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BEWARE - don't risk your amateur status with NCAA!

06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
As a travel baseball coach, I've seen a disturbing trend over the years, one that I've long thought was walking a thin line toward some student athletes losing their amateur status via the NCAA decalaring them ineligible. Just a few weeks ago, I received an email questioning our activities with one of my former players, a young man who also played for USA Baseball's Youth National Team. Due to the answers he gave on their elibibility certification questionnaire, they contacted me for clarification about his activities. In the end, all was fine, but it did set a discussion in motion about some other practices I've seen some other teams engage in with top level players, a practice that I've long thought might risk a players eligibility to play college sports.

What I'm referring to above is the practice of some high profile/budget travel teams inviting top level players who are not regular members of their teams to join them for large regional or national tournaments. I've heard of cases where the player has been given airfare, lodging, meals and possibly other expenses being covered, in order to come play for certain teams in large tournaments, and I wondered what the NCAA thought of this. So, as part of my ongoing dialogue with one of the NCAA's staffers in their eligibility center, I posed the following question and received the response shown below.

Question:
"Let me ask you about a specific situation I am aware of with a local athlete. Let’s say the player is on a local team, but a different team (one he is not a regular member of) invites him to go to a big tournament out of state. They offer to pay his airfare, lodging and meals if he’ll come and play with them in that tournament. There is no fee charged for him to play with the team, and they’re picking up all of his expenses to go play in that tournament. Would that be a violation?"

Response: "Yes. It would."

That response came directly from the NCAA eligibility center. I know for a fact that I'm not the only person who spends time on HSBBW's forums who is aware of exactly this type of thing going on with high school athletes, and I'd caution everyone to keep this in mind.

You, and your baseball player, may think it is great to get invited to go with some team to play in a big national tournament and have them pick up the tab. From my research, I've concluded the NCAA doesn't think it is so great, and if they find out about it, you risk having your amateur status stripped and losing out on the opportunity to play college baseball at any level.

This is something to keep in mind if you want to play college baseball.
Last edited {1}
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06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
biggestfan, it is my understanding (I could be wrong)that as long as every single member is treated the same way, that it is probably OK. The practice I'm referring to above is where an out of state team invites a kid to come join them for a tournament, pays their airfare to fly them to the tournament, houses them, and then sends them home, never to play with the team again. I've seen it happen several times, and wondered what the NCAA would rule on such an event. Since they initiated an eligibility dialogue with me on a different player and example, I simply expanded the dialogue to ask if what I've seen happen is acceptable. It isn't.
H Homerun041,000+ posts
From what I have seen there are a lot of programs that bring players in for individual events, fly them around, pay for their housing from donations, sponsors, and fund raising events, but the border line would if they pay them to participate.

There is a well known program in the mid-west that flies very high profile players in from around the country and sends them to high profile events like the Jupiter, FL event.

There are also some events that pay expenses for players to come in and participate in their events.

If programs don't sponsor some individuals, some less privileged individuals may not ever get a chance to display their abilities at high profile events.
Last edited by Homerun04
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:


Originally posted by Homerun04:

If programs don't sponsor some individuals, some less privileged individuals may not ever get a chance to display their abilities at high profile events.



Homerun, I agree with this statement only on the level that the player is sponsored by his OWN team, i.e. scholarship, etc. If the player isn't on the team at time of tournament, showcase, etc, it's unfortunate that he may not be able to profile his abilities at this time. However, at least he won't jeopardize his future eligibility by crossing over the line by accepting a free ride/room, etc. to go.

A big crime would be the Travel club who does invite a kid to join them, pay for everything, and either knowingly or unknowingly, causes an innocent kid to lose his eligibility over a week long tournament.
I iheartbb1,000+ posts
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...8ad89d1ffd1ad6fc8b25

This may not be a current 2009 form, but it should be pretty close to what they are looking for in terms of of your status. Once you give your final electronic signature on the ncaaclearinghouse site, you cannot go back and review your answers or alter them. This of course is not a Bylaw, just a sample of the questionaire.
Last edited by iheartbb
H Homerun041,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
quote:


Originally posted by Homerun04:

If programs don't sponsor some individuals, some less privileged individuals may not ever get a chance to display their abilities at high profile events.



Homerun, I agree with this statement only on the level that the player is sponsored by his OWN team, i.e. scholarship, etc. If the player isn't on the team at time of tournament, showcase, etc, it's unfortunate that he may not be able to profile his abilities at this time. However, at least he won't jeopardize his future eligibility by crossing over the line by accepting a free ride/room, etc. to go.

A big crime would be the Travel club who does invite a kid to join them, pay for everything, and either knowingly or unknowingly, causes an innocent kid to lose his eligibility over a week long tournament.


What is “their own team”?

I am big backer of playing as a team and building the relationships a team bring to the table for youth baseball. I did not like it when teams brought in players who had not been with them for the season and displaced others who had been with them for the duration, but the real facts are, there are teams that are only in it to put together a team to win.

We once played a team in Georgia which was based in Georgia, with many of the very high profile players from the east coast, none of which were from Georgia! There were other teams from the same organization but they were not as good, but they had players from Georgia.

Back to the Amateur status; some of the collegiate summer teams fly out players or provide for transportation cost and most provide housing and ground transportation when there, and some do not charge for players to participate.
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Homerun04:
From what I have seen there are a lot of programs that bring players in for individual events, fly them around, pay for their housing from donations, sponsors, and fund raising events, but the border line would if they pay them to participate.

There is a well known program in the mid-west that flies very high profile players in from around the country and sends them to high profile events like the Jupiter, FL event.

There are also some events that pay expenses for players to come in and participate in their events.

If programs don't sponsor some individuals, some less privileged individuals may not ever get a chance to display their abilities at high profile events.


Here is the EXACT wording of our exchange, again.
Question:
"Let me ask you about a specific situation I am aware of with a local athlete. Let’s say the player is on a local team, but a different team (one he is not a regular member of) invites him to go to a big tournament out of state. They offer to pay his airfare, lodging and meals if he’ll come and play with them in that tournament. There is no fee charged for him to play with the team, and they’re picking up all of his expenses to go play in that tournament. Would that be a violation?"

Response: "Yes. It would."

I think that addresses what you're talking about.
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:


Originally posted by Homerun04:

What is “their own team”?

I am big backer of playing as a team and building the relationships a team bring to the table for youth baseball. I did not like it when teams brought in players who had not been with them for the season and displaced others who had been with them for the duration, but the real facts are, there are teams that are only in it to put together a team to win.

We once played a team in Georgia which was based in Georgia, with many of the very high profile players from the east coast, none of which were from Georgia! There were other teams from the same organization but they were not as good, but they had players from Georgia.

Back to the Amateur status; some of the collegiate summer teams fly out players or provide for transportation cost and most provide housing and ground transportation when there, and some do not charge for players to participate.



Homerun, we may be saying the same thing, just differently. Again, I follow what you are saying on the subject.

What is their "own" team? I can only speculate on this but I would imagine it is the official roster prior to beginning the travel season? This is solely speculation on my part but I'd imagine that players that are on a this team whether in or out of state in the very beginning join with the knowledge of having to pay transportation, housing, etc. to play on this said team.

I could honestly see a team from a certain state that virtually has NO players from that state on their team. I would assume they all join with that understanding from the get go. I dunno, but one would think so.

If these parents can afford to send their son to selected venues, tourneys, showcases, etc. with this team during the summer, more power to them. I'm not even sure that the NCAA is concerned with a kid's name being on the roster before the season begins in this case. They are only looking at monies handed out to get a kid from Point A to Point B to play ball.

It depends on what the definition of "is" is...LOL
H Homerun041,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:

It depends on what the definition of "is" is...LOL




Let's really think about "amateurism", if it depends on if flights, hotels, and meals expenses are being paid for, how many college teams make their players pay for their own transportation and hotels when on the road, it may come to it for some programs, but....
Last edited by Homerun04
I iheartbb1,000+ posts
Collegiate players are not in violation when their transportation, lodging and meal (per diem) are provdided for by their college.

It sounds like if someone wanted to report one of these high profile (hired guns - per se) to the NCAA it could mean trouble for them.

This does not just pertain to baseball, it is all sports - think about how this could play out with football, basketball, golf, etc...
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
I went back to the original email I got from the NCAA, and copied a portion of what they were asking me, it said:

"3) Do the (club's name was here) provide any of the following for any member of the team:
a. Meals (before or after games)
b. Transportation (to/from away games)
c. Lodging (at away games)
d. Medical insurance
e. Stipend (for food or gas)
f. Medical treatment at a contest"

This was what they wanted to know during the investigation of whether our player had done anything to potentially violate his amateur status. What I posted above was an taken directly from her email, and the only change was that I deleted my club's name. Take that with the other posts I've made on this, and you'll get an idea of why I started this thread.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
quote:
"3) Do the (club's name was here) provide any of the following for any member of the team:
a. Meals (before or after games)
b. Transportation (to/from away games)
c. Lodging (at away games)
d. Medical insurance
e. Stipend (for food or gas)
f. Medical treatment at a contest"
I infer that you think that it may be impermissible to provde these to any of your team members. Actually, these (excepting e. Stipend) are specifically cited on the list of items which qualify as necessary expenses. (12.02.4) A violation would only occur if the team provided more than the actual expense.

By the way, if a team does provide more than actual expenses, the eligibility of the entire team would be in jeopardy, not just the player(s) who received excessive benefits. That's because the team is classified as professional if it "pays" any member of the team.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
Thanks '06 for the heads up....

Our DI compliance paperwork has changed some this year, asking in more detail about the items you mentioned, clearly indicating a trend in that direction and previewing pending rules/interpretations/changes...ones that are already in the works...and in true NCAA baseball rules fashion, ones that we may not hear about until after the fact

Beyond that...

I think we are missing the point here. Rather than attack the messeneger take his information as you will...and at your peril.

It has been my experience in the last decade that as far as the NCAA is concerned regarding college baseball (no so much in the other more high profile sports)...that they have far too much time on their hands, no oversight, no clear direction and as a result and they tinker wildly (often writing rules that conflict with stated organizational goals)....and always without fully thinking out the time frames and the resulting ramifications of "retoactive rules" ...and about the consequences that they create for the kids and families that get caught in these "stealth" rule changes.

This change is just the kind of thing that they do, changing the rules interpretations in midstream. It would clearly appear that they are targeting travel team funding in baseball and tampering with interpretations.

IMO...The value in the original post IMO is a heads up...it is good information and should put up a red flag...be very careful...lest you get and yours get caught in the next NCAA...."lurch".

More specifically...This is the way that the NCAA work's when it comes to baseball...

- What "is" is, is always in the hands of the NCAA, and they have the power...they make all the rules....everything is left up to their interpretation. You call them "expenses", the NCAA appears to be ready to call them "pay". And where the NCAA draws this line would appear to be getting fuzzy and moving...Beware. There is no telling where it may come down.

Cool
.
Last edited by observer44
55mom55mom1,000+ posts
We were shocked at how much information/details the NCAA wants. We are working on that right now.

For example, if there was a sponsor, they want the name. Sorry, but we have no idea who some of them might be. This goes back to age 13. Also. coaches contact information. Age 13? Really?

random thought: gosh, I just thought about a local team. For several years now, the coach has used monies from somewhere (he never revealed) to buy uniforms, pay entry fees, etc. There was no cost to play, except for transportation, lodging, food that sort of thing. His team is now a 16u and playing showcase.

Son isn't on some high powered team, but trying to be honest and open, could make some answers appear suspect. It is very intimidating. We have always paid for everything, sponsors (and fund raising) have defrayed the cost somewhat.

This must be spurred on by a recent SI article.
Last edited by 55mom
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
All expenses related directly to playing for a team are allowed expenses. There are several teams here that reimburse players for all expenses including gas meals rooms etc.
You just have to be careful that it directly relates to necessary expenses. If you are reimbursed over and above it can be construed as being paid to play your sport which is not allowed. You also can't play for a team that is classified as professional even if you don't get paid. You can't even walk on the field wearing their uniform during a game.
They may be asking more questions but nothing really has changed.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
Dealing with NCAA Compliance is somewhat like dealing with an IRS agent. 3FG gives the best advice about getting the NCAA officer to site the rule they think has been violated. There have been circumstances where 3 different NCAA compliance officers gave three different interpretations to the same circumstance.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
quote:
"3) Do the (club's name was here) provide any of the following for any member of the team:
a. Meals (before or after games)
b. Transportation (to/from away games)
c. Lodging (at away games)
d. Medical insurance
e. Stipend (for food or gas)
f. Medical treatment at a contest"
I infer that you think that it may be impermissible to provde these to any of your team members. Actually, these (excepting e. Stipend) are specifically cited on the list of items which qualify as necessary expenses. (12.02.4) A violation would only occur if the team provided more than the actual expense.

By the way, if a team does provide more than actual expenses, the eligibility of the entire team would be in jeopardy, not just the player(s) who received excessive benefits. That's because the team is classified as professional if it "pays" any member of the team.


I agree with 3FG, these are necessary expenses (except the stipend) and are allowed by the NCAA.
If the above was true, half the baseball players in college could be considered ineligible. Roll Eyes

If you call the NCAA three times and ask 3 different people the same question you will get three different answers, always ask them to cite the rule.


What they are looking for is "gift acceptance" from agents and compliance must treat all sports equal, football being the biggest offender.

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Let us just stay with the baseball aspect for now----what we have now are "mercanaries", getting the best they can for the least they have to spend---there is no more loyalty---do we have to go to contracts? I sure hope not--a handshake is good enough for me--but not for the new breed---you gert them what they want and they say "adios amigo" because they think they have a better deal.

And there are travel teams using this aspect---interesting aspect !!!

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