I think the span of this discussion supports one pertinent point that should definitely be part of the decision-making process, namely: Coaches come and go.
Four of the schools at the top of my son's list from four years ago have new pitching coaches (one is on their second pitchng coach). Two have new head coaches.
Proceed accordingly: forewarned is forearmed.
I wanted to revive this discussion as my son is in the middle of the recruiting process and as a pitcher it seems like a good question to get opinions on some good pitching coaches and programs. He really liked and we were impressed with Seton Hall's pitching coach Phil Cundari when we went for a visit. I understand as does he that coaches come and go but at this point in time who would you say are some of the better pitching coaches and or pitching programs? Thanks in advance for all and any thoughts!
LHPJamesmom posted:I wanted to revive this discussion as my son is in the middle of the recruiting process and as a pitcher it seems like a good question to get opinions on some good pitching coaches and programs. He really liked and we were impressed with Seton Hall's pitching coach Phil Cundari when we went for a visit. I understand as does he that coaches come and go but at this point in time who would you say are some of the better pitching coaches and or pitching programs? Thanks in advance for all and any thoughts!
If the pitching coach is or for the most part is also the Head Coach, then there should be a lot less worry about turnover. Coach Savage at UCLA, for example, would be one at the top of my list.
As I see you are on the East Coast I'm pretty confident Brian O'Connor (HC at UVa) is considered one of the best PC's on this side of the country.
Kevin O'Sullivan was one of the top pitching coaches at Clemson before he became the head coach at Florida.
Note: the coaching staff has changed since the following example
A few years ago I was watching a Big East game. When I attend college games I always grab the stat sheets. Some give more data than others. I noticed a unique combination of stats on the visiting team pitchers.
A parent started complaining about the handling of pitchers. In this scenario I wasn't surprised the dad of a relief pitcher would be complaining. Relief pitchers were very short on innings. A few of the parents backed up what I saw on the field and on the stats sheet. The dad of a starter said the coach toasted his son's arm.
The (then) head coach left his pitchers in way too long with high pitch counts. Pitchers with four walks per seven innings were averaging 7+ innings per start (typically means lack of command and high pitch counts).. Maybe the coach lacked confidence in his bullpen. But isn't risking using the bullpen less risky than risking pitchers arms with high pitch counts.
One of the often ranked programs in the country has a reputation for having pitchers drafted in high rounds. These pitchers have a history of needing arm surgery within two years of turning pro. It's from the excessive use in college. I'll leave it to someone else to name the program and the head coach. It's not a secret.
One of LSU's past head coaches had a reputation of toasting arms. So, going with a top program doesn't mean a pitcher's arm gets protected. Do your homework.
Note: TPM can correct me if I'm wrong. Her son chose Clemson because of the (then) pitching coach. He shied away from LSU due to the (then) head coach.
I have a personal affinity for Jorn at Arkansas. He's produced a lot of mlb talent over the years, Dallas Keuchel and Drew Smyly among them. Most impressive to me is the fact that, of the 17 Razorback pitchers drafted since 2009, 16 improved their draft position by pitching under his tutelage.
justbaseball posted:As I see you are on the East Coast I'm pretty confident Brian O'Connor (HC at UVa) is considered one of the best PC's on this side of the country.
No doubt Coach O'Connor is a darn good coach, but Karl Kuhn is the pitching coach.
http://www.virginiasports.com/...arl_kuhn_165807.html
RJM posted:Kevin O'Sullivan was one of the top pitching coaches at Clemson before he became the head coach at Florida.
Note: the coaching staff has changed since the following example
A few years ago I was watching a Big East game. When I attend college games I always grab the stat sheets. Some give more data than others. I noticed a unique combination of stats on the visiting team pitchers.
A parent started complaining about the handling of pitchers. In this scenario I wasn't surprised the dad of a relief pitcher would be complaining. Relief pitchers were very short on innings. A few of the parents backed up what I saw on the field and on the stats sheet. The dad of a starter said the coach toasted his son's arm.
The (then) head coach left his pitchers in way too long with high pitch counts. Pitchers with four walks per seven innings were averaging 7+ innings per start (typically means lack of command and his pitch counts).. Maybe the coach lacked confidence in his bullpen. But isn't risking using the bullpen less risky than risking pitchers arms with high pitch counts.
One of the often ranked programs in the country has a reputation for having pitchers drafted in high rounds. These pitchers have a history of needing arm surgery within two years of turning pro. It's from the excessive use in college. I'll leave it to someone else to name the program and the head coach. It's not a secret.
One of LSU's past head coaches had a reputation of toasting arms. So, going with a top program doesn't mean a pitcher's arm gets protected. Do your homework.
Note: TPM can correct me if I'm wrong. Her son chose Clemson because of the (then) pitching coach. He shied away from LSU due to the (then) head coach.
Exactly the reason I am trying to get a good understanding of the different coaches and pitching programs out there. Thank you for the replies. I assume looking into the prior stats for the team as far as pitching is a good way to see how much they pitch their guys and if they are overusing their arms. Then after my son makes a commitment we will keep our fingers crossed that the coaches are still there when he gets there.
I have an extremely limited geographic point of reference.
Great: PC at Arizona State. His mission is to develop all the pitchers ASU determined were good enough to recruit. He is a former MILB pitcher who upon retiring finished his degree while spending several years learning how to teach pitching (just because you were a pro pitcher doesn't mean you actually know how to teach).
Not so great: San Diego. It doesn't actually have a PC this year because it's PC left the first week of school for another PC job leaving the pitchers in the hands of some type of committee. The results show. Moreover, despite having tremendous recruiting classes in the past, pitchers didn't really develop. (I define develop as improving mechanically, increasing velo, improved command and control over the college years.)
Not so great: San Diego State. Several pitchers drafted recently (Cederof [touching over 100], Walby [same]), exhibited the same mechanical flaws the day they got to school as when they left three years later.
At both schools, the top six pitchers were pitched into the ground.
At the D3 level (or D1 for that matter) you can not get any better than Trinity's David Smith. He could coach at any level successfully, but I think he stays there for personal reasons. Their program has been on the leading edge of modern baseball conditioning including weighted balls for many years (no offense to Kyle Boddy, but he was in diapers when they started this) They routinely have kids drafted or signed and always lead the nation in pitching stats.
You may be disappointed if you think you are going to a school to 'develop' as a pitcher. These coaches have many horses in the stable and will trot out the fastest/best horse on any given day in order to win.
It's up to you. Don't depend on anyone else.
Having said that, there are coaches that will leave kids in too long, or even pull them out too early. Both are not good. Watch some games. Listen to their post game talks. Some never have pitchers drafted. Some have rashes of pitching injuries for multiple seasons. Do your homework.
SultanofSwat posted:You may be disappointed if you think you are going to a school to 'develop' as a pitcher. These coaches have many horses in the stable and will trot out the fastest/best horse on any given day in order to win.
It's up to you. Don't depend on anyone else.
Having said that, there are coaches that will leave kids in too long, or even pull them out too early. Both are not good. Watch some games. Listen to their post game talks. Some never have pitchers drafted. Some have rashes of pitching injuries for multiple seasons. Do your homework.
I wasn't saying that I wanted to find a school where my son would be "developed" as a pitcher. I am just trying to get some updated opinions on people's thoughts on good pitching coaches and or pitching programs at this time. We will be doing our homework but just gathering some additional thoughts on programs we may want to look into.
IMO, it is a pitching coaches job to develop pitchers, problem is that many don't know how to do it because it isn't easy. And of course lots depends on who you are trying to develop, some players are not necessarily coachable.
Some can and do develop future pro and ML guys, but most develop HS pitchers into effective college pitchers as is what they should do, or not be in that job.
RJM posted:Kevin O'Sullivan was one of the top pitching coaches at Clemson before he became the head coach at Florida.
Note: TPM can correct me if I'm wrong. Her son chose Clemson because of the (then) pitching coach. He shied away from LSU due to the (then) head coach.
Kevin O'Sullivan heads the #1 ranked team in the country. He is also the Gator pitching coach and still one of the top in the country.
To correct the above, son chose Clemson over UF because of Sully,he did not care for the Gators pitching coach at the that time. If you know Sully, then you would understand.
LSU head coach at that time was Turtle Thomas who son liked a lot, however, it was for geographical reasons that he didn't even accept an OV.
I am going to give a shout out to Clemson's new pitching coach, Andrew See. This guy is really very very good. He was Monte Lee's first and only choice as his pitching coach. Duke's ERA was top notch in the ACC while he was there.
Top two based on my sons personal experience:
Karl Kuhn at UVA
Jason Burke at Wofford College
This site has been fantastic...really great information. So I have a 2017 son who matured late and is young for his class (currently a junior and 16). Now 6'2"/185lbs. Always has been SS and RHP...but not fully focused on pitching as he was always needed in the field. Now that college reality is setting in...looking like a 3rd baseman or straight up RHP. A strong student...if he wants to focus on pitching- he wants to play for the best "teachers-of-the-game". If you had to pick 2 or 3 northeast schools in each of the following categories that have the best pitching coaches: 1) Ivy League, 2) D1, 3)D3. Thank you again!
I would use the strength/lack of a good PC as (perhaps) a tie breaker - if that.
If the Ivy's are within reach, I assume your S is a solid student. Let him pick the best school match (he'll know for his own reasons); the family can collectively create the lists of schools everyone would be fine with.
The extremely high academic schools (whichever division) are job factories; it's much easier getting a good high paying job than getting drafted - much less making any real money - so focus on the rest of his life, not the PC (who is usually looking to move up the coaching chain at whatever college will help achieve the goal).
If he has pro talent, that can be developed by his school PC or by his private PC. My S went to one of those schools; it didn't even have a pitching coach. The lack of that harmed his career. So what? When he finishes, he's an economist from. . . . His private PC did the heavy lifting baseball skills wise.
My son (2017 RHP 6'2 195) is preferably looking for a D1 school in the south east (SEC, ACC) with a pitching coach that could develop him into the best pitcher he could be. Looked into Wes Johnson from Mississippi State and Flordia with O'Sullivan. Also interested in JUCO if he doesn't go D1. It's hard to find pitching coach information on the Internet today and was wondering if anyone had any school ideas. Thanks
RHPSEC posted:My son (2017 RHP 6'2 195) is preferably looking for a D1 school in the south east (SEC, ACC) with a pitching coach that could develop him into the best pitcher he could be. Looked into Wes Johnson from Mississippi State and Flordia with O'Sullivan. Also interested in JUCO if he doesn't go D1. It's hard to find pitching coach information on the Internet today and was wondering if anyone had any school ideas. Thanks
By now an ACC or SEC would be looking at him and closing the deal not the other way around.
RJM posted:RHPSEC posted:My son (2017 RHP 6'2 195) is preferably looking for a D1 school in the south east (SEC, ACC) with a pitching coach that could develop him into the best pitcher he could be. Looked into Wes Johnson from Mississippi State and Flordia with O'Sullivan. Also interested in JUCO if he doesn't go D1. It's hard to find pitching coach information on the Internet today and was wondering if anyone had any school ideas. Thanks
By now an ACC or SEC would be looking at him and closing the deal not the other way around.
RJM is correct, they recruit you not the other way around.
RJM is generally correct. Most of 2017 SEC/ACC recruits are already lined up. There are exceptions. I can tell you a little about Wes Johnson. TPM can help you with O'Sullivan. She knows more about O'Sullivan than I do about Johnson. PM if I can help.
Just read TPM's post. 100% agree. If a school wants you, there is absolutely no doubt!
TPM posted:RJM posted:Kevin O'Sullivan was one of the top pitching coaches at Clemson before he became the head coach at Florida.
Note: TPM can correct me if I'm wrong. Her son chose Clemson because of the (then) pitching coach. He shied away from LSU due to the (then) head coach.
Kevin O'Sullivan heads the #1 ranked team in the country. He is also the Gator pitching coach and still one of the top in the country.
To correct the above, son chose Clemson over UF because of Sully,he did not care for the Gators pitching coach at the that time. If you know Sully, then you would understand.
LSU head coach at that time was Turtle Thomas who son liked a lot, however, it was for geographical reasons that he didn't even accept an OV.
I am going to give a shout out to Clemson's new pitching coach, Andrew See. This guy is really very very good. He was Monte Lee's first and only choice as his pitching coach. Duke's ERA was top notch in the ACC while he was there.
My son was recruited by Coach See but never got the chance to play for him before he departed. It appeared that he was good at getting the most out of players. IMO, getting the job at Clemson speaks to his ability.
Attend the College Coaches Convention. Talk with the coaches, the pro scouts attend the seminars, LEARN AND EVALUATE!
BOBhttp://goodwillseries.org/
BK_Razorback posted:TPM posted:RJM posted:Kevin O'Sullivan was one of the top pitching coaches at Clemson before he became the head coach at Florida.
Note: TPM can correct me if I'm wrong. Her son chose Clemson because of the (then) pitching coach. He shied away from LSU due to the (then) head coach.
Kevin O'Sullivan heads the #1 ranked team in the country. He is also the Gator pitching coach and still one of the top in the country.
To correct the above, son chose Clemson over UF because of Sully,he did not care for the Gators pitching coach at the that time. If you know Sully, then you would understand.
LSU head coach at that time was Turtle Thomas who son liked a lot, however, it was for geographical reasons that he didn't even accept an OV.
I am going to give a shout out to Clemson's new pitching coach, Andrew See. This guy is really very very good. He was Monte Lee's first and only choice as his pitching coach. Duke's ERA was top notch in the ACC while he was there.
My son was recruited by Coach See but never got the chance to play for him before he departed. It appeared that he was good at getting the most out of players. IMO, getting the job at Clemson speaks to his ability.
Coach See did an excellent job with a pitching staff that no one ever thought could get it done.
He also did a great job of keeping the guys healthy.
Take it from a Dad who was trying to find the Holy Grail of Pitching Coaches/programs for my son (among other things), the words Slotty posted are unfortunately accurate.
You can have one of the best PC's that swears to you he is not leaving, only to be gone after you have committed. If your lucky, the Head Coach and or overall program might still be good. However you might be in a situation we were in on several occasions.
For example, the first college we were going to send my son to had a good PC and he (as the recruiting coordinator) was in the process of putting together both an athletic & academic scholarship number. We were only going to get a small athletic number, but had hoped my sons good grades would get enough to where we could afford to send him. Long story short, a lot of time passed during the process, then we didn't hear from the PC for a while. When I called to find out what was going on, the HC said the PC had taken another job. He said he was aware my son was recruited by the PC, but that all the money was now gone for the year. Worse, the academic offer was a decent one, but expired when it languished with the PC before he left. So he would have a spot on the roster, but no money at all. The school was too expensive, so that was that. I would mention the coaches name in this thread, because he is a very good PC, but I am pissed off enough at him not to give him any props.
We eventually decided on another D1 program, but when my son arrived on campus, the PC had left already, and the new PC was from an unheralded D2. 
We naturally were very disappointed, but what can you do.
Anyway, throughout our Odyssey, we encountered other situations like this, both on our end and also hearing other parents similar stories. My son went to 3 differnt schools, and every one had at least one coach leave. Coaches will come and go, sometimes like vagabonds that hop a train never to be seen again. One great one is going to be in his 3rd program in as many years (details below).
As to the theme of the thread, many good to great PC's have been mentioned. If you get into a program where the HC has a pitching background, plus you have a great PC too boot, you increase the odds of not being left without any quality development so long as at least one stays.
Wes Johnson was with DBU in 2014, and had 6 of the pitchers on his staff get drafted. I wanted to send my son there, but couldn't work out the NCAA transfer credit requirements. Still, Wes left for MSU anyway, so I might be in jail for murder if that had happened to us again. Anyway, he did very well at MSU, having another 6 guys get drafted, with many crediting him for improving their games. However I recently heard he is leaving after one year to be the PC at Arkansas. So if you want your son to get some great teaching in the art of pitching, look into sending him to Arkansas. He will get at least one year with Wes Johnson. 
Let me see if I can get through this without anyone feeling slighted or insulted.
Folks, I am sure throughout your careers you have made career moves and decisions based on what would be best for your families. Guess what, coaches do the same thing! They have families just like you all do.
I have said over and over,choose a program where your son will earn his degree and enjoy being part of a team. Do not choose a program thinking that your son will not have a coaching change at some point, especially if you are hoping to get your son into one of those top programs. As more and more coaches reach an age where they realize its a young mans game, where more and more ADs will be expecting better team records, changes are going to occur, whether you like it or not. Excellent assistant coaches will leave good programs to go to better programs or become HC, the ultimate career goal for all coaches. This can happen at any level. I do not believe that players earn any rights to make a change if the coacing staff does. This creates loss of credits and also, many realize the grass isnt always greener on the other side.
We felt the same way you all did and so did son about the coaches leaving, however if Kevin O'Sullivan had left, son would have been fine. He loved where he chose to go and he loved his teammates. It was a good fit. He had pro ability, there was no question he would be drafted, some of you are so hung up on your sons going somewhere so he will be drafted someday, is not how you should approach the recruiting process. If your son shows that pro ability it doesnt matter. Last weekend I saw a Marlin ML reliever, throw 98 every pitch. A 16 th round pick, he went to, get this, not UF, not FSU, not UM but North Florida. Imagine that!
I applaud the folks who understand and accept what programs would be a better fit, unlike folks that dont get that its best to be a big fish in a small pond rather than the other way around.
As far as the dig on a D2 pitching coach, there are plenty of folks here who have sent their sons or have sons playing in that level, who might take exception to such remarks.
Parents, help your sons to make the right decision, regardless, stop moving them around, because before you know it, instead of taking 4 years to graduate, it might take 6 because of credits lost. In the end that will cost you a lot more money.
Be smart folks.
JMO
My son is on his 3rd PC and he is a rising college sophomore. Yes, Johnson was #2. And he is/was okay with all three. They all bring/brought different attributes to the table. Before he committed to MSU, we discussed the possibility of Butch Thompson leaving. The way that we were able to reconcile it in our mind was if Butch left, then the odds were good that another quality coach would be hired. Once we came to terms with that thought, then the rest just fell into place. On a side note, on the morning that my son committed, I spoke with Butch before he committed and expressed my concern about Butch leaving. He assured me that he had no intention of leaving and I believe he was sincere about it. I/we do not have harbor bad feelings about him leaving nor Johnson leaving. Our situation may be unique, idk. It helps that the HC has remained constant. If my son was position player and the HC left, then that might possibly give me heartburn.
I think that I disagree with TPM about players being able to leave. I think they should be able to without sitting out a year, etc BUT I also think that if it were allowed that many would rue that decision for some of the very reasons that TPM espoused. Maybe the rule is designed to protect us from ourself.
Ps: Three other PC's, at D1 colleges that recruited my son, left for promotions so had he gone elsewhere, his PC might have been gone from there too
RedFishFool posted:My son is on his 3rd PC and he is a rising college sophomore. Yes, Johnson was #2. And he is/was okay with all three.
On a side note, on the morning that my son committed, I spoke with Butch before he committed and expressed my concern about Butch leaving. He assured me that he had no intention of leaving
Maybe the rule is designed to protect us from ourself.
Ps: Three other PC's, at D1 colleges that recruited my son, left for promotions so had he gone elsewhere, his PC might have been gone from there too
I cannot speak intelligently about Thompson, as I am not familiar with him. However, your son was very lucky to have had Johnson as his replacement. Unlike my sons situation, you at least got a PC with a solid background and reputation. My son explained how on their first day with the new PC, he spent most of the 2 hour practice discussing things like how the pitchers would wear their socks. Few of the pitchers ever warmed up to this guy, and felt he was doing them more harm than good. This coach is no longer with that program, nor any program for that matter.
Regarding coaches assuring players/parents they are staying, it is only as good as their word with no recourse. This can of course be a problem once your son is committed because all the leverage/rules favor the college, not the players. If the program suffers because of coaching changes, so do the players and their potential/future. If they want to leave, it can be a financial burden on the parents, not to mention penalties like having to sit out a year when transferring. Yet many coaches seem to be on the move, even when the move is lateral, not a promotion. So the rules do not protect us from ourselves, rather they impede choice. Frankly the NCAA is facing some challenges brought upon itself for having stacked the deck in favor of the schools rather than the kids. Their monopolistic rules have caused lawsuits which may turn amateur athletics upside down. So while I do not personally believe players should be paid, many of the restrictive rules imposed by the NCAA have led to people being fed up with their draconian methods of controlling athletes choices.
As to your last point with other PC coaches having moved on in other programs recruiting your son, it is a far too common experience many people face. It seems to be worse in college baseball, but I am not really sure why. A well respected coach who owned and ran an academy with top flight coaching for close to 40 years, said baseball coaches tended to be some of the most flighty of any profession he was aware of. I've been meaning to look him up to see if he ever came to a conclusion as to why he felt that way. He obviously had a wealth of experience dealing with hundreds of coaches over the decades, but he never articulated what he believed the reason/s was.
BTW - Just to add to the current list of current top PC's, Kuhn of Virginia is top shelf not only as a coach, but also is a very decent guy. The same is true of Arteaga of Miami. Granted those are perennial top 10 programs, and it is in part because of the stability of the coaching staff being there for 10+ years.
To pursue better salary and benefits and exposure is more or less the reason for coaching movement either up or lateral.
I do admit that a stable coaching staff adds to success but not always is the case.
Players can transfer anytime they wish, just not to another D1 program. There are reasons why, the main reason is because the players are student athletes not athlete students.
By the way Vector, there are many good solid D2 programs in your home state.
Keep in mind those players attending and being offered programs such as UVA or UM are the cream of the crop in their class as was RFF son who chose MSU. However, as we see despite being top tier programs coaching changes do occur. The success or failure usually remains on the HCs shoulders and in most cases HCs do remain constant. There are changes occuring now with younger guys replacing retiring coaches. Make decisions based on the school and degree earned, not who will make your son the next first rounder.
Sometimes change is good, as seen at Clemson this past year. All paid coaches received nice raises for their efforts. Smart AD. Pay your staff well for their efforts and they will show loyalty to your program.
THE reason why coaches make changes more....$$$$$$. You cant deny anyone that opportunity.
JMO
RedFishFool posted:I think that I disagree with TPM about players being able to leave. I think they should be able to without sitting out a year, etc BUT I also think that if it were allowed that many would rue that decision for some of the very reasons that TPM espoused. Maybe the rule is designed to protect us from ourself.
If the transfer penalty is indeed designed to protect players, it would be the first NCAA rule I've encountered with such a purpose.
Swampboy posted:RedFishFool posted:I think that I disagree with TPM about players being able to leave. I think they should be able to without sitting out a year, etc BUT I also think that if it were allowed that many would rue that decision for some of the very reasons that TPM espoused. Maybe the rule is designed to protect us from ourself.
If the transfer penalty is indeed designed to protect players, it would be the first NCAA rule I've encountered with such a purpose.
I dont see how allowing players to transfer to another D1 because the coach left serves anyone a positive purpose. Does anyone feel that the coach bringing some of his former players from his prior program to the new program helps those at his new program, where would he go. This all sounds good but it never really works well for anyone.
There may be more circumstances that I can understand but not because thr coach left.
JMO
I can't comment about D1 PC's in the SE but if you want to know JUCO PC's that develop pitchers consistently, I have a few comments. Obvious choices would be Jeff Johnson at Chipola, Doug Martin at NW Fl State. Both National contenders year-in year-out, strong programs, excellent facilities and support staff. Another from the same conference that doesn't get the ink he deserves is Mike McCleod at Tallahassee CC. Prom a pitching perspective, he's forgotten more than most PC's know....even at the D1 level. Word of the wise - best be a tough kid. You will find out where you sit with Mc.....in the 1st 3 minutes. Coach Thomas at Chatt Valley also does a great job developing pitchers. A couple to stay away from, IMO. Mackey Sasser at Wallace-Dothan and Kandler at Gulf Coast. Just because you've been doing it a while, doesn't mean you're doing it right. Just my .02
TPM posted:There are reasons why, the main reason is because the players are student athletes not athlete students.
I agree there are reasons that athletes should not be allowed to transfer simply because the coach left. However, this is definitely a poor argument for why. Any student can transfer schools as they wish, so what would be the basis of this argument.
The hard truth is that people change jobs. Especially if they achieve success in one position and are offered the opportunity at a better one. Coaching is a job like any other. If athletes were allowed to transfer every time a coaching change happens, there would be little stability in college sports. Despite the NCAA professing to base their rules and regulations on the best interest of the student, this is definitely a rule that only serves the best interest of their membership and, in this isolated instance, it's an interest that needs to be served.
As to coaches saying they will be around...what are they supposed to tell a recruit? "I'll be here unless State offers to double my salary?" No. Recruits have to be smarter than to even ask that question.
roothog66 posted:As to coaches saying they will be around...what are they supposed to tell a recruit? "I'll be here unless State offers to double my salary?" No. Recruits have to be smarter than to even ask that question.
Right.
Immutable facts of baseball life: The more successful the coach, the more likely he'll have better opportunities. The less successful the coach, the more likely he'll be forced out.
There's no purpose in asking coaches where they are along this spectrum.
Prospective recruits can assess the history, success, and stability of the programs they are considering and form their own judgments.
Swampboy posted:If the transfer penalty is indeed designed to protect players, it would be the first NCAA rule I've encountered with such a purpose.
I fully agree.We have had parents here, some with very successful results, that knew they had to move their kids if they were to be developed properly. So they were forced to do things like a 4-2-4 transfer or division hop just to avoid being stuck in a poor program. Heck I know one father who specifically turned down a full ride for his son because the program was known as a pitchers wasteland. Good healthy pitchers went in, but few came out. So they picked another school not far away. As bad luck would have it, the PC from the school he avoided transferred to the school his son went to. He wasn't about to have his sons arm ruined, so they left and it resulted in a lot of frustration and cost.
roothog66 posted:
As to coaches saying they will be around...what are they supposed to tell a recruit? "I'll be here unless State offers to double my salary?" No. Recruits have to be smarter than to even ask that question.
I was prepared to agree with most of your post until the last part. Most parents are not savvy when it comes to modern day baseball scholarships, NCAA rules, etc. This even includes fathers who went through it themselves back in the day. There are also plenty of parents that never picked up a ball, and have no clue how the cards are stacked against the athletes, and in favor of the institutions. So if a parent were to ask a coach that came recommended if he was going to stay (at least for that year), that is a pro-active thing to do. Then the parent has to hope the word and integrity of the coach is sound. I am not talking about some unforeseen issue where the coach needs to move for family illness or the wife's unexpected career opportunities. Instead I am speaking about a coach that will look a parent in the eye, say "I'm not going anywhere", knowing full well he plans to leave that season.
Don't get me wrong, as not all coaches lack integrity. I'm sure there are more that are honest than are not. Some will come right out and tell you they have accepted an offer, or are waiting on one that they will take if they can. We actually had run into a couple that either said don't come here because of me, since I will be leaving, or let us know where they were headed in case we wanted to consider that school. Heck one HC even said to us he wanted out because of far too many legacy players, and poor support for the baseball program. So he didn't want us coming there. He was waiting on word whether he would get the job at another place, and he wanted my son to pitch for him if he got that job. When the coach wasn't selected, he wished us well, and we didn't fall into a mess at that school. Needless to say those are the type of coaches you respect and hope others would be just as honest.
The changing of coaches seems to be never ending. Since committing 2016 son has dodged several offers to his future HC who has decided he wants to continue what he started and stay put. PC that recruited him and was on staff when he committed is now at his second school since departing. One move for an obvious step up and the next move so he could take his family back home. Hard to argue with him in either case.
If you are a pitcher and the main pitching guy is not the HC (Florida's O'Sullivan, A&M Childress, Auburn's Thompson, etc.) from our experience I would worry more about your relationship with the HC and his history of attracting top assistant coaches more than anything.
In son's case the new PC seems to be a perfect fit for son. He goes to campus for good in less than two weeks so we shall see.
My friend's son is going to UT. After talking to him yesterday I am pretty sure the new staff wouldn't know his son if he passed them on the street. Not their fault at all given the circumstances but I wouldn't want my son trading places with him.
There is no shortage of outstanding college pitching coaches. There can be a big difference in their philosophies, though. And especially when it comes to arm care.
Also, there are some great pitching coaches in smaller programs, including DIII.
Think about this... Your son is a definite pro prospect. I know I was extra careful when one of them was on our team. There have been coaches that will ride these type pitchers to win a championship. And there are coaches that will use them wisely understanding it is important to help protect them. I understand that arm injury is not something you want for any of your pitchers. But there really is a difference when one of them is risking a possible fortune pitching in the future. So the risk is not exactly equal from one pitcher to the next. That said, keeping an entire pitching staff healthy and effective looks good on a pitching coaches resume.
Here is are some more questions... Are there better pitching coaches in college or pro ball? Which is the safest environment to develop in? Do more pro pitchers that sign out of HS or college end up with arm problems?
I haven't researched this completely, but if one were to make a list of the very best pitchers in baseball, wonder how many arm injuries with those signing out of HS vs College? Even if you knew that, not sure it would prove anything.
I do know there is less emphasis on winning and more on development in the minor leagues than there is at the higher levels of college baseball. That might be the biggest reason for finding the best possible pitching coach if you're going to college.
Most coaches at the higher levels of college have a history. With a little work you can see what has happened. Pretend you are responsible for hiring one. Who would you have on your list? If one of those guys wants your son, that might be the best place. But once again, there are a lot of outstanding pitching coaches at every level. And there are some to shy away from.
Vector posted:Swampboy posted:If the transfer penalty is indeed designed to protect players, it would be the first NCAA rule I've encountered with such a purpose.
I fully agree.We have had parents here, some with very successful results, that knew they had to move their kids if they were to be developed properly. So they were forced to do things like a 4-2-4 transfer or division hop just to avoid being stuck in a poor program. Heck I know one father who specifically turned down a full ride for his son because the program was known as a pitchers wasteland. Good healthy pitchers went in, but few came out. So they picked another school not far away. As bad luck would have it, the PC from the school he avoided transferred to the school his son went to. He wasn't about to have his sons arm ruined, so they left and it resulted in a lot of frustration and cost.roothog66 posted:
As to coaches saying they will be around...what are they supposed to tell a recruit? "I'll be here unless State offers to double my salary?" No. Recruits have to be smarter than to even ask that question.
I was prepared to agree with most of your post until the last part. Most parents are not savvy when it comes to modern day baseball scholarships, NCAA rules, etc. This even includes fathers who went through it themselves back in the day. There are also plenty of parents that never picked up a ball, and have no clue how the cards are stacked against the athletes, and in favor of the institutions. So if a parent were to ask a coach that came recommended if he was going to stay (at least for that year), that is a pro-active thing to do. Then the parent has to hope the word and integrity of the coach is sound. I am not talking about some unforeseen issue where the coach needs to move for family illness or the wife's unexpected career opportunities. Instead I am speaking about a coach that will look a parent in the eye, say "I'm not going anywhere", knowing full well he plans to leave that season.
Don't get me wrong, as not all coaches lack integrity. I'm sure there are more that are honest than are not. Some will come right out and tell you they have accepted an offer, or are waiting on one that they will take if they can. We actually had run into a couple that either said don't come here because of me, since I will be leaving, or let us know where they were headed in case we wanted to consider that school. Heck one HC even said to us he wanted out because of far too many legacy players, and poor support for the baseball program. So he didn't want us coming there. He was waiting on word whether he would get the job at another place, and he wanted my son to pitch for him if he got that job. When the coach wasn't selected, he wished us well, and we didn't fall into a mess at that school. Needless to say those are the type of coaches you respect and hope others would be just as honest.
I have never heard such stories in all the years I have been here. How many coaches did you have to speak to on behalf of your son?
Vector posted:Swampboy posted:If the transfer penalty is indeed designed to protect players, it would be the first NCAA rule I've encountered with such a purpose.
I fully agree.We have had parents here, some with very successful results, that knew they had to move their kids if they were to be developed properly. So they were forced to do things like a 4-2-4 transfer or division hop just to avoid being stuck in a poor program. Heck I know one father who specifically turned down a full ride for his son because the program was known as a pitchers wasteland. Good healthy pitchers went in, but few came out. So they picked another school not far away. As bad luck would have it, the PC from the school he avoided transferred to the school his son went to. He wasn't about to have his sons arm ruined, so they left and it resulted in a lot of frustration and cost.roothog66 posted:
As to coaches saying they will be around...what are they supposed to tell a recruit? "I'll be here unless State offers to double my salary?" No. Recruits have to be smarter than to even ask that question.
I was prepared to agree with most of your post until the last part. Most parents are not savvy when it comes to modern day baseball scholarships, NCAA rules, etc. This even includes fathers who went through it themselves back in the day. There are also plenty of parents that never picked up a ball, and have no clue how the cards are stacked against the athletes, and in favor of the institutions. So if a parent were to ask a coach that came recommended if he was going to stay (at least for that year), that is a pro-active thing to do. Then the parent has to hope the word and integrity of the coach is sound. I am not talking about some unforeseen issue where the coach needs to move for family illness or the wife's unexpected career opportunities. Instead I am speaking about a coach that will look a parent in the eye, say "I'm not going anywhere", knowing full well he plans to leave that season.
Don't get me wrong, as not all coaches lack integrity. I'm sure there are more that are honest than are not. Some will come right out and tell you they have accepted an offer, or are waiting on one that they will take if they can. We actually had run into a couple that either said don't come here because of me, since I will be leaving, or let us know where they were headed in case we wanted to consider that school. Heck one HC even said to us he wanted out because of far too many legacy players, and poor support for the baseball program. So he didn't want us coming there. He was waiting on word whether he would get the job at another place, and he wanted my son to pitch for him if he got that job. When the coach wasn't selected, he wished us well, and we didn't fall into a mess at that school. Needless to say those are the type of coaches you respect and hope others would be just as honest.
This is where it gets funny because of differing ideas of what represents integrity. You use examples in your post to convey your ideas of honest coaches with integrity. Strangely, I find those actions to be completely without integrity and quite dishonest. Telling a kid don't come here? Talking trash on the program at the school that's still signing your paychecks while recruiting him for his next job on that school's dime? No, that's not honesty and integrity. Here is what I consider honesty and integrity in that situation. My son has been in constant contact with an RC at a major D1. They have a good relationship and talk frequently - he always answered the phone when son called. However, recently a head coaching job came open at another major D1. This RC was the leading candidate. He basically stopped recruiting during the process. I think when a coach knows he's going elsewhere are expects to get a new job, this is an honorable way to go.
Thank you Root. According to my understanding D1 coaches are not allowed to recruit in between jobs. Just as D1 players cannot look for another opportunity while still on the roster.
And trashing a program is completely without integrity.
But I am not surprised, sounds like the Vector that has been gone for awhile and suddenly shows up!
