So on with the discussion please.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
[QUOTE] .....I would have thrown the shoes back. ...............
White House Press Secretary reported George is recovering from Tommy John!
$5M ! Until one has directed a Baseball Tourney for fifteen years with zero player fees with it's sole purpose to develop and expose the talent and capabilities of the HS student-athletic and zero fees, then talk to the hand !
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Perhaps it would be best if I just read rather than post, like I do at other sites. It really isn't all this important.
Not a good idea, as I would lose 30% of the audience in my annual American Idol thread
Always love to read FO's posts - honesty plus humility.
There are two things that make a blue chipper. Blue chip talent plus blue chip productivity. A lot of guys have figured out the blue chip talent part. The productivity part is much harder to come by imho.
Pop Up,
Just to be clear, sometimes responses are based on the topic itself and the direction it takes. Seldom is it a personal issue for me. I don't think you've ever posted anything that could be confused as damaging to anyone's reputation.
The truth is, I really am too sensitive when it comes to certain things. Usually this revolves around things said insinuating that all anyone cares about is taking money from people. I actually do feel bad when people have to pay us. Especially those who can't really afford it. I wish I knew who those people were at times, so I could apologize to them. So it does bother me, but don't know what to do about it. It's the part I hate the most. I don't want people to think of us with the main focus being "they just want your money". There is much more involved and we could easily cut corners to profit much more, but we don't cut corners.
Back to discussion... My opinions in red...
I really do enjoy these type discussions. Even if someone disagrees with some of it.
Just to be clear, sometimes responses are based on the topic itself and the direction it takes. Seldom is it a personal issue for me. I don't think you've ever posted anything that could be confused as damaging to anyone's reputation.
The truth is, I really am too sensitive when it comes to certain things. Usually this revolves around things said insinuating that all anyone cares about is taking money from people. I actually do feel bad when people have to pay us. Especially those who can't really afford it. I wish I knew who those people were at times, so I could apologize to them. So it does bother me, but don't know what to do about it. It's the part I hate the most. I don't want people to think of us with the main focus being "they just want your money". There is much more involved and we could easily cut corners to profit much more, but we don't cut corners.
Back to discussion... My opinions in red...
quote:There is no point in continuing to "showcase" a player who isn't intent on working hard in academics. As a matter of fact why even showcase them? Many large schools saw my son, did they actually try to recruit, no, once they saw the GPA.
Some showcase because they want to play professional baseball after high school. Its not just college coaches who go to these events. Of course, most are more interested in college. If the only goal is to get into a highly regarded academic institution, that will not happen no matter how good you are unless you can get accepted into that college. However, there are still opportunities available to most anyone who displays enough talent.
The JCs recruit locally mainly, looking for the players who cannot make the grades or in many cases cannot afford the larger programs. So in the end, it really boils down to their willingness to work hard in class. So on with the discussion please.
Actually in many parts of the country the highest level JCs recruit nationally more than the local DIs. In fact, junior colleges are very popular with Latin players and even kids from Canada. The great thing about JC baseball is it gives many kids an opportunity in many ways. It continues the professional dream and gives players another chance at getting to the higher levels of four year schools. Best of all, it can be extremely affordable. The top jucos get an amazing ammount of scouting attention. We see many of the top jucos at big events, right along with the top 4 year college coaches. They too, are part of the recruiting and scouting community. A very big part! Of course if a player is talented and wants to stay home and play at the local college program, they can probably do that without spending much money. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and doing that will not end all the future opportunities.
There are many ways to end up at the top. Anyone that says it is a must to go to PG or any other event or you won't be successful, is not being truthful. Anyone who tells you all you have to do is attend a PG or other event and you will be successful, is not being totally truthful.
I really do enjoy these type discussions. Even if someone disagrees with some of it.
quote:$5M ! Until one has directed a Baseball Tourney for fifteen years with zero player fees with it's sole purpose to develop and expose the talent and capabilities of the HS student-athletic and zero fees, then talk to the hand !
Bear, In that case... Guess I will go ahead and talk to the hand, then. The majority of all the tournaments we hold have absolutely zero player fees that are received by us. They have become the largest and most scouted tournaments in baseball history. Unbelievable ammount of talent has been exposed. However, we have nothing to do with developing that talent in most cases. That is not to say that the teams are not developing that talent. I would never take credit for developing talent because we held a tournament.
Probably doesn't mean a whole lot to you but, I'm aware of much that you (Bear) have done to help young players. I consider you one of the true pioneers in this area. Might disagree with your posts, but you definitely have earned my respect for all that you have done.
I believe one of the greatest option's a player has going for him is exposure to baseball Scouts and Recruitors.
You can choose to be seen by them at a showcase
( the Right Showcase for your player ).
Or take your chances and hope that just playing the game will be enough to get him noticed.
You know ( if your good enough they'll find you? ).
I never believed in that approuch, I've seen to many talented players that were good.
They just were never at the right place at the right time.
Also Player options at the right age, Late bloomers.
Pop Up Hitter dad, Don't give up on finding the right fit for your son.
The one thing a Player needs or Parents and coaches that believe in them. That goes along way in boosting there confidence.
My Son's GPA was not the Highest, His SAT scores were not that high.
He signed mid July after his senior year to a Great fit for him.
The one thing that worried him before he signed, Was that he couldn't make the grade in the class room.
He did not want to Fail. ( fail us ).
Well I'm happy to say he's in to his Junior Year and ahead of the game in his classes.
The NW is not the easiest place to be seen by Colleges.
Have your son Contact the recruitors, find out who's interested in you.
Coaches want to have players that are interested in there team.
They have EGO'S, and want to be wanted also??
Good Luck
EH
You can choose to be seen by them at a showcase
( the Right Showcase for your player ).
Or take your chances and hope that just playing the game will be enough to get him noticed.
You know ( if your good enough they'll find you? ).
I never believed in that approuch, I've seen to many talented players that were good.
They just were never at the right place at the right time.
Also Player options at the right age, Late bloomers.
Pop Up Hitter dad, Don't give up on finding the right fit for your son.
The one thing a Player needs or Parents and coaches that believe in them. That goes along way in boosting there confidence.
My Son's GPA was not the Highest, His SAT scores were not that high.
He signed mid July after his senior year to a Great fit for him.
The one thing that worried him before he signed, Was that he couldn't make the grade in the class room.
He did not want to Fail. ( fail us ).
Well I'm happy to say he's in to his Junior Year and ahead of the game in his classes.
The NW is not the easiest place to be seen by Colleges.
Have your son Contact the recruitors, find out who's interested in you.
Coaches want to have players that are interested in there team.
They have EGO'S, and want to be wanted also??
Good Luck
EH
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Usually this revolves around things said insinuating that all anyone cares about is taking money from people. ... I don't want people to think of us with the main focus being "they just want your money". There is much more involved and we could easily cut corners to profit much more, but we don't cut corners.
Here's the rub though. You do actively market your services. Your organization is not passive waiting for people to come to them. When my son was playing on a PG travel team, there was a pretty consistent effort to get him to come to showcases. I viewed those efforts as a source to generate income for PG. Nothing wrong with that and profit is not a dirty word.
Your characterizations that your integrity is being questioned or people are clamoring about money grubbing are to a great extent unfounded, hence my comment about being thin skinned. People should not metaphorically "walk on eggshells" around you when they want to talk about showcasing for fear that their opinions could have the effect of...
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Perhaps it would be best if I just read rather than post, like I do at other sites. It really isn't all this important.
That's not being fair to the audience and membership here and tends to stifle the kind of openness requisite for substanitive discussions. There are plenty of people here who have in the past and will continue in the future, to praise PG and come to their defense when unjustly characterized, myself included.
I too at one time was the most visible personality in my little niche marketplace. With the praise comes the flinging pooh. It comes with the territory. Congrats on your overwhelming success, it's not easy to stand tall and keep your head down.
quote:When my son was playing on a PG travel team, there was a pretty consistent effort to get him to come to showcases. I viewed those efforts as a source to generate income for PG. Nothing wrong with that and profit is not a dirty word.
Obviously all businesses need to bring in revenue. There will always be a consistent effort to get the most talented that we know about to attend. That is at least equal if not more important than generating income. Must admit, I'm not involved in the marketing. A person would need to contact me before hearing anything related to marketing. There really are many people who know that!
I have people within our organization that ask me why I spend so much time at this website. I tell them because it is important! Guess it has just been recently that I've noticed anything appearing to target what we do. I know others come to our defense and that is appreciated. But sometimes when you really know something that others might not know, isn't it hard to stay silent.
There are other websites that say unkind things that often are untrue. I don't reply at all. I just like this one the most.
Listen I know this stuff is getting old to some. In fact, it is getting real old to me. So I will try hard to stay out of discussions about showcases and tournaments. It's not going to change anyone's opinion anyhow.
There are a small number of organizations who may misrepresent what they can deliver. This isn't different from any other business market. Otherwise I don't believe most showcase organizations are crooks. Each showcase has something to offer. The client (player/family) needs to have the right expectations based on the opportunity. It's up to the player and parent to do the research on a showcase to see if it offers what they are looking for.quote:This portrayal of all showcase people being a bunch of money grabbing crooks is getting real old.
For example, being on the east coast I've done some research on College Select. I met TR when his team was playing in our area. I cruised around and talked to a few parents during the game to see who's attracted, and why, to the program.
If I hadn't done my homework, heard College Select is a good organization, sent my kid to one of their showcases, then became upset because the Pac 10 schools weren't in attendance, whose fault is that? How often are people willing to pass the blame because they didn't do their homework?
The preceding is addressed to the 18U market. I have other thoughts about the 16U and 14U market. This is where we get into "perceived value." My son had an opportunity to play for a 16U showcase team. To me, the cost was absurd for a kid who will be finishing his sophomore season. He will be playing on a 16U feeder team to an 18U program. They're planning one trip to Jupiter. My feeling is if a fifteen or sixteen year old is ready for showcase ball, play on an 18U team. If they can't make one, maybe they aren't ready to showcase. It's what we did with my daughter and softball.**
** I recognize girls physically mature faster than boys. My daughter showcased at fifteen and sixteen. I don't see the value for my son. The only size my daughter gained after fifteen was fifteen pounds of muscle from training. My son has a couple of inches and forty pounds to go.
quote:White House Press Secretary reported George is recovering from Tommy John!
If I may offer a
Reuters was reporting the president was actually wearing Tommy Hilfiger .
But on a serious note... This is an interesting discussion. I think the remark made by Pop Up Hitter dad regarding events early in HS is spot on. Any player considering baseball past HS should test the waters early by participating in a big time event, whether it be an eval showcase or a tourney with national scope. This is especially sage advice for kids who reside outside the major metropolitan baseball breeding grounds. I don't see anything wrong with parents being proactive in their approach to raising their kids. Should it be any different for a parent pursuing academic enhancement for their child? Talent may not be enough any more.
The bottom line, for me, is you have to prepare for reality. In competition, as in battle, the first step is sizing up your opponent. My son and I opted for the tournament approach to accomplish this, but at some point getting an evaluation from a reputable source such as PG is gonna happen.
While one might argue that there are now more players, better prepared players, vying for the same amount of roster spots, I can't see where that is a bad thing. I think there's still going to be a spot for a decent player, the caveat being that not all opportunities are equal, and sacrifices will have to be made. Players will continue to drop out for a number of reasons, injury, grades, motivation, etc.
Maybe we're witnessing a shift of participation from recreational to club level in all sports, and parents are trying to prepare their kids for the challenges they're bound to face. If anything, at least around these parts, there is more noticeable growth in other club sports such as basketball, s****r, and even alternatives such as extreme sports. This to me would support consistent levels or even a slight decline in overall numbers in youth baseball. Unless there are reliable figures to go on, this is all a matter of perspective.