When is something going to be done to help a pitcher? batters get the protective gear, a helmet, a bat , can move out of the way if they want and if you pitch one inside you get a warning. if one pitch after that happens to get loose then you could get kicked out.
Hey Batters...... if it's a bad pitch it's a ball in your favor, if it hits you, you get a pass to first base, what's next you want to know what pitch is coming?
cry babies... dish it ... learn to wear it.
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Son was hit in the head by an 86 MPH fastball, was down on the dirt dazed for 5 minutes, and pouring blood out of a cut that required stitches later that night. The outcome could have been way worse, as there was little scarring and no serious concussion issues. That the sort of thing you want to see?
BDS - The problem is that guys don’t know how to pitch inside. Everybody now, including your son, throws 95. 95 at the dome is not being very nice. LoL
Adam Greenberg probably disagrees.
Actually 2018 hit a kid in the head last week at 94, nearly cut off his ear. Not sure how the helmet did that. it was clearly a 4 seam that got away for him. I did not want to see injury, but there is a risk involved. I saw a Juco player 2 years ago take a batted ball off his forehead at 102.... three days at Vanderbilt hospital ... I never want to see that again... I think baseball games should have scores like 3-1 ... 4-2... not 14-11
My guess is MLB is turning into a home run derby...
Ja'Crispy posted:Adam Greenberg probably disagrees.
He stepped in the ring...
bacdorslider posted:Actually 2018 hit a kid in the head last week at 94, nearly cut off his ear. Not sure how the helmet did that. it was clearly a 4 seam that got away for him. I did not want to see injury, but there is a risk involved. I saw a Juco player 2 years ago take a batted ball off his forehead at 102.... three days at Vanderbilt hospital ... I never want to see that again... I think baseball games should have scores like 3-1 ... 4-2... not 14-11
My guess is MLB is turning into a home run derby...
Ja'Crispy posted:Adam Greenberg probably disagrees.
He stepped in the ring...
I don't think anyone is rooting for either batter or pitcher to get hit. Those are serious injuries that cause serious damage and you really don't have time to get out of the way of either ball. Both take risks crossing the lines and if you can minimize those serious injuries then everybody is better off. I guess I am missing the point of your original post, batters should just toughen up they know what they are getting into? Yeah, I guess they know but should baseball not try to prevent serious injury and leave it sort of laissez faire?
Baseball will keep turning into a HR derby until the day it doesn't. It's an ever evolving product. Teams are already trying to experiment with different things to combat batters from swinging for the fences all of the time.
No, I think that's precisely what the OP is rooting for, and stated .
hshuler posted:BDS - The problem is that guys don’t know how to pitch inside. Everybody now, including your son, throws 95. 95 at the dome is not being very nice. LoL
I agree, you have young kids throwing heat that don't know how to pitch inside and that's dangerous.
Sports are dangerous. Getting into the batters head is what a pitcher is supposed to do. What pitcher doesn't enjoy watching the batter weave/dive/flinch and jump out of the way of a strike, that they thought was coming at them? Does it get away from them on occasion, yup, but it's part of the game.
I don’t see anything wrong with getting drilled in the back, hip, thigh when it’s intentional - that’s baseball!
Balls get away from pitchers all the time but intentionally throwing at someone’s head is grounds for a good ole-fashioned donnybrook.
I was told last night that the average MLB is now 92-93.
hshuler posted:I don’t see anything wrong with getting drilled in the back, hip, thigh when it’s intentional - that’s baseball!
Balls get away from pitchers all the time but intentionally throwing at someone’s head is grounds for a good ole-fashioned donnybrook.
I was told last night that the average MLB is now 92-93.
I can agree with that. Intentionally trying to hit the head is going too far. However, clipping someone on an inside pitch, that just happens.
57special posted:Son was hit in the head by an 86 MPH fastball, was down on the dirt dazed for 5 minutes, and pouring blood out of a cut that required stitches later that night. The outcome could have been way worse, as there was little scarring and no serious concussion issues. That the sort of thing you want to see?
Our son took a 75 mph curve (that didn't break) in the head. Impact was right at the ear hole, cracked the helmet and knocked him out cold. He ended up with a severe headache which was diagnosed as a concussion. Had to sit out for at least two weeks. Fortunately, he recovered with no lasting affects. This was in the summer of his junior year of HS several years ago.
I really don't understand the OP's point. Is he lamenting that batters get all this protective gear and pitchers don't?
CaCO3Girl posted:hshuler posted:I don’t see anything wrong with getting drilled in the back, hip, thigh when it’s intentional - that’s baseball!
Balls get away from pitchers all the time but intentionally throwing at someone’s head is grounds for a good ole-fashioned donnybrook.
I was told last night that the average MLB is now 92-93.
I can agree with that. Intentionally trying to hit the head is going too far. However, clipping someone on an inside pitch, that just happens.
The issue here is that its HS baseball. It definetly is the pitchers responsibility to try to back the hitter off the plate, and try to intimidate those that think about trying it, these skills really not present in most high school pitchers.
BDS is only saying that hitters get to wear all types of body armor to defend themselves but pitchers nothing. I agree.
The story of those posted about sons getting hit in the head just proves further that guys are throwing pitches that get away from them are still going through a learning process. Its a lot different than the head games played in professional ball. Drilling a hitter in the body only means putting a man on base, so lots of thought has to be put into who, what and where to punish the hitter. No head hunting allowed, ever.
Some examples.... in pro ball the batters are wearing all this gear and leaning out over the plate trying to take the inside pitch away. The umpires ( league) is allowing this and IF you come inside ( not to hit someone on purpose) then you can and i have seen pitchers get the warning. That's basically telling the pitcher you cannot pitch inside.
That's BS.... an occasional hit batter in pro ball hurts more than HS ball. Physically and to the team.
Now in high school I am not advocating any type of head hunting period. 99% of HS pitchers do not have the control to pitch inside effectively and most coaches do not want them to pitch inside. I have seen a trend with HS playing gearing up like the pro players do.
The other night when 2018 was throwing .( and I know this because the next day the opposing coach told him this) he told his batters to get on the plate take the inside away and swing at anything like a fast ball , and take the off speed. Then after many attempts to hit the ball they decided to bunt. When they square to bunt 2018 brings it in high and tight.... does not want to hit them but back them off. This is when the kid got hit in the head.
So there are two areas, pro ball and amateur ball. I just feel that the game is taking away some of the pitchers ability to compete on every level.
Not always a warning to pitchers. Last weekend umpire would not award base to the hitter because he intentionally leaned in and got hit. This affected the outcome, that team lost the game and the fans were MAD at the call.
There is NO valid comparison to being able to "pitch inside" when we are talking High School Baseball and Professional Baseball. HS Pitchers velocities have increased to amazing levels over the course of my career but their experience level remains the same. I was pleased to see the above comment regarding the fact that the majority of most HS pitchers do not have the control necessary to pitch inside PRO Style.
HS baseball is not Professional baseball. HS baseball has its own rule set making it a different game. Much of NFHS rules are implemented for player safety, reducing taunting and intimidation and making HS baseball open for more players to compete.
You often hear these sort of laments such as the OP here from Parents of Pitchers but rarely do you hear the same agreed to by the batters parents of players that are injured. Its tough talk to hear from them knowing that most HS pitchers get DH'd for and never get in the box themselves....
I'm in charge of the safety of the participants of the game. I'm trained and experienced. I know the difference between pitching to the inside of the plate and throwing at a batter. I will keep player at the plate who goes over the line to draw a HBP and I will warn a pitcher for any deliberate action in hitting a player. I will eject, without regret, any pitcher who ignores this warning.
I understand that balls get away......and that's why its important that we (umpires) do not get swayed by the "old school" "sissy" "cry babies" comments. Use the rules we have, In the spirit of the rule set being applied.
piaa_ump posted:"There is NO valid comparison to being able to "pitch inside" when we are talking High School Baseball and Professional Baseball. HS Pitchers velocities have increased to amazing levels over the course of my career but their experience level remains the same. I was pleased to see the above comment regarding the fact that the majority of most HS pitchers do not have the control necessary to pitch inside PRO Style."
Has anyone done any modeling of HBP locations (heat map type stuff) for MLB? Perhaps a review of ball/strike call accuracy on pitches "inside"?
I think the topic is very relevant, but I am not quite sure about the flow and tone. Talking about some kid getting his ear almost cut off because hitters now wear elbow guards seems a little inflammatory. 2017 has had several close calls on come-backs but has been lucky so far. I think the risk is heavily weighted towards the batter, especially in high school where the pitch speed can be 90+ while the skill of the opposing batter can very greatly. Having a 90mph fastball "miss" against some slow-twitch 1B type guy is not going to go well for the batter.
Have the pitcher wear those cap inserts and maybe some googles/frames (like racquetball) and that would address a good portion of the potential bad outcomes for the pitcher. A good cup, mouthpiece and maybe some soccer shin guards and now they should be ready.
I really don't think this is about pitcher safety, but rather the perceived inequities between pitcher and batter. I do think the emphasis on ensuring that the batter makes the effort to bail, as well as strike calls when the batter gets hit in the strike zone, are efforts to empower the pitcher. With current technology, there should be plenty of good data coming out of MLB that can shed some light on the "inside" pitch - as well as potentially some info on where the batter is setting up (maybe they need to develop a bat locator tag). I like nothing more than an inside strike under the batter's hands as they crowd the plate. Throwing off the plate by any significant amount to "back off" a legally positioned batter is not something I think is appropriate or something that works with good hitters. Elevating that pitch inside to make a stronger point is simply wrong.
I don't recognize this. I see kids get hit all the time (one of my son's teammates has been hit 9 times in 16 games). Teams are taught to "wear it." And then they take their base, no complaints. One game a couple weeks ago the opposition pitcher hit 7 batters (and that pitcher is a 2018 signed with a D1). Whatever. He lost that game. Like TPM, this week I also saw a teammate get hit and the ump make him stay in the box for not making an attempt to get out of the way. Whatever. He singled later in the at bat.
I just see it as part of the game. Oh, and regarding the protective gear, my son's coaches won't let him hit without an elbow guard (RHP but LH hitter) due to his pitching elbow being exposed.
The skill levels in HS baseball can vary greatly and can be easily proven by the number that continue to play beyond HS. A reasonable person cannot expect HS competition to have a team full of college level/bound players, with an approach and skill level beyond the HS level........it's likely much less.........closer to U15 overall, with some very good players sprinkled in. I say this because most college bound players have seen higher levels of play in travel ball and a majority of travel ball players will NEVER know the college ball experience.
At my sons HS, only two out of the entire program have played travel ball, a ratio of 30:1 (2 JUCO commits and 1 D1).
My son has had two outings, one in Oklahoma and one at home. At both locations, the umpires both stated they had never called a game where the pitcher was easily above 90 and apologized for missing a lot of calls but commended him for keeping his composure for not getting the calls. Son understands it's part of the process and next year he's blessed to get an opportunity to learn at the next level.
I believe it's important to understand a HS player or pitcher bound for college baseball is a thoroughbred in a field of horses and pro bound player is more of a unicorn.
Bad habits, like leaning in on a pitch...........can be a tough lesson they will wear for a couple weeks, when it's coming in at 93. It seems the armor gives them a false sense of protection. I witnessed a kid inject his head into a pitch a couple nights ago, both stupid and dangerous. I believe this to be the result of poor coaching and even worse tactic to get on base. Most "ballplayers" would rather have an opportunity to hit the ball instead of a walk/HBP, regardless the outcome of the batted ball.
bacdorslider posted:If your going to crowd the plate as to try and get an advantage over the pitcher , then be prepared to get hit. Either the pitcher is going to back you off or he lacks control either way part of the game . I agree with player safety rules in HS . But when the coach tells the players to get the toes on the plate, every single batter , he is opening his players up to injury . Of course being rhe parent of a pitcher i see things differently. But if mine hit i would take advantage of wearing gear. Batters cant have it both ways, crowd the plate, wear the gear and then complain about getting hit
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All things equal, the batter gets the chalk line. Pitcher gets the 17" plus the black, the deception and off speed.
bacdorslider posted:If your going to crowd the plate as to try and get an advantage over the pitcher , then be prepared to get hit. Either the pitcher is going to back you off or he lacks control either way part of the game . I agree with player safety rules in HS . But when the coach tells the players to get the toes on the plate, every single batter , he is opening his players up to injury . Of course being rhe parent of a pitcher i see things differently. But if mine hit i would take advantage of wearing gear. Batters cant have it both ways, crowd the plate, wear the gear and then complain about getting hit
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Umpire failure...
If a batter has toes on the plate, that's my area to control.........batters must be completely in the batters box........the line is considered in the box......so toes on the line is ok.........but no closer.
its my job to notice, its my job to enforce......
Chalk line for their feet but their elbows/arms will encroach the black and beyond. I've seen more umps send the batter back for not attempting to get out of the way.
The physics of getting hit with a 5 oz ball at 93 mph versus, say, 85 mph is that the faster pitch imparts about 10% more force. If a kid is ready, willing, and able to get hit by an 85 mph pitch, I don't think a 10% greater force is going to change the equation for him.
BDS, I think we're saying the same thing. If you are willing to "wear it" and come to the plate with your toes on the line, don't complain if you are hit.
BDS - I agree that pitchers have to use both sides of the plate to be most effective.
When I coached, we faced teams that would never throw inside for fear of hitting batters. I was more interested in my guys learning how to pitch...and if they occasionally hit a batter, it was a learning opportunity.
My son has been hit at least ten times in 26 games so far this year and I didn’t have a problem with any of them, including the one that was intentional. The kid drilled him with a 90mph FB but it was in the hip. If he threw at his head, yes, I would have an issue with that.
I wonder if we’ll see pitchers wear some type of mask/headgear, like softball, in the future.
The thing I see is that kids are learning more velocity than actually learning to pitch and hit spots at an early age. My son goes inside as needed. When some coaches see him they comment they can get him much higher in velocity. Don't want that now. He is still learning the art of pitching.
TPM posted:
BDS is only saying that hitters get to wear all types of body armor to defend themselves but pitchers nothing. I agree.
Actually, pitchers can and have worn protective gear. I've seen pitchers wear face masks, à la fastpitch softball after they've been hit in face with a comebacker. I've seen pitchers wear hard helmets on the mound. They make undershirts with plates over the chest to protect from cardiac arrest if hit.
Nothing the the rules preventing pitchers from wearing protective gear, so if the OP is HONESTLY concerned and not just whining, armor your boy up and let him rip.
And I agree with PIAA Ump. Completely irrelevant to compare MLB to HS as a basis of supporting an argument.
bacdorslider posted:Nuke , i not really worried about the come backer , as much as the hitter being able gear up and take away the inside pitch and if you do hit him then eveyone thi ks your head hunting , hs or pro. Giving a pitcher gear to wear means nothing . The gear for the batter is to get an advantage over the pitcher. Gear for a pitcher is not to gain advantage over the batter.
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Well, gear for pitcher's head could help for, you know...safety. Most don't bother of course.
Also, gear for hitters is also about...safety. I think you are being too cynical. However, yes, some hitters wear the medieval elbow gear (Barry Bonds did) to ALSO gain a competitive advantage.
In college the rule is you have to make an attempt to move out of the way of a pitch thrown at you. There’s been multiple times this year the rule was enforced.
in juco we had a pitcher who would intentionally throw at batters when they bunted.
Ive never seen a batter intentionally hit a pitcher with a ball. However, I’ve had pitchers throw at me and teammates on purpose and cause harm to the batter.
pitchers in college are now able to hit batters and get away with not giving the hitter a free base because they didn’t “attempt” to move out of the way.
bacdorslider posted:The hitters gear is an advantage , and connot be justified ...
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Are you saying that hitter's gear should be disallowed so that that inside pitch - on the chalk let's say - is more effective? More effective at imparting a sense of fear? There is a whole lot of room to place a pitch other than outside the black at elbow level or higher. If their elbow is encroaching, then it should be a strike (complain to the ump). But to disallow an elbow guard to protect against those pitches that "get away" is not a great argument. Maybe you can start throwing at their kneecaps - that ought to back them up and I haven't see a kneecap protector yet.
Without question coaches tell their guys to buy the guards, crowd the plate and take the free base. Son plays for a very successful coach who has said as much. And from the pitcher's perspective it's crap. If you want to take a fastball off of an exposed elbow, have at it. You've earned it. But standing there hoping to take advantage of a minor mistake with no resulting penalty...nah.
I support headgear. That shouldn't be a question. I support the ankle gear. Guys don't intend to foul one of the foot/ankle, and it is not part of the pitcher's game to get them to do so. I don't support elbow and forearm guards. And I do support giving the pitcher a little latitude to back guys off of the plate by coming inside off the plate.
Bob Gibson said, "Don't dig in on me." And his contemporaries understood and were fine with it. It's supposed to be a competition. Not glorified batting practice.
If you want to take a fastball off of an exposed elbow, have at it. You've earned it. But standing there hoping to take advantage of a minor mistake with no resulting penalty...nah.
I guess Elvis Andrus earned his free base. Looks like he was really crowding the plate when than pitch crept inside and broke his elbow. Out 6-8 weeks. Must have been leaning over the plate with his back elbow no less - makes sense.
