batted ball speed

To tell you the truth, it's were they hit the ball and how they hit the ball. Rather then how fast it comes off the bat.
I've never had a coach ask that question.
It will tell you if he is making good contact though.
Just keep driving the ball and work on his speed of foot, good soft hands on fielding, and throwing ability.
If they can get a hit consistently with power to all fields.
He will move up.
Have fun these coming years, its a blast.
Everything will take care of it's self in time.

EH

I am a long time reader of this forum and am finally ready to start posting. This topic is close to what I have been looking for also.

How were the measurements taken? Was he hitting off a tee?

I think the best judge would be how far his long ball goes. I have searched the forums and can't find a thread that talks about home run distance of elite HS hitters. With metal/wood.

What is the magic distance for how far a kid can hit a ball before he will get noticed. I am talking about game HR's here hit off of good pitching.

Say 90mph is the magic number for pitchers. Is that 400 ft HR's? Or 425? I know there distances will be exaggerated the same way velocity is but what is your best guess?

If a kid is hitting ropes into the outfield does it really matter knowing the velocity? When my son was fourteen all I looked at was he hitting the ball as hard as the best hitters his age. Each year I look at his (sixteen last summer playing 18U) hitting the same way. He's playing with the best in his area. Is he hitting like them? I'd have to think his velocity was lower last summer playing all wood bat.

quote:

home run distance of elite HS hitters

Don't worry about home runs. If a kid hits the ball hard the power will come. A friend's son didn't hit a homer in high school. The knock on him in his scouting report after his soph year in SEC ball was not enough power given he would probably have to be moved from short to third in pro ball. His junior year he hit 20. His first full season in the minors he hit 20. Since high school he's been a line drive hitting machine. He eventually got bigger and stronger.

I often catch some of the better HS kids hitting at 96-98 off the bat and have caught college players at around 100 but there is no " magic" number or HR distance because these don't really tell enough about a hitter when taken by themselves. A big strong kid who really can't hit might one time really get ahold of one and blast it 425 ft+. That doesn't mean he's a college or pro prospect. There are great line drive hitting guys who of course never hit 425 foot drives. These are interesting numbers but I don't think they tell a lot about a hitter if you do them one time or against inferior pitching.

I understand more power usually comes later and at times a lot more. I realize the same can happen with pitching velocity.

I will just give my situation. My brother is 15. Will be playing 15u next summer and is in Freshman year. This year his longest game HR went about 360-380. He had at least 3 more that were about 350. Each easily carried a 320' or more fence. He also had about 6 more that were on shorter fences and although they cleared easily it is tough to tell distance. He batted around .500 this year in travel. He really only faced one what I would call elite pitcher, a 15u kid gunned at the tourney cruising 86. He got hit by a pitch on a 3-2 count and had a hard ground-out to short in other.

He is about 5'10" and weighs 180. Good size but by no means big for current travel that he plays. He has 2 brothers that are 6'2" and our dad is 6'1" so we do expect he is still growing.

So what I am asking is at what point does a power hitter really get noticed?

While this really won't answer the questions above it really is the best answer once you've seen it.

You know a hitter is a prospect by the sound of the ball off the bat and seeing how the ball jumps off the bat. You can see this during BP as well because those who are prospects stand out.

Like someone said earlier a kid might get lucky in BP or a game and launch one but listen / watch his next 4 or 5 swings and the effort he puts in. It won't be the same as just that one. But a kid who has it and knows how to use it; his swings are all the same with pretty much the same effect and effort.

Last season myself and head coach were standing at the left center field fence during BP one day. We got a kid who has already signed to play with East Carolina and is getting talked about in the draft. Our fence is about 330ish deep and he was hitting balls about 50 feet over our head. You just know it when they hit it. The rest of our guys had great contact but it just wasn't the same.

My advice is to find a high school that has a kid like this and let your son(s) watch and listen to the stud in BP. Have them burn that into their memory (and yours) and when their BP starts to sound and look like that then you know you got someone special.

Coach,

Funny that you describe it that way. Up here in NH we have a player that was the first from NH to ever play in the TOS. He has gone on to play in East Cobb and the Area code games as well. Most of the scouts who are ever quoted in articles in reference to him all say the same thing...the ball sounds different coming off of his bat then a normal high school hitter. From what I know (have personally never seen him play yet)he is a line drive machine with some pop, hit one 400ft in East Cobb apparently. It has always stuck with me that it was the sound off of his bat, in a game or BP that let the scouts know he was special, not how far he hit them or how fast his bat speed was but the "SOUND OFF HIS BAT". He is headed to Maryland next year.

Same thing about the sound of the ball. I had the pleasure of watching Jaff Decker from AZ when he was trying out for a group of scouts. We had the field next so we got to watch. What a treat. The sound was amazing. I have only heard that at MLB batting practice.

Whenever we are at a tournament or a practice, everyone notices that sound. People wander over to watch. It is something that is hard to describe, but easy to hear. You just know it is a shot.

baseball 3- that time of 83 was off a tee on an inside cage. He hit between 5 and 10 balls in games 340 - 360 range as an 8th grader in jv and 14u travel. He turns 14 end of next July. Just thought Someone migh know of Batted ball speeds expected of seniors recruited for college. Thanks in advance for responses

83 is pretty fast. I don't have any stats, but I remember watching a White Sox game a few years ago. They were timing Albert Bell's bat speed. He was late on the first fast ball and his bat speed was 88. He was thrown a fastball at the same speed later in the at bat and hit a gapper. His bat speed was still 88.

Timing with speed. Sounds like your kid is pretty strong. What size bat is he swinging?

DMan it wasn't has bat speed it was batted ball speed, his bat speed was low 70's. he was using exo 33-30

Sounds like this 14 year old is strong, for sure, but it is not as tough to square it up against most pitchers of that age. At 16U and above, he will see some more movement on fastballs and breaking balls and change-ups!


Bat speed is important, but almost irrelevant if a player can't square up the ball with the bat.

There are many things that will increase bat speed, most of which have already been mentioned.

Batted ball speed is increased dramatically when you get it on the sweet spot. Metal bats with the trampoline effect add even more when you catch it just right!

Albert Pujols' bat speed is remarkably slow when compared to some others, but he keeps his bat on plane and in the hitting zone longer than almost any other hitter!

see this thread

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...671040313#7671040313

Best of Luck to this young man, but it sounds like bat speed is not going to be an issue for him?

BTW, my Son was recruited by several D-1 schools and not one ever asked about or measured his bat speed or batted ball speed?

I agree with the above comments about the sound coming from the batted ball of a very good hitter.

I also believe you can see and evaluate bat speed. Seeing a fluid, effortless, balanced fast swing is noticable even if it's a swing and a miss.

I've gunned some guys off of a tee (hey, 3 days of rain can make you goofy)... I did have one kid that broke 90 (HS junior); he had a sweet left handed swing and really good power.

Most of my HS hitters were in the 70's; stronger swings in the 80's... the point is there is a lot more to being a good hitter, as you know

ther are so many good explanations that one is hard to pick... the way the ball comes off the bat is a big difference, some hitters that hit for average rather than power actually hit harder than power hitters, its all in the swing, bat speed, sweet spot. so many variables its hard to get into them all. listen to the ball when it come off the bat of chipper jones as to the difference in griffey junior, 2 different style hitters but the sound is about the same, though griffeys bat speed at one time was alot greater than jones but jones hits better for average. I dont go by mph on the bat its to hard to judge, but i do know bat speed, type of swing, and the way it jumps and sounds I do know. I could go on for hours but I wont but dont be put off by the MPH to many people now days rely on it watch some good HS hitters and tune into them, then go to college and listen to them.... but the one defining factor is when it comes to the wood.. can he do it then!!

He's 14 now, or 13? How big is he?

Souther- He played 14u last year didn't turn 14 till end of July. Will be playin 15u this summer as a 14 yr old

sorry forgot to list size he's abot 5'10 170lb or so as of Nov 2009

.

quote:

Originally posted by Base_ball03:
I am a long time reader of this forum and am finally ready to start posting.

That's the spirit Base_ball03! Welcome aboard the HSBBW. You already know that it is chock full of good information and good people. We look forward to your continued posts!




.

Opening up this older chat.  It seems that both bat speed and ball off the bat speed (exit velocity??) are being discussed more these days.  I realize that a good swing is a good swing, solid contact sounds solid, ropes are what we want, and a good hitter stands out.  Just curious if this 4 y/o chat can be updated with any numbers regarding bat speed and ball off bat speed.  Seems to be more folks talking about it these days.  Thanks!

I don't know what my son's swing speed is as it's never been measured.  I can say his exit velocity was measured about a year ago, when he was 13, at 82 mph.  It was with a BBCOR bat off a tee.  I believe, from sight alone, that it has increased since then.

I can give you some numbers that I just captured last Sunday from my son's summer college prospects team in New England.  I measured batted ball velocities (BBV) of 8 kids - 6 of whom are 2016 grads and 2 of whom are 2017 grads.  I measured BBV off of a tee with wooden bats.  All boys are swinging 33" drop 3s.  Here is what each kid averaged over 10 swings with the best and worst recorded values discarded:

 

2016 Boy #1 - 77, he is 5'10" and weighs 190lbs

       Boy #2 - 74, he is 5'7" and weighs 170lbs

       Boy #3 - 75, he is 5'11" and weighs 155lbs

       Boy #4 - 65, he is 5'6" and weighs 140lbs (he is primarily a pitcher)

       Boy #5 - 76, he is 5'9" and weighs 170lbs

       Boy #6 - 77, he is 5'10" and weighs 180lbs

2017 Boy #1 - 71, he is 6'1" and weighs 150lbs

       Boy #2 - 77, he is 6'1" and weighs 150lbs

 

If you average the averages above (again discarding the high and low), you get an average for this sample of 75mph.  I hope that provides some comparative data albeit from a small sample.

I have 2017 grad and I think you are in the right area. it has been almost a year since he had it done but I recall he was 77 or somewhere around there. BBCOR bats off a T

This is one of those measurements that will become more prevalent, and more accurate, with TrackMan measurements at PG events.

 

I am involved with a facility here in Washington.  We have a radar gun off to the side (looking in on a hitter from the pitcher's perspective) to read batted ball speeds.  It reads a little low unless you pull the ball right at the gun, similar to getting slightly lower pitching readings as you move away from directly behind home plate.  Off a tee is always slower than off the ProBatter pitching machine we have.  It really depends on how well you "square the ball up," but when he does, my 2015 son usually gets 84-88 or so off the tee, and generally 3-6 mph or so better when he hits off the ProBatter, always with wood (a scientific article here reports that batted ball speeds with wood will be about 9 mph slower, on average with wood as compared to the best "metal" bats but I can't tell from the summary when this was done or whether those were old BESR bats, or BBCOR; from other articles we'd expect about 5% lower performance from BBCOR vs. BESR).  From my experience with radar and pitchers, I'd guess that these readings are 2-5 mph low based on radar positioning, but that's just a guess.  His readings are at or near what the best HS and local college players we've tested are.

 

I've seen some batted ball speeds reported online.  Here is one.  It includes some averages by age (looks like these were done pre-BBCOR, in 2010), and includes an average and an "elite" level expectation by age.  There was also a discussion of this here at HSBBWeb last May where Stafford posted an eval sheet from DeMarini Top 96, specifically measuring BBCOR bats off a tee, with ranges of 63-78 with 69 as average for HS, 82-93 for college, 87-89 as mid level for college, and "pro level" at 102 (here's another link for pros from Beyond the Boxscore showing an average of 30 batted ball exit speeds).  NYdad2017 also posted a link to some readings for top 2014 and 2015 kids at a prominent evaluation combine program (Nine Baseball; about 84-89 for both groups; younger ages were also listed and were lower).  The best TrackMan readings from Jupiter were in the 100-108 range.

 

Hopefully these give you a pretty good idea of what to expect by age and ability level.  Readings can definitely vary swing-to-swing (even squared up balls), and radars vary too.  It is best to judge relative to other readings from the same gun/facility.  As others have said, this only really matters as a measurement of potential, and not so much of effectiveness or performance as a hitter.

 

My son has never been timed for this curious what it really means. Know a hugh kid here with mid . 90 s number and in real games he strikes out a lot w good pitchers. So not sure it correlates. My son does have fast hands through zone and hits pretty good. Went to a big D1 camp last month and head coach  sat right next to net and never once looked to see where balls were hit on field-he was looking at form only. Sure his assist .  were looking but he did not.

My son has never been timed for this curious what it really means. Know a hugh kid here with mid . 90 s number and in real games he strikes out a lot w good pitchers. So not sure it correlates. My son does have fast hands through zone and hits pretty good. Went to a big D1 camp last month and head coach  sat right next to net and never once looked to see where balls were hit on field-he was looking at form only. Sure his assist .  were looking but he did not.

I look at it in 2 ways:

 

1) From the coaching perspective, it gives me an idea of how the player compares to others of his size and age, how consistent his exit speeds are and a point in time measure to compare against as the player develops.  In this regard, I can use it in combination with other measures and actual performance to provide more targeted development advice

 

2) From the scouting perspective, it gives me a measure of power potential that correlates to slugging percentage when combined with exit angle.

 

The bottom line for me is that batted ball velocity is 1 measure, like many others, that provides a piece of the hitting puzzle / player profile.  I don't believe when used alone that it provides any direct correlation to actual performance.  It is a piece of the puzzle though and it has value for me in both coaching and scouting.

I think this article by Gary Ward gives a good idea of how coaches use batted ball speed to evaluate hitter potential. 

 

http://www.baseballnews.com/ol...evaluate_hitters.htm

That's a good article, however, doesn't mass come into the equation somewhere? My guess is that there are heavier, stronger kids with less bat speed that can achieve equal or greater distance than a lighter player with more bat speed?

 

Or am I off base?

 

They are measuring batted ball speed vice bat speed.  At least thats how I understood it. 

3 points:

1. Bat/Exit speed

You must compare apples to apples.

 

Bat speed - different speeds with wood or metal, or different weights/MOIs (easiest to use wood)

 

Exit speed - see bat speed (depends on the bat), and depends on pitched ball speed (tee vs. 90 mph vs. 55 mph BP)

 

You must compare like vs. like.  You can't compare metal bat bat speed with wood bat exit speed.  You can't compare tee exit speed with BP exit speed.

 

-----

2. Distance

This is not a math formula, but distance = exit speed + spin rate  (ex. 3500 rpm spin rate vs 2000 spin rate = approx 15 feet)

 

So, 2 guys with same exit velocity may hit the ball 15 feet apart.

 

Consistent spin rate is achieved by your swing plane (I think ).

 

BTW, this is one of 2 reasons why scouts must be very, very careful when only using exit speed to compare hitters. (edit: reworded this for EdgarFan below).  The other reason is that hitters can face varying pitch speeds (97 FB vs. 85 FB vs 65 curve).  Also, 97 mph pitches will vary for plate speed, which is the only ball speed which impacts exit speed.

 

-------

3. Pujols bat speed myth

 

It's a myth that Pujols has a slow bat speed.  GQ is not your go-to for stats.  They compared bat speed to exit speed.

 

To give an indication of how bad this myth is, Pujols hit a HR in 2013 with 116.1 mph exit speed (I know it's not bat speed), which was the MLB's 11th fastest. The fastest was Mark Trumbo at 120.1 mph.

 

I agree, that was an excellent article.  I agree with SUAWTG, that batted ball exit speed is what they are measuring, and that wouldn't necessarily be a function of mass only (or maybe directly? independently? not a physicist here...).  

 

From a baseball perspective, we know that bat speed is hugely important, but won't by itself determine batted ball exit speed because the ball simply won't reach top exit speeds unless it is being hit squarely on the barrel (especially, or most unforgivingly,  with wood).  Assuming a constant contact point with the (same) bat, I guess greater bat speed will directly correlate with greater batted ball exit speed, but that just doesn't exist in the real world of baseball.

 

Likewise, and to get to Stafford's point, I guess if you continue to assume a constant contact point but you change one variable - bat size - a heavier weighted bat should produce greater batted ball exit speeds.  I'm probably going to show my math and physics ignorance here, but if force = mass x acceleration, then acceleration = force divided by mass, and we know there is a relationship between acceleration and velocity, because acceleration is the rate of change in an object's velocity over time.  Maybe they aren't directly related in the same way acceleration is related to force and mass because theoretically it is possible for an object with a constant velocity to have no acceleration, but that doesn't exist in the real world of baseball we're talking about, since the ball has to go from 0 mph at point of impact to whatever the measured batted ball speed is.  Acceleration HAS to be involved, and therefore mass has to have an effect.

 

Again, though, I'm not sure you can assume a constant point of contact.  Think about it, if the same kid swung a heavier bat, his bat speed would be reduced, right?  And therefore he doesn't make contact, or makes late contact, or poorer contact.  Sure, if the theoretical "big kid" swinging a heavier bat has enough extra strength and quickness  to swing a heavier bat as quickly as the average-sized kid swings a lighter bat, the heavier bat will exert more force, resulting in greater acceleration (and eventually, higher measured velocity).  But how often is that actually true?  As pitchers have gotten stronger and faster over the last hundred years, bats have evolved to be lighter and lighter, for one reason: as a measure of PERFORMANCE (not just batted ball speeds), batters swinging heavier bats simply can't produce enough bat speed to keep up.  If you can't get the bat to the optimal point of contact on time in baseball, you lose.  

 

So, as the question is posed by Stafford, it almost answers itself.  If the stronger kid has less bat speed, he'll never make the same contact, and because less bat speed is a result of less acceleration, he won't necessarily exert more force on the ball.   He's just traded less acceleration for more mass, but force is still mass x acceleration.  The lighter bat swung faster is capable of exerting the same (or greater) force as the heavier bat swung more slowly, because the lighter bat swing has more acceleration.  The evolution of bat design has been about optimizing the exertion of force on the ball within the constraints of needing to get the bat head to the optimal point of contact ON TIME.  Batters have realized they can't swing the heavier bat and get there; any theoretical advantage in the heavier bat is meaningless (from a performance standpoint) if you can't consistently make the right kind of contact to produce optimal batted ball speeds.

SoS, I agree with everything you say in your terrific post there, but quibble a bit with the statement "this is why scouts must be very, very careful when using the Trackman exit speed only to compare hitters." It's not that I disagree with the statement so much as (1) TrackMan doesn't just measure batted ball exit speeds, among other thing it also measures spin rates (at any point, either of a pitched or batted ball) and launch angles...it produces enough information that a person who knows what each measurement means for success can make a pretty good projection; and (2), as PGStaff said in another recent thread (about TrackMan being used at PG events), TrackMan will never replace what the scout sees.  The art of scouting will never go away, it just might get enhanced by being combined with (and confirmed by) the science of scouting - things like TrackMan.

 

We're really getting to similar points by focusing on different things in response to Stafford's question, though.  You're saying that distance isn't just a function of batted ball exit speeds, and I got into a whole physics lesson only to ultimately say it doesn't matter unless you get the bat to the right place at the right time.  Both of us are really making the "it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian" point: you have to have the right hitting mechanics to get the bat to the right place at the right time to maximize EVERYTHING that matters in performance - batted ball speeds, launch angles, spin rates, everything.

 

 

 

Thanks for tall the replies.  Good stuff!

Here were top 10ball off bat speeds in Jupiter.

(And here's the BA article)

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com...bat-trackman-tables/

 

EXIT SPEED
Rank	Hitter	High School	MPH	Play Result
1	Shane Benes, ss/3b/rhp	Westminster Christian Academy, Town and Country, Mo.	108.1	Foul
2	Blake Wiggins, 3b/c	Pulaski Academy, Little Rock, Ark.	106.3	Foul
3	Ty Buck, 3b	Red Wing (Minn.) HS	103.9	Single
4	Bobby Bradley, 3b/1b	Harrison Central, Gulfport, Miss.	103.0	Home Run
5	Brian Gonzalez, 1b/lhp	Archbishop McCarthy, Miramar, Fla.	102.9	Double
6	Shane Benes, ss/3b/rhp	Westminster Christian Academy, Town and Country, Mo.	102.9	Out
7	Jacob Gatewood, ss/3b	Clovis (Calif.) HS	102.4	Out
8	Justin Smith, of	Bartram Trail HS, St. Johns, Fla.	101.9	Double
9	Jacob Barfield, 3b/rhp/1b	Pearland (Texas) HS	101.7	Foul
10	Gareth Morgan, of	North Toronto Collegiate, Toronto, On.	101.7	Single

 

Were those off pitches?  Big difference with that vs static off a tee.

Yes, those were measured in-game.  Wood bat tournament.

 

Thanks.