Best Level For A H.S. Freshman Who Knows He Will Be Playing (Somewhere)

First, as you stated, it is not up to you.  Ultimately, I think it matters zero where he plays his freshmen year.

I can't say what's best for your son but mine played V, JV, & Developmental team as a freshman. He only got a few innings/ABs on the varsity squad but was expected to suit up and be present at every game. His situation was that two seniors were graduating at his position and the coach wanted him around the varsity players and environment as much as possible since he would be stepping in as a starter for the next three seasons (presumably). In retrospect, I believe this was very beneficial to him.

If he is capable of playing JV then play JV and hope for some time on the varsity....even if it's just to ride along to a couple games and get a feel for what it's like (bigger crowds, better pitching, older kids, etc).  If he has hopes to play after HS there's no reason to play freshman just "to be the star of the team".  In most cases, if he's been playing travel ball at a decent level, his 13U/14U travel team will be better than a lot of freshman/JV teams depending on where you live and the quality of HS baseball in the area

Too many variables to say, including coaches, programs, and your son's makeup.  They also include a lot of off-the-field stuff  that a freshman could be more exposed to with an older group of players.

Even if he doesn't play a lot, one thing I like about a freshman playing up is the he sees much better pitching every day in practice and more serious competition overall, both in games and for playing time.

Son was a 4 year varsity player and he is not playing at the next level for various reasons. So I would say it does not matter. The focus should be academics and player development and not worry about what level he is playing at.   

I haven't seen a freshman play Varsity at any of the HS's in our area.  Work on development and be determined to have an impact on whatever team the coaches put him on.  His season performance will be noted and if he's good enough and there's a need on Varsity he could make Varsity as a Soph.  Your son needs to learn to listen and go with the flow no matter how good he is.

We had curious thoughts like you are having and realized we didn't have any control on which team my son would be on.  But we could control having a good attitude and going with the flow of coaching decisions.  Son went in determined to work on development and being a good teammate.

Son had a blast playing on the freshman team, and he shined.  He then started Varsity as a sophomore.  He started every game from sophomore  thru senior year.   I think the lessons he learned from freshman year also cultivated some leadership qualities and helped position him to Varsity Captain.    

His most challenging playing experience came from his summer club ball which played against the top teams in the country.  

Francis7 posted:

 

  Or, do you never wish away a chance to play varsity and add that “four year varsity member” to your recruiting profile?  

 

This will not matter one bit to any college coach.  The coaches are smart enough to know that playing Frosh, soph, JV, V is different from school to school and coach to coach.  What they care about is what can you do for them, not what have you done prior to getting there.

Francis7, "the best ideal slot for a player"...is where the COACH deems said player can be best utilized for the COACH'S program needs...could be JV, could be V or combination...

My son was a 4 yr V player, (All This, All That,, etc, etc)...Our position, as parents was that what happens "inside the white lines" is the Coaches responsibility. (barring abuse or injury) . My sons' was "make the most of any opportunity that comes"...

This is another one of the posts that I see differently Francis7, if your son is a position player or pitcher. A pitcher can be given a spot start for specific JV/V games and stay down as FR especially against rivals. A position player it's plain and simple.. the player needs repetitions in the field and ABs. It doesn't help "making varsity" if he'll sit the bench and play a few innings in games that are one-sided.

Ripken Fan posted:

This is another one of the posts that I see differently Francis7, if your son is a position player or pitcher. A pitcher can be given a spot start for specific JV/V games and stay down as FR especially against rivals. A position player it's plain and simple.. the player needs repetitions in the field and ABs. It doesn't help "making varsity" if he'll sit the bench and play a few innings in games that are one-sided.

Sent you PM

Ripken Fan posted:

It doesn't help "making varsity" if he'll sit the bench and play a few innings in games that are one-sided.

Yeah, I've got to disagree with this based on our experience. Being around the older players and seeing how the games are coached and flow helped my son in a big way but I think a lot of that had to do with him being a catcher.

I totally agree with earlier previous posters.  Four year V means ZERO to college recruiters unless it's the local guy who knows exactly what level of competition the HS plays at and that level is particularly high.  

To a HS program, the ideal player is one who both strives for lofty but attainable goals and embraces whatever role he is asked to fill in the present.  The coaches will let each player know what that role is and where.  There are benefits and pitfalls to each direction.  (The more recent disagreement here with the opinion of Tequila and Ripken is perfect example - they both have merit.)  Embrace the benefits and attack the role.  Work hard in a manner that will put you in the ready position of stepping into the next, bigger program role when the opportunity comes.  Be the teammate that is so important to program and team success.

Over the years, we have had some kids coming in as freshmen expressing their interest/intent to play V right away in various ways.  There have only been a few who have had the talent and maturity to match the particular needs of the program at that given time.  Those few were not only fortunate that the timing stars aligned but they were extremely driven hard workers, well beyond the efforts of other hard working program players.  A few others had matching talent, maturity and work ethic, just not at a time when the program had the need.

While it is important that the player strive for the next level, it is also important that he (and dad) don't get too far ahead of themselves.  Focus mostly on today and somewhat on the next step.  Don't worry yet about three steps down the road.  And, fully enjoy each step along the way.

BTW, the further he climbs the ladder, the more EVERYONE "was always an all-star".... a whole other topic 

HS ball is different.  There were kids who were cut from our freshman team, transferred to another school and started on varsity.  There is so much variation in talent that I don't think most college coaches factor it in much.  My son played on freshman team and had a blast and was a 2 way.  They would call him up in practices to pitch against varsity, and brought him up for the last few games that year.  Sophomore year he was on varsity and sat most of the time.  Pitched occasionally.  He asked to be on jv if he wasn't pitching and had a much better year after that.  I think he would be in the exact same spot whether he was on varsity both years or played with his friends.  He likes to play, so sitting on the bench killed him.  In terms of recruiting and being prepared, it made no difference either way.

My '22 is likely to play JV this spring; our returning '19 catcher is a D1 commit.  Agree with others that it doesn't really matter.  

The only four year V starters around here play for small programs. At larger schools;

-NO doubt D1'ers play V when they are sophomores.

-D3/Jucos play V  as Juniors.

-Non college players make V as Seniors.

There are always exceptions. 

I think the main thing is for your player to be at a level where he plays a lot. Being promoted, and being used only as a pinch runner/hitter/reliever/late inning glove/benchwarmer can kill a kid's love of the game. No 15 yr. old   wants to be sitting on a bench, and you develop nothing but splinters in your ass doing it.

Oh, and watch out if your kid is a star pitcher at the Freshman/sophomore level. That rib high 80 mph fastball that was blowing by 14-15yo's will get mashed by decent Varsity hitters. 

Agree that it is not up to the parent in any event, though it might be possible for the player(NOT the parent...EVER) to respectfully lobby the coaches for your player to play down a level(not up) in order to get playing time. They will often be sympathetic to a kid who wants to get better.

The only time you should open your yap as a parent is to ask if the team needs any non baseball help(i.e. announcing, fund raising, scoring, etc.) or if you suspect that something harmful(hazing or some sort of abuse) is happening to your child. 

BTW, my son will be a Freshman this year, and I've had another go though the whole deal. He is now playing college ball. In our school, the really talented Freshman play JV, not Varsity, but it also depends on other factors such as how strong the various classes are, and positional strength. I mean, if your son is a really good Freshman catcher, but there are two better ones in the upper grades, he's probably best off playing Freshman and getting lots of reps, rather than catching bullpens on the JV team.

   Our Sophomore teams are usually reserved for Sophomores only. 

57special posted:

The only four year V starters around here play for small programs. At larger schools;

-NO doubt D1'ers play V when they are sophomores.

-D3/Jucos play V  as Juniors.

-Non college players make V as Seniors.

There are always exceptions. 

 

 

I have to disagree here.  In certain areas things are different.  As I said earlier things very from school to school.  I know of a few schools that like to keep the classes together.  Especially with larger programs.  Around here we have a Frosh A team a Frosh B team. A Soph team; some schools have two Soph teams.  And a V/JV program.  At the V/JV level all of the players are technically on the V team but if they do not get significant playing time in the V games they get to play in the weekly JV game.  The weekly JV game is the second game of the weekend doubleheader.  

Nothing matches your chart above.  That is pretty normal around here. 

Francis,

Knowing where you're from I can tell you that JV isn't great in terms of competition and talent. It would be good to get reps and see live pitches, but the odds of your son seeing any pitchers 80mph+ on JV is going to be rare. I would want mine playing varsity. Getting used to the speed, the size and the routines of the older players would be more beneficial than killing 74mph fastballs. A different state like GA, CA, TX it would be different. While there is talent in the northeast, they just don't have the depth that they do in other states, making the lower levels of baseball not all that good. JV is fine as a freshman, but after that you really want to be on the varsity team

I just reread the OP and happened to notice this:

'There is no doubt that your son will make the freshmen baseball team and be one of the better players on the team.  Based on his level, the level of play, etc., this would not be challenging for him at all.  It's an extension of Little League and Middle School ball, basically, where he was always an All-Star.'

Francis57....has your son only played LL and MIddle School ball....or has he played on at least an average to above average travel ball team in the summer.  If he hasn't played travel I don't think you've probably got a real understanding of how much better kids his age are that have played travel in the summer.....vs kids who don't.  Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions, but if he's only played LL and Middle School, the fact that he was an All Star means nothing with regard to HS....especially if you're considering that he may be playing JV with kids 2, maybe even 3 years older than him. 

My son played varsity last year as a freshman, he had to earn his spot, and took a while for the coaches to trust him. He was lucky in that the team was mostly seniors. He learned a lot from those guys and their experiences, still keeps in touch with some of them. It was a small school, but he got to play in a city championship game, had a great ride, and learned some life lessons along the way. 

Francis, you’re concerning yourself with something that is completely out of your control. The only control your son has is putting his best foot forward. Ultimately, the coaching staff decides.

When my son was in 8th grade the rumbling started the best shortstop plays for the middle school. The varsity shortstop was having a rough year in the field. When parents made me aware of the noise I only responded, “One year at a time.”

While in 8th grade my son was invited to a couple of varsity practices. I believe it was done to scare the current junior shortstop into working harder. I ask my son how he thought he compared. He said the current shortstop was a lot stronger.

Freshman year my son was still on varsity with two cuts to go. I was asked if I thought my son would make varsity. I responded it’s not about making varsity especially with a bad team. It’s about being at the right level to develop and compete for the following year. I didn’t want him to struggle on varsity. He was 5’11” 135. He dominated JV. What really prepared him for varsity was playing 16u the summer after freshman year. 16u travel is high school ball quality without the top 17u studs. 

The next year he became the first soph to start opening day in six years. The program turned the corner. The next ee years were a second place and two conference championships. The previous shortstop went on to play outfield at a D1. 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

 

Francis57....has your son only played LL and MIddle School ball....or has he played on at least an average to above average travel ball team in the summer.  If he hasn't played travel I don't think you've probably got a real understanding of how much better kids his age are that have played travel in the summer.....vs kids who don't.  Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions, but if he's only played LL and Middle School, the fact that he was an All Star means nothing with regard to HS....especially if you're considering that he may be playing JV with kids 2, maybe even 3 years older than him. 

Nope.  He's been playing travel baseball since he was 8U and has played it every year since that time.  (He's 15U this coming spring.)  In the beginning, it was the local travel league which is a step above the usual rec league.  But, for the last three years, he's been on a tournament team that's played at all the better outlets - including many PG tournaments.  He also trains, a lot.   He's seen STRONG competition since moving to the big field.  He's been exposed to, and preformed well, against teams and players that are far beyond the LL and MS level.

First, THANKS to all who have posted a reply.  It's all great stuff and appreciated!  

I know that it's out of my control.  Trust me, I'm not sweating it.  To me, it's all good and there's no losing scenarios here.  Everything has some positives to it.  None of it is perfect.  There's no clear YES or NO here.

For me, personally, I would like to see him start the year on JV.  He's played with those kids before at various places.  He knows that he's more than capable to handle that level.  Basically, it's the kids who he played with and against when he was in the 7th grade (and they were 8th graders).   Plus, he knows the level of play at Freshmen is far below what he handles when playing travel.  It's really not going to challenge him.  

And, being on JV, he's one level and one injury/slump away from getting a cup of coffee on varsity.

Also, he's aware of the speed of the game at the varsity level.  We've attended games in the past.  We've also seen several college games in person.  And, he's seen 16U and 17U teams play in tournaments.  There's nothing he doesn't know about the speed at that level.  Further, he's faced kids throwing 85 in travel games.  And, he's taken BP off the Hack Attack at 90.  No issues there.  He's also caught bullpens for 18 years olds who are in the upper 80's and touching 90.  He can handle it.  But, in my opinion, he wouldn't do as well against it, at his age now, as he would playing at the JV level.   

It's all irrelevant.  Make sure he is having fun!  Focus on being the best he can be today and tomorrow will work out.  

It's your job to support him AND the programs decisions.  Your son will reflect your attitude towards the program.  For instance, trashing the Freshman program as though it's below your son's ability, and that's where he ends up, will impact his experience negatively.  

Or complaining about play time if he is on the varsity roster as a freshman will impact your son negatively.  Maybe he only pinch runs here and there, who cares he is practicing at the varsity level.

real green posted:

For instance, trashing the Freshman program as though it's below your son's ability, and that's where he ends up, will impact his experience negatively.  

 

I'm not trashing it, just being objective.  There are about 13 freshmen trying out who played MS ball last year and some form of travel.  At least 50% of those 13 where non-starters in MS and on "B" level travel teams (where they also didn't start).  Anyone else trying out beyond those 13 are kids who only played recreational baseball or never played any organized baseball at all. 

Basically, including my son, in terms of freshmen, there are about a half-dozen kids who started on their MS and travel teams.  It's a very shallow pool of players and many of the players will likely be out of the HS program after freshmen year.  Again, I'm just being objective.  My son also knows all the players.  He doesn't need me to educate him on it.  

It is what it is...and that's fine, if that's where he ends up.  My message to him would be:  "Have fun playing.  Do your best.  And, remember, you're playing to show that you want to advance in the program.  Give them a reason to move you up."  And, that's it.

Francis7 posted:

real green posted:

For instance, trashing the Freshman program as though it's below your son's ability, and that's where he ends up, will impact his experience negatively.  

 

I'm not trashing it, just being objective.  There are about 13 freshmen trying out who played MS ball last year and some form of travel.  At least 50% of those 13 where non-starters in MS and on "B" level travel teams (where they also didn't start).  Anyone else trying out beyond those 13 are kids who only played recreational baseball or never played any organized baseball at all. 

Basically, including my son, in terms of freshmen, there are about a half-dozen kids who started on their MS and travel teams.  It's a very shallow pool of players and many of the players will likely be out of the HS program after freshmen year.  Again, I'm just being objective.  My son also knows all the players.  He doesn't need me to

I think you maybe discounting the growth kids make at this age.  Some of the 50% players who did not start will potentially grow and improve their skills and strengths between the end of the MS season and the HS tryouts.  Its really a crapshoot at this age to say this player will be good next or this player will not be.  Puberty is the great equalizer.

Based on the info you've provided I don't think he'd be happy on the freshmen team. Even if he likes his teammates and is playing with friends, you don't want it to be boring for him.    It's no fun "playing down" when he's been exposed to so much better thru travel ball.  Unfortunately in certain areas and programs, that's just the way it is.  I ran a very good 15U/16U team for two years.  That team as 15U kids would have beaten every varsity team my son played against in his 3 years of HS....except maybe 1 and most wouldn't have been close.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Based on the info you've provided I don't think he'd be happy on the freshmen team. Even if he likes his teammates and is playing with friends, you don't want it to be boring for him.    It's no fun "playing down" when he's been exposed to so much better thru travel ball.  Unfortunately in certain areas and programs, that's just the way it is.  I ran a very good 15U/16U team for two years.  That team as 15U kids would have beaten every varsity team my son played against in his 3 years of HS....except maybe 1 and most wouldn't have been close.

I only see it in a player when the parent is unhappy.  I have never seen a top player on a crappy team not enjoy the game when the parents enjoy the game.  Disappointed about results, sure.  Disappointed in playing baseball, nope.  

joes87 posted:

I think you maybe discounting the growth kids make at this age.  Some of the 50% players who did not start will potentially grow and improve their skills and strengths between the end of the MS season and the HS tryouts.  Its really a crapshoot at this age to say this player will be good next or this player will not be.  Puberty is the great equalizer.

 

No question that some kids get BIGGER.  (And, some don't grow much at all.)  Puberty helps.  But, coaching, instruction and training matter A LOT too.  And, like I said, we know the kids.  Most of them are not working on their own.  They're more interested in Juuling than getting ready to play at the next level.  And, that's OK if that's what they want to do.  Not everyone is willing or wants to put in the time and effort to get better.  In any event, sure, maybe a few of them will transform with puberty.  But, it won't be a lot - at least not with this crew.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Based on the info you've provided I don't think he'd be happy on the freshmen team. Even if he likes his teammates and is playing with friends, you don't want it to be boring for him.    It's no fun "playing down" when he's been exposed to so much better thru travel ball.  Unfortunately in certain areas and programs, that's just the way it is.  

I don't disagree.  But, my position on it, with him, is simple:  "If you think you belong at a different level, prove it with your play.  Bat .600.  Have at least two hits in every game.  Homer at least once in every ten at bats.  Play lights out defense.  Run the bases like a champion.  Make it obscene to be playing there because your production screams otherwise.  Force the promotion with production.  Just do it and keep your mouth shut.  Let your bat, feet, glove and arm do all the talking."

Someone recently asked the guy in charge of the Astros why they don't treat minor leaguers better in terms of travel, accommodations, pay and food.  His answer was simple:  "We like them hungry."

I agree - if you made playing in the minors a sweet deal then some would never strive to get promoted.  It's the same with the freshmen team.  Don't like being there?  Then play your way to the next level.

Francis, Do your son & yourself a big favor...please!....

Resign from the I" Heard Club" & "Comparing MY Johnny to Larry, Harry & Moe Club"! 

All these scenario's you have presented the last couple months really don't mean a thing! As long as your kiddo is doing his best, THAT IS ALL that matters! His focus will be tainted if he gets a whiff of any of this nonsense! 

Your goal is to support his goal...So, Encourage all his teammates, & compliment all their parents. "Atta Boys" go farther than you can imagine. Enjoy these upcoming years & "don't sweat the small stuff". 

OK, I'm done parenting the parent!  

baseballmom posted:

Encourage all his teammates, & compliment all their parents.

100% agree on the former!  Not so sure on the latter? 

I don't believe that parents deserve praise for their kid's play on the field.  When people say things to me about my kid, the answer is always the same:  "Thanks, but, all the credit goes to him.   He's the one putting in the work.  He's the one going out to the field and making something happen.  All I do is drive him places and offer him a cheeseburger or ice cream after games.  It's his talent and effort.  I really don't have anything to do with it."

Now, if they want to compliment me on him being polite or a decent human being, then I'm open for business - just as I would quickly compliment any parent who is raising a good person who is an asset to his community.

Agree with this last statement.  Why would you congratulate parents on their kid's actions?  Normally the parents that do that are the ones who are looking for it in return.  I will congratulate the kids on great play but not normal play.  I also don't clap for normal plays. 

A couple thoughts,

1) You're concerned with things you have no control over.   Forget about it or you will drive yourself crazy or those around you crazy with "what if" scenarios for the next four years or beyond.  Don't worry, there will be big decisions coming your way if you play this right in 2.5 to 3 years.

2) Focus on things your son can control.   Grades, advanced classes, skills development and a plan to get to the next level through his travel team.  HS Baseball is a stepping stone, but high school grades and test scores are a measuring stick and reference point for future college options or possibly the draft.   He is only going to be as good as his options.

3) Have fun and challenge your son.  If your son is beyond his years in ability as you state, why not suggest your son take on a leadership role in the program.   This will differentiate him in the hs coaches eyes and potential college recruiters.

As always, JMO. Good luck!

The goal is to “play” so hopefully the coach will play him where he can get the most meaningful/challenging reps.  That may be a combination of freshman/JV or JV/varsity.

Here in GA, a kid gets 30 regular season games. Those can be all at one level or split between two levels.

Whatever happens, I wish him the best. 

real green posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Based on the info you've provided I don't think he'd be happy on the freshmen team. Even if he likes his teammates and is playing with friends, you don't want it to be boring for him.    It's no fun "playing down" when he's been exposed to so much better thru travel ball.  Unfortunately in certain areas and programs, that's just the way it is.  I ran a very good 15U/16U team for two years.  That team as 15U kids would have beaten every varsity team my son played against in his 3 years of HS....except maybe 1 and most wouldn't have been close.

I only see it in a player when the parent is unhappy.  I have never seen a top player on a crappy team not enjoy the game when the parents enjoy the game.  Disappointed about results, sure.  Disappointed in playing baseball, nope.  

 

I have to dust this one off ....

Kids would have more fun playing if parents would stop telling them it’s not fun.

I don't  believe that freshmen should play on varsity...ever..regardless of talent..they should be with their peers at that level...it will help them in the long run.

Francis7 posted:

baseballmom posted:

Encourage all his teammates, & compliment all their parents.

100% agree on the former!  Not so sure on the latter? 

I don't believe that parents deserve praise for their kid's play on the field.  When people say things to me about my kid, the answer is always the same:  "Thanks, but, all the credit goes to him.   He's the one putting in the work.  He's the one going out to the field and making something happen.  All I do is drive him places and offer him a cheeseburger or ice cream after games.  It's his talent and effort.  I really don't have anything to do with it."

Now, if they want to compliment me on him being polite or a decent human being, then I'm open for business - just as I would quickly compliment any parent who is raising a good person who is an asset to his community.

When parents compliment another parent they’re really complimenting the kid and letting you know they appreciate watching his game.

fenwaysouth posted:

A couple thoughts,

1) You're concerned with things you have no control over.   Forget about it or you will drive yourself crazy or those around you crazy with "what if" scenarios for the next four years or beyond.  Don't worry, there will be big decisions coming your way if you play this right in 2.5 to 3 years.

2) Focus on things your son can control.   Grades, advanced classes, skills development and a plan to get to the next level through his travel team.  HS Baseball is a stepping stone, but high school grades and test scores are a measuring stick and reference point for future college options or possibly the draft.   He is only going to be as good as his options.

3) Have fun and challenge your son.  If your son is beyond his years in ability as you state, why not suggest your son take on a leadership role in the program.   This will differentiate him in the hs coaches eyes and potential college recruiters.

As always, JMO. Good luck!

 

Fenway - great post!

Francis - as has been posted many times in several threads - control what you can control and the rest will take care of themselves.  The 4 years of HS will go by faster than you can imagine and if you fret about every "what if" scenario you will miss a big portion of  your son's HS baseball experience.

FWIW - our school system (in a rural county) only has MS, JV and Varsity baseball.  No freshman team.  In fact none of the schools in the region have a freshman team.   My son made Varsity as a sophomore and beat out the senior for his position (Catcher).  I wasn't worried when he didn't make V as a freshman.  School hired a new coach son's sophomore year.  He doesn't even look at freshman for Varsity and still doesn't.

If your son is as talented as you indicate I wouldn't worry too much about what team (F, JV or V) he ends up on.  If the coach needs him on Varsity and feels he has the talent to play at that level, then he'll move him up.  If not, he will get to season himself at F or JV.

CatcherDadNY posted:

I don't  believe that freshmen should play on varsity...ever..regardless of talent..they should be with their peers at that level...it will help them in the long run.

If a freshman could come in and contribute right away - why wouldn't they?