The wizard — Rob Walton
http://www.okstate.com/coaches...87&path=baseball
http://newsok.com/article/5504857
Another great one Bolts but because of that seems to be in the HC mix for job openings every year. I would be shocked if he isn't a HC in the next four years. If he isn't it would likely be his choice IMO
TPM posted:Swampboy posted:RedFishFool posted:I think that I disagree with TPM about players being able to leave. I think they should be able to without sitting out a year, etc BUT I also think that if it were allowed that many would rue that decision for some of the very reasons that TPM espoused. Maybe the rule is designed to protect us from ourself.
If the transfer penalty is indeed designed to protect players, it would be the first NCAA rule I've encountered with such a purpose.
I dont see how allowing players to transfer to another D1 because the coach left serves anyone a positive purpose. Does anyone feel that the coach bringing some of his former players from his prior program to the new program helps those at his new program, where would he go. This all sounds good but it never really works well for anyone.
There may be more circumstances that I can understand but not because thr coach left.
JMO
If the coach leaves, the player should be allowed to leave. I know of many situations where the new coach comes on campus, and the player does not fit the mold for that particular coach. As such, I don't believe it is fair for the coach to give him his walking papers, and then the player has to sit out a year. It's not right!
What if the rule was the kid could transfer without penalty except for transferring to the coach's new school? Stops a coach from bringing kids from his old team, but doesn't penalize the kid by losing a year or making him stay where he's unhappy.
It just seems like more rules and exceptions to the rules. The school pays for the scholarship, in really big air quotes the scholarship is for the kid to go to the school, not to play baseball. The school gets the baseball player, the baseball player gets the education. Well, you know, in theory.
I was kind of struck with that thought at about 3:00 am last night when I turned on PBS and watched "The Boy's of '36" about the University of Washington's rowing team that won the olympics in 1936. Most struck by the background of the kids coming out of the great depression. That and 70,000 people used to watch college rowing?
BackstopDad32 posted:Another great one Bolts but because of that seems to be in the HC mix for job openings every year. I would be shocked if he isn't a HC in the next four years. If he isn't it would likely be his choice IMO
He's been a HC for 9-years... A Gold Medal winning Team USA HC too... been there done that... He's a Cowboy... Very low-key man...
Go44dad posted:It just seems like more rules and exceptions to the rules. The school pays for the scholarship, in really big air quotes the scholarship is for the kid to go to the school, not to play baseball. The school gets the baseball player, the baseball player gets the education. Well, you know, in theory.
I was kind of struck with that thought at about 3:00 am last night when I turned on PBS and watched "The Boy's of '36" about the University of Washington's rowing team that won the olympics in 1936. Most struck by the background of the kids coming out of the great depression. That and 70,000 people used to watch college rowing?
I sometimes think folks dont get it. You got it. The players commitment is to the school.
FWIW, the relationship between player and coach changes when the recruit becomes the player. There are lots of players who dont always see eye to eye with the guy who either recruited him or the HC.
In all seriousness, transfering several times doesnt help the player graduate when he is supposed to. The player has to have earned a certain amount of credits to be eligible to remain on the team as well as GPA.
My comments are specifically made towards D1 transfers. If the player hasnt set foot on campus yet, by all means do what you have to do.
This is a good discussion for those going through the process. Make sure that your players love everything about where they will attend school, not just the coaching staff.
rynoattack posted:If the coach leaves, the player should be allowed to leave. I know of many situations where the new coach comes on campus, and the player does not fit the mold for that particular coach. As such, I don't believe it is fair for the coach to give him his walking papers, and then the player has to sit out a year. It's not right!
I agree.
When you decide on a particular program you do the best you can to make sure it is the right fit for your kid education wise and if they are an athlete, from that side as well. The right coach and program can make all as big difference as to whether a player develops, vs. gets hurt, vs. languishes.
The example I gave where the D1 program brought in an unheralded PC, he was not good, and within a few years is not even coaching little league. How was that fair to the pitchers at that school who most of which were stuck instead of being able to transfer without penalty.
Many a new coaching staff comes in and decides the previous coaches picks wont work for him, so the kid gets their walking papers with no recourse. Then the kid still needs to sit a year if they stay within the same division. Schools should not be able to have their cake and eat it to.
When it comes to PC's, if you have a guy who has a rep of overworking his staff, why risk a permanent injury or face having to sit out a year, and all that goes along with it. Just like great PC's who can come in like Wes Johnson and improve a staff, so too can duds be brought in that sets players back. Putting the athletes at the mercy of a poor hiring decision with no recourse, is not right no matter how you slice it.
There are already protections for schools, like preventing the kid from going to a competitor within the same conference. This seems reasonable. However to give almost total control to a program that might have sold the parents/kids a false bill of goods, is what has the NCAA facing a tumultuous future.
There seems to be some confusion here, a player can transfer but just not to another D1 program.
However, there is a belief that players should have a right to do so, but IMO only if the player is asked to leave. But then my opinion is that he is probably asking the player for a reason, not just because he wants to. And its based on production. I remember the outrage years ago when Kevin O'Sullivan let a player go who had 2 redshirt years and never played his 3rd year. This was just when the new roster and transfer rules would be coming into effect. He helped the player find a more suitable program without penalty. Meanwhile, its apparent in his case that he understands how to build a winning program and thats by recruiting 35 players who will all contribute in one way or another.
I am not aware of D1 coaches who turn over complete rosters, I believe that this is an exaggeration. I am aware of coaches who will make adjustments by cleaning house of players that have been kept on rosters who probably didnt belong there in the first place. This is a harsh reality but college baseball is a business. I do believe that most really good new incoming coaches believe that the players are innocent bystanders and unless you can support your accusations, go ahead. And unfortunetly coaches do abuse young arms. But I find folks dont care until injuries occur.
This was a very poor practice that was common many years ago, however coaches do have reputations to uphold. However, you better believe now that after the first year coaches will bring in lots of players to compete for roster spots, so be prepared.
Also, I dont believe any decent coach would tell any player not to come to the program he would be leaving. I just think these comments come from someone who is frustrated that their player is not in a place he thinks he should be.
My stance is that if a new coach comes on, the player should be able to transfer without penalty. Why should the new coach be able to tell you that you aren't going to play, and essentially boot you out, and you not be able to transfer to another D-1? By the way, the example I am using is of a fairly highly rated Freshman at a Pac XII school, so I am sure there would have been other D-1 options for him. He signed in November, coach fired in June/July before Freshman year, played fall, and new coach said you're not going to play here til maybe Junior year, brought in JC guys, and told the kid he would be best to transfer to a JC. To me, the kid should be allowed to transfer to a D-1 without penalty.
So, for those who believe a coaching change should allow consequence-free transfers - and I completely understand your position - would this be just head coach changes? Or would this include assistants? I ask, since the conversation started with pitching coaches.
roothog66 posted:So, for those who believe a coaching change should allow consequence-free transfers - and I completely understand your position - would this be just head coach changes? Or would this include assistants? I ask, since the conversation started with pitching coaches.
Honestly, I have never quite thought of it in that way. I've always considered the HC, because it is his program. I do think that is a great question, but I think it should apply to the HC only.
My initial thoughts:
If primary position is Pitcher then PC; if primary position is not pitcher, then HC. Could be denoted on NLI which one the player chooses.
In most cases when a new HC coach comes into a program he brings his own people with him. Since the HC has the say in who comes into a program I believe the player should get a non restricted free transfer
roothog66 posted:So, for those who believe a coaching change should allow consequence-free transfers - and I completely understand your position - would this be just head coach changes? Or would this include assistants? I ask, since the conversation started with pitching coaches.
Let's start with awarding penalty-free status to the transfers that should be the least controversial: players with satisfactory conduct and academic performance who were recruited by a former coach and who lose their scholarships or are cut within a year of the arrival of a new head coach.
Roothog66
This is where it gets funny because of differing ideas of what represents integrity. You use examples in your post to convey your ideas of honest coaches with integrity. Strangely, I find those actions to be completely without integrity and quite dishonest. Telling a kid don't come here? Talking trash on the program at the school that's still signing your paychecks while recruiting him for his next job on that school's dime? No, that's not honesty and integrity. Here is what I consider honesty and integrity in that situation. My son has been in constant contact with an RC at a major D1. They have a good relationship and talk frequently - he always answered the phone when son called. However, recently a head coaching job came open at another major D1. This RC was the leading candidate. He basically stopped recruiting during the process. I think when a coach knows he's going elsewhere are expects to get a new job, this is an honorable way to go.
I see your point, and from the schools/AD's perspective, that coach likely wouldn't be acting with integrity. However, from a parents/players point of view, he gave us an insight we never would have had otherwise.
So while the program might suffer with a coach looking to bolt and forewarning kids/parents of the programs pitfalls, how else would someone find out until after it was too late?
rynoattack posted:My stance is that if a new coach comes on, the player should be able to transfer without penalty. Why should the new coach be able to tell you that you aren't going to play, and essentially boot you out, and you not be able to transfer to another D-1?
I agree.
We have all actually read about or know parents/players in that very situation. Probably one of the worst cases I remember reading about on this forum was a senior who had a new coach come in, and dump the kid who had been with the program the previous years. This meant that the poor kid who contributed to the school prior to the new coaches arrival was, told your last year is gone, too bad for you. When I read that story it practically made me sick.
There is definitely something wrong with rules supposedly designed to "protect the kids", that would allow for such things to happen.
roothog66 posted:So, for those who believe a coaching change should allow consequence-free transfers - and I completely understand your position - would this be just head coach changes? Or would this include assistants? I ask, since the conversation started with pitching coaches.
Good question.
IMO if the HC changes, that alone should make the option to transfer open without penality. After all, he can make virtually any changes he wants, including getting rid of the staff he inherited.
Now, since my son is a pitcher only, I know the hitting coach/instructor leaving wont have any effect on him. The same is true in reverse where the position players wont be effected by a change in a PC. So it would be nice to tailor the system in a manner based on the players position. HC and/or PC for pitchers, HC and/or hitting coach for position players.
RedFishFool posted:My initial thoughts:
If primary position is Pitcher then PC; if primary position is not pitcher, then HC. Could be denoted on NLI which one the player chooses.
I see we think alike (along with a few others), and you beat me to the punch on your idea. 
Though I like your idea about a designation on an NLI, the logistics would be fairly simple even for those who do not sign one.
By the way, there is a nice picture of Robert Woodard with Alan Jaeger and Eric Cressey on twitter.
rynoattack posted:My stance is that if a new coach comes on, the player should be able to transfer without penalty. Why should the new coach be able to tell you that you aren't going to play, and essentially boot you out, and you not be able to transfer to another D-1? By the way, the example I am using is of a fairly highly rated Freshman at a Pac XII school, so I am sure there would have been other D-1 options for him. He signed in November, coach fired in June/July before Freshman year, played fall, and new coach said you're not going to play here til maybe Junior year, brought in JC guys, and told the kid he would be best to transfer to a JC. To me, the kid should be allowed to transfer to a D-1 without penalty.
The scenerio you described isnt just something that happens when a new coach arrives.
My suggestion, let the buyer be aware. Yes thats be aware, this happens.
When a coach from one program interviews for another, his HC or AD has given permission or is fully aware of the situation. The coach more than likely stopped recruiting because that data base belongs to the program not the coach. If the program he goes to has your son on the database, its good, but if not he has to begin the process all over again. So dont sit around wondering why your son who was so son eagerly being pursued hasnt heard from the coach. If he took a position at a better program, keep in mind his player priorities have changed. More than likely your son isnt a good fit for where he left to. This is reality in recruiting.
That is how its supposed to work. Coaches leaving are not supposed to bring their former players with them, there actually is a process that should occur. Remember, a player from one program needs a release to speak to a coach from another program. Anything less than that is not allowable by NCAA rules.
Reality is that moves for many of these coaches means a lot more money. No D1 coach is going to pass up on a chance to help make things better for his family. You all would do the same.
Another reality is that your player signed his NLI stating he would play for that program, not the coach. If you didnt sign an NLI basically you could be SOL. Make sure your son loves that place. If he signed because you all felt that coach will make your son a superstar, more than likely its not gonna happen unless you showed pro potential beforehand. JMO
Can the new coach let you go, yes. Is it fair, no. Should a player be allowed to transfer to a new D1 right away, no. Is the player more likely to be successful somewhere else, more than likely yes.
Keep in mind this works both ways. Players make commitments to programs and coaches. Then for maybe 6-12 months some entertain getting drafted. Can anyone blame a player for signing a pro contact and not keeping their word? No.
Why should it be any different for a coach?
great thread, I don't post much but do read. This info applies now, son is being recruited by several major D1's. As a soph LHP at a JC, he is still growing and like many here, trying to find the right fit does require some effort. If this helps, do some research yourself on the specific program pre-visit and/or in my son's case if your JC coach is well connected and you have options look at pitching stats in depth historically through the program to get a sense of how programs operate. How long has the HC been w/this program, is the HC or PC trending up. The website of the school keep very detailed records, box scores and the like, if you notice patterns with IP's and pitch counts you can find answers sometimes. If your kid played high level club don't be afraid to reach out to a friend of a friend or former player if it's available. They are more than happy to help. Be objective at what you hear and understand the your kids limitations when you evaluate where to commit. Ask questions, will you change my kids arm slot, does the HC call the game, who makes those decisions, the HC or PC etc, etc. In my kids case he will have 2 years left as this journey continues, he as less margin for error at the next level and as he continues to grow physically still finding the right fit with proper and reasonable coaching is critical.
