Big Mac finally comes clean

Coach May,

Well said!


Management and players are both to blame. But then look at Congress, where none of these clowns can see an inch beyond their own self-interest.

We need to start over with a blank sheet of paper in Congress, perhaps the same is true in baseball. Clean house, clean it up, and start over somehow.

When I heard he was going to sit down with Costas and tell the truth I was really glad and ready to totally forgive and move on.

Then he goes with the Bill Clinton, i didn't inhale ala low dosages, just cuz I was injured bullcr@p.

The longer he talked the more he turned me off.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
When I heard he was going to sit down with Costas and tell the truth I was really glad and ready to totally forgive and move on.

Then he goes with the Bill Clinton, i didn't inhale ala low dosages, just cuz I was injured bullcr@p.

The longer he talked the more he turned me off.

The Costas interview really made McGwire look bad. Mickey Mantle told youngsters when he was dying "Don't be like me!" He made no excuses for the lifestyle he chose and he had way more excuses to make than McGwire ever had imho.

Anybody hear/notice the arrogance when he was making the argument that he would have hit 70 without steroids? How he perfected his swing and created backspin on the ball? How he hit a homer in his first little league at bat? How they still talk about his little league homeruns? How they still talk about his legion homeruns? How they still talk about his college homeruns? How he led the nation in homeruns in college? How they still talk about his minor league homeruns?

Who is they? Who still talks about these things? Does McGwire have voices that are talking to him in his head? Do steroids cause delusions?

McGwire had the gaul to try and paint himself as the victim. He was only overcoming injury. He didn't come clean sooner to protect his family. Don't you love it how athletes hide behind their families?

I agree with Coach May's take 100%. That was an embarrassing performance yesterday.

How come no one is suspicious of Mark Grudzielanek? He hit .282 over nine seasons through age 32 with only two .300+ seasons. Then he averaged .302 for the next six seasons from age thirty-three through thirty-eight with three .300+ seasons with his worst season during that period being better than seven of the previous nine?

Is it because while his stats should raise suspicion in the steroid's era, he's not breaking any records? He's just Joe Lunchpail Ballplayer. But he may have been holding off another player from starting or another player from making a MLB roster. And at the bottom end of the ladder a player in the minors got cut.

I'm not saying Grudzielanek took PEDs. The point is no one is noticing inconsistant stats and complaining about PEDs unless it's a star. Yet the actions of any MLB player can set off a chain reaction affecting players throughout the organization.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:But here's my big argument. The commissioner and owners knew what was going on with steroids and did nothing. The post strike home run era revitalized baseball and lined their pockets. They did nothing to take the steroid users off the field. The stats were performed on the field. Put them in The Hall.

Also good post Coach_May.

What I find most shocking is how judgmental we all are. We are so quick to judge and condemn those we aren't fans of while we stand by our own. There is not one of us who hasn't done something in our past that we are ashamed of and most of us would lie if questioned about it. We fib and lie to our friends, spouses, bosses and kids. But it's ok because we're doing it for their good... Right... We say unkind things about folks when they're not around but when we meet them we act like we're best buds.
We'll never know exactly who was clean and who wasn't except for those who admit it, we might be surprised to find that some we'd never have suspected HAVE juiced. And I have NO doubt in my mind that some of the pre-steroid era greats would've taken steroids if they'd have played in that period of time. They did whatever they could to gain an advantage and that was part of what made them so great, the only thing they cared about was being the best they could be.
There are some who get bats rolled for an advantage while some don't feel that it's right, that may not be much different than doing steroids. Someone could really get hurt from another person's quest to be the best. Steroids hurt your own health while a rolled bat may put another's health in danger.

Would he admit to using if he didn't know the results of the Hall Of Fame voting?

Not only did baseball execs do nothing, they condoned, even contributed to the PED era because it was in their best interest$$$

It was all a big game of "nude-nudge, wink-wink" between the players, the union, and execs.

Now the execs all sit by, mouths aghast, incredulous, as the very players - the best players of a generation - that they pushed to line their pockets are publicly ripped to shreds, their careers amounting to nothing but shame and scorn.

Corporate America at it's finest. No different than our banks, congress, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by workinghard:
Question-
If my son is throwing 90-91 without PED's, and a teammate is throwing 95-96 with PED's, and this is known by the MLB owners, which player do you think they would take if they could only take one?

Ok, I'll answer. 95-96 PED's.

My point being, which has now been touched on, is it was known and continues to be known by the higher ups. Give me the best chance to win and give me the best chance to cash in, and that is the route that will be taken.

Are you rooting against these players when they play for your team? Do you still root for your team if the organization rostered one of these players after they were caught?

Implicated (34)
Mark McGwire
Manny Alexander
Chuck Finley
Barry Bonds
Marvin Bernard
Randy Velarde
Wilson Alvarez
Bret Boone
Ozzie Canseco
Juan Gonzalez
Dave Martinez
Ivan Rodriguez
Tony Saunders
Miguel Tejada
Lenny Dykstra
Dave Hollins
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Brian Roberts
Jay Gibbons
Gary Matthews Jr.
Darren Holmes
Rick Ankiel
Troy Glaus
Scott Schoeneweis
Matt Williams
Jose Guillen
Ismael Valdez
Magglio Ordonez
Alex Rodriguez
Mike Piazza
Todd Greene
Sammy Sosa
David Ortiz

Other (4)
Terrmel Sledge*
Derek Turnbow*
Rico Brogna*
David Bell**

Admitted (16)
Bobby Estalella
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Armando Rios
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Jose Canseco
Tom House
Wally Joyner
Jim Leyritz
Paxton Crawford
David Segui
John Rocker
Paul Byrd
Shane Monahan

MLB Suspensions (25)
Jorge Piedra
Agustin Montero
Jamal Strong
Juan Rincon
Rafael Betancourt
Rafael Palmeiro
Ryan Franklin
Mike Morse
Carlos Almanzar
Felix Heredia
Matt Lawton
Yusaku Iriki
Jason Grimsley†
Guillermo Mota
Juan Salas
Ryan Jorgensen†
Dan Serafini
Eliezer Alfonzo
Humberto Cota
Henry Owens
JC Romero
Sergio Mitre
Kelvin Pichardo
Manny Ramirez†

Mitchell Report (47)
Ricky Bones
Alex Cabrera
Larry Bigbie
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Todd Hundley
Hal Morris
Mark Carreon
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Chuck Knoblauch
Greg Zaunn
David Justice
F.P. Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Merker
Adam Piatt
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett Jr.
Jim Parque
Brendan Donnelly
Chad Allen
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Nook Logan

Minor Leaguers and their affiliates

June 11, 2009
Pablo Ozuna, IF (Phillies) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 15, 2009
Agustin Murillo, 3B (Diamondbacks) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 30, 2009
Pedro Lambertus, RHP (Brewers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 17, 2009
Juan Rivera, SS (Royals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Joseph Billick, C (Royals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

March 17, 2009
Rob Flanigan, 1B/DH (Giants) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

February 3, 2009
Pascual Arias, RHP (Marlins) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

January 28, 2009
Kyle Suire, 2B (Mets) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

January 16, 2009
Cristopher De La Rosa, OF (Red Sox) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Junior Guerra, RHP (Mets) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

December 22, 2008
Damian Taveras, C (Yankees) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Ambiorix Suero, RHP (Orioles) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

December 1, 2008
Wilfred Vivas, IF (Cardinals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 1, 2008
Angel Reyes, LHP (Yankees) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 25, 2008
Jonathan Jaspe, C (Blue Jays) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 8, 2008
Jordan Schafer, OF (Braves) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 3, 2008
Robert Hernandez, RHP (Braves) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

February 20, 2008
Scott Vander Weg, RHP (Cardinals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

January 10, 2008
Jacob Rodriguez, RHP (Royals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

*Suspended for failing to take a drug test, a violation of the drug testing agreement

August 30, 2007
Matthew West, SS (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 24, 2007
Juan Valdez, OF (Indians) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 18, 2007
James Houser, LHP (Devil Rays) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

July 27, 2007
Tom King, RHP (Giants) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

July 24, 2007
Angel Salome, C (Brewers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

July 4, 2007
Sergio Garcia, 2B (Giants) - 2nd Offense - 100 Games

May 25, 2007
Brandon Monk, 2B (Braves) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 16, 2007
Lino Urdaneta, P (Mets) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 9, 2007
Francisco Cruceta, P (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 7, 2007
Jorge Reyes, P (Mets) - 2nd Offense - 100 Games

Lou Santangelo, C (Astros) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 30, 2007
Sendy Vasquez, P (Tigers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 27, 2007
Jonathan Figueroa, P (Dodgers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 24, 2007
Tyron Wilson, SS, (Royals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

*Suspended for failing to take a drug test, a violation of the drug testing agreement

April 12, 2007
Hector Made, IF (Philies) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 6, 2007
Bernie Castro, IF (Nationals) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

*Tested positive in 2005 but was on a major league roster until April 2, 2007.

January 3, 2007
Maikol Mesa, OF (Reds) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

December 14, 2006
Hector Noesi, P (Yankees) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

September 12, 2006
Welington Dotel, OF (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 31, 2006
Luis Jimenez, RHP (Brewers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 29, 2006
Charles Dasni, RHP (Dodgers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 8, 2006
Daniel McCutchen, RHP (Yankees) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 3, 2006
Marcos Chavez, 2B - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Jonathan Gonzalez, RHP - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 1, 2006
Alfredo Reyes, LHP (Pirates) - 1st and 2nd Offenses - 100 Games

Jesus Granado, DH (Philies) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Alvaro Diaz, C (Tigers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Juan Casas, LHP (Pirates) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Edison Barrios, RHP (Pirates) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Kengshill Pujols, RHP (Dodgers) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Tyler Flowers, 1B (Braves) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

July 24, 2006
Wascar Segura, RHP (White Sox) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Richard Rodriguez, RHP (Blue Jays) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Jonathan Requena, OF (Twins) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Alfredo Martin, 1B (Twins) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Carlos Fajardo, LHP (Reds) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

July 20, 2006
Timothy Haines, RHP (Mets) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 2, 2006
Matthew Rico, RHP (Devil Rays) - 2nd Offense - 100 Games

May 19, 2006
Nerio Rodriguez, RHP (Pirates) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 24, 2006
Greg Thissen, 2B (Nationals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Abraham Nunez, OF (Giants) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

May 31, 2006
Yamid Haad, C (Giants) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 25, 2006
Edward Rodriguez, RHP (Blue Jays) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

April 18, 2006
Karl Gelinas, RHP (Angels) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Jorge Reyes, RHP (Mets) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Yonathan Silvira, OF (Cardinals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Matthew Varner, RHP (Padres) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Angel Rocha, LHP (Diamond Backs) - 2nd Offense - 100 Games

April 11, 2006
Ramon Ramirez, RHP (Reds) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Waner Mateo, RHP (Mets) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

Ryan Rafferty, RHP (Royals) - 1st Offense - 50 Games

August 16, 2005
Nicholas Slack, OF (Brewers) 1st Offense - 15 Games

Luis Ugueto, 2B (Royals) - 2nd Offense - 30 Games

August 12, 2005
Wilson Delgado, IF (Marlins) - 2nd Offense - 30 Games

July 22, 2005
Deivi Mendez, SS (Yankees) - 2nd Offense - 30 Games

Randy Ruiz, 1B (Phillies) - 2nd Offense - 30 Games

July 15, 2005
Carlos Bohorquez, RHP (Cincinnati) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Alex Santos, RHP (Athletics) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Matt Whiteside, RHP (Blue Jays) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

July 1, 2005
Josh Labandeira, SS (Nationals) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Ramon A. Castro, IF (Nationals) 1st and 2nd Offenses - 105 Games

June 24, 2005
Jeffrey Bruksch, RHP (Reds) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Joshua Carter, OF (Philies) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Sergio Garcia, IF (Dodgers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jeff Kennard, RHP (Yankees) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Brian Walker, LHP (Mets) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

May 20, 2005
Thomas Farmer, RHP (Dodgers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Chad Scarbery, RHP (Diamond Backs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Heath Totten, RHP (Dodgers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

May 13, 2005
Wilson Delgado , IF (Marlins) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Josh Presley, 1B (Royals) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Luis Ugueto, IF (Royals) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jeremy Cummings, RHP (Cardinals) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

May 12, 2005
Robert Valido, SS (White Sox) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Tetsu Yofu, LHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Steve Smyth, LHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Guillermo Rodriguez, C - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Brian Mazone, LHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Josh Cram, RHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Oscar Montero, RHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Marcus Mendoza, LHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jonathan Herrera, SS - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Christian Parker, RHP - 1st Offense - 15 Games

May 6, 2005
Darnell McDonald, OF (Indians) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

April 22, 2005
Gary Cates Jr., 2B (Orioles) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Rafael Diaz, 3B (Orioles) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

James Jurries, IF (Braves) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Damien Myers, LHP (Tigers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Ricardo Rodriguez, RHP (Braves) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Grant Roberts, RHP (Mets) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Richard Salazar, LHP (Orioles) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Adam Seuss, OF (Astros) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Eider Torres, SS (Indians) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

April 6, 2005
Tom Evans, 3B (Pirates) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jon Nunnally, OF (Pirates) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Brian Mallette, RHP (Pirates) - 2nd Offense - 30 Games

April 4, 2005
Elvis Avendano, RHP (Athletics) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Lizahio Baez, OF (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Oscar Bernard, C (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

David Cash, RHP (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

David Castillo, C (Athletics) 3rd Offense - 60 Games

Troy Cate, LHP (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Robinson Chirinos, 2B (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Ryan Christianson, C (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Willie Collazo, LHP (Angels) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Francisco Cordova, RHP (Angels) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Renee Cortez, RHP (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Matt Craig, 3B (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jason DiAngelo, RHP (Rockies) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jose Espinal, RHP (White Sox) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Willy Espinal, RHP (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Omar Falcon, C (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Sal Frisella, OF (Cardinals) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jesus Guzman, 3B (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Justin Hatcher, C (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Clay Hensley, RHP (Padres) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Javier Herrera, OF (Athletics) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Billy Hogan, 3B (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Kervin Jacobo, 3B (Padres) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Ryan Leahy, SS (Angels) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Baltazar Lopez, 1B (Angels) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Robert Machado, C (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jesus Medrano, 2b (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Jacobo Meque, LHP (Padres) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Damian Moss, LHP (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Luis Perez, OF (Athletics) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Kevin Reinking, C (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Chris Russ, RHP (Rangers) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Mayobanex Santana, 3B (Athletics) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Nathan Sevier, RHP (Padres) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Darwin Soto, RHP (Mariners) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Carlos Vasquez, LHP (Cubs) - 1st Offense - 15 Games

Neil Wilson, C (Rockies) - 1st Offense - 15 Games


These are just the players who got caught. Caminitti said 50% of MLB'er were on steroids. Canseco says it's 85%. Maybe we're just going to have to admit it was the Droid hitters v. Droid pitchers era, accept it, fix it and move on. But where is the fix if there's no testing for HGH?

Thank you.

Does anyone on here honestly, sincerely believe that the number of players that used PEDs is small?
That only those caught or confronted were users?
That only a small percentage of players used?
Caminitti said at least 50%.
Canseco said 85%.
As crazy as those statements sounded at the time, most of what both of them said has been pretty accurate as this has played out.
So were they just wrong about that part?

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
What I find most shocking is how judgmental we all are. We are so quick to judge

"quick to judge"? It's been 12 years. How long do I wait? Didn't he admit it?

We all make judgments. Mac made bad ones - over, and over, and over. This was not a one time thing.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:


"quick to judge"? It's been 12 years. How long do I wait? Didn't he admit it?

Two MORE years?

The following would also apply to McGwire ....

George Will - Journalist

"(Barry) Bonds' records must remain part of baseball's history. His hits happened. Erase them and there will be discrepancies in baseball's bookkeeping about the records of the pitchers who gave them up. George Orwell said that in totalitarian societies, yesterday's weather could be changed by decree. Baseball, indeed America, is not like that. Besides, the people who care about the record book - serious fans - will know how to read it. That may be Bonds' biggest worry."

Quote Source: Townhall.com, May 12, 2006

ESPN has really hit bottom. They are really backing Mac. I'm paraphrasing here, but ... "1998 was fun, and good for the game, so cheating was worth it. Do what you need to do to win, kids."

My ghost is not happy.

"I won't be happy until we have every boy in America between the ages of six and sixteen wearing a glove and swinging a bat."

- Babe

All those lists, and not one of them really lists the guy who, to my thinking, ignited the whole era.

Who remembers the leadoff hitter, an OF known for his defense, who suddenly bulked up and hit 50 HR's one year?

Here are the career HR numbers for ... the Orioles' Brady Anderson:

1988 1 HR in 325 AB's

1989 4 HR's in 266 AB's

1990 3 HR's in 234 AB's

1991 2 HR's in 256 AB's

1992 21 HR's in 623 AB's

1993 13 HR in 560 AB's

1994 12 HR's in 453 AB's

1995 16 HR's in 554 AB's

1996 50 HR's in 579 AB's

And after that, he suddenly returned to numbers more typical to 1992-95, before calling it a career in 2002.

Career: 31 AB's per HR

1996: 11.6 AB's per HR

Career except for 1996: 37 AB's per HR

Prior to Brady Anderson, something like 10 guys had ever hit as many as 50 HR in a season. Hank Aaron never did it even once.

After seeing Anderson's stats, stardom and $$$, we can see how all of MLB reacted.

It had to be toughest on the guys in AA and AAA, feeling they were so close, if only they could get some extra edge to get them up there to the land of 400k/year minimum pay and who knows how much more. While we would all loved to have seen morality reign, with that kind of money at stake you could have predicted darned well exactly what was going to happen.

Costas had another comment recently on the steroids subject. While lauding Marvin Miller and supporting the idea that he should be elected to the HOF, he also expressed bewilderment at Miller's staunch opposition to PED testing. The fact is, both management and the players' union supported letting this all happen and sweeping it under the rug. Every darned one of them is guilty. That doesn't get McGwire off the hook, but pretty much anyone who knew what was happening and stood by and let it happen, or tacitly endorsed it happening, shares the blame.

On this day in 1999, Mark McGwire’s 70th home run ball was sold at auction in NYC for $3 million to an anonymous bidder.

Another McGwire record: Fastest depreciation of baseball memorabilia

quote:

It had to be toughest on the guys in AA and AAA, feeling they were so close, if only they could get some extra edge to get them up there to the land of 400k/year minimum pay and who knows how much more. While we would all loved to have seen morality reign, with that kind of money at stake you could have predicted darned well exactly what was going to happen.

Back when steroids were a public issue in the NFL there was a survey done of high school football players. The poll asked the high school players if they would take steroids knowing it might cause them to die in their 50's. Over 70% said they would do it. Many young people can't see over the hill to mortality. They can only see today and the potential success staring them in the face.

.

"Another McGwire record: Fastest depreciation of baseball memorabilia"

.

Being an O's fan, maybe Brady just started eating breakfast that one year...

I still beleive that players took steroids to stay longer in the game and to feel better, not necessarily for more power, speed, eyesight, etc. I also think that going back and assuming that those like Maris and Mantle were clean is wrong. Most players took something to either take away the pain after they played and to be "up" for gametime. There is NO way you can play this game feeling good all of the time.

The one good thing I feel that has come of all of this is better medical care for injured players. According to my understanding, years ago, when you weren't feeling well, let's say you had a bad backache, the trainer slapped some junk on your back, told you to toughen up and get back in the game. This is a macho thing that happens in sports, su ck it up and be a man. Also, I think most people, including myself, just do not understand the culture that existed and still does today.

Why do people do it? Most likely the pressure that's placed upon them for being who they are and high expectations, most likely when they were young.
In another post someone told me I should be careful what we say to our youth, so I heard something very interesting today about our ill feelings towards these guys (also referred to as cheaters) for trying to be their best and not disappoint, yet funny how we push our players to be bigger, better, faster than anyone else, we pay for lessons and take them to the gym way earlier than they should, we press young pitchers to increase their velocity quicker than it should happen for good scholarships or perhaps a draft number or bonus, we subject them to year round playing and sign them up for the best travel teams, after all, the more you play, the better the competition, the better you get. Then in our infinite wisdom we argue with the coach that our players should be playing over some other player because he is much better. Then our player grows up and suddenly he's not as good as everyone else, he struggles and then has some injury issues, perhaps he feels he has let a whole lot of people down, then what? For those of you that cry foul and judgemental, be careful what you say to your impressionable young players. I really thought that was an interesting take on one persons opinion on steroid use, and let's not always assume it's for the money.

I definetly have been disappointment towards those that felt that they were beyond the game and broke the rules, but back then, I'll bet most did. But sooner or later, most probably woke up some morning and looked themselves in the mirror and decided the risk, the embarrassment wasn't worth it.

Coach May said it very well.

What struck me most about the interview was the stubborn victim angle he clung to (despite all the evidence pointing otherwise) and how whiny, almost baby-like, his expressions and answers were to the tough questions. Hard to get sympathy with that approach.

I think people were very ready to forgive the guy and move on because, for one reason, apparently he is liked around the game (unlike Bonds) but personally I felt somehow cheated (again) after that interview.

The thing that really turned me off was his whine about how tough it was to do rehab and play each game all year and he turned to the PED for that reason. Compare that self serving approach to the only ex-baseball player we should be talking about in the off season- Andre Dawson. He had more injuries in his great career that MM but just did the best he could to stay healthy and did his rehab the right way.

Congrats to Andre Dawson on his HOF selection.

quote:

Originally posted by cwm:
Let's all give a standing ovation for.........Roger Maris, the true single season homerun king.

His integrity didn't "pay enough"...
Wouldn't trust him teaching/coaching...
"Great Pretender", in my book.

He only came clean in a sense and in the most self serving way. To sit there and say he still would have done all that he did even without steroids is a complete joke.

He keeps harping on (as do others that defend or deny steroid use) that steroids don't give you hand eye coordination and don't give you "baseball skills".

He is absolutely right in that BUT with the added strength, the ball you would have hit 320 feet is now going 400 feet. So the 'roids don't give you better hand eye coordination but the added strength puts that ball you just hit in a place it would not otherwise have gone.

And, he may be quite wrong as sufferers of certain medical conditions are given steroids to help their visual focus.

Also the 'roids help with quicker recovery time so you are apt to get in more games than you would otherwise.

they also give you a sense of euphoria and strength and confidince which is huge as you stare down a 100mph fastball and Mac keeps saying how he had such great mental strength.

He's finally opened up, but he still don't get it.

Thats exactly what I have been saying. These guys keep saying it didnt help their performance. They already had the gift. Fly balls that dont leave the park are outs. Fly balls that do make you alot of money and give you alot of fame. The difference in a gifted player who has some pop and a gifted player who has alot of pop is the difference we are talking about.

Just look at the photos of these guys. Look at the physical difference. Look how they got better when they should have been falling off. How anyone could not see this is simply amazing to me. A non gifted player who uses steroids is just a big strong non gifted player on steroids. A gifted player on steroids is a big strong gifted player who can achieve things otherwise he would not have been capable of achieveing. That is cheating the game , the other players and the fans.

Look if Mark didnt think or know that his steroid use gave him an unfair advantage why did he feel the need to call the Maris family and apologize? What did he apologize for? Come on enough if this its just a joke.

Is Selig behind the so-called "coming clean" so he can justify McGwire being back in baseball?

A lot of interesting scenarios evolving here

RJM, You show me a kid or anyone else under 225 pounds who adds 25 to 30 pounds of as I said lean cut muscle and they are juicing. Kids don't add muscle like that in 3 or 4 months. They might add weight but not muscle where every they are cut to the bone. No one does. Most of the time adding bulk while being totally ripped is achievable only with drugs. Believe me I watched guys abuse steroids for plastic trophies all through the 80's.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
RJM, You show me a kid or anyone else under 225 pounds who adds 25 to 30 pounds of as I said lean cut muscle and they are juicing. Kids don't add muscle like that in 3 or 4 months. They might add weight but not muscle where every they are cut to the bone. No one does. Most of the time adding bulk while being totally ripped is achievable only with drugs. Believe me I watched guys abuse steroids for plastic trophies all through the 80's.

My son was lean and cut on Nov 1 of 2008 at 5'11", 135. Four months later he was lean and cut at 6'1", 165. He ate like a hound. His diet was created by his mother who is a certified nutritionist and a personal trainer. He also drank protein shakes that the ingredients came from Whole Foods. He worked out five days a week. He won't touch carbonated drinks since they break down vitamins. His physical development was nothing but dedication to a routine during a growth burst. My kids have always looked thin and toned. My daughter is 5'10", 150 and looks a lot lighter. She went from 5'9", 115 to 5"10", 140 on the same routine over a few months (can't remember exactly how many).

RJM when he can do that after he is a mature adult lets say mid 20's and not use PED's then you have a story to tell.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I still beleive that players took steroids to stay longer in the game and to feel better, not necessarily for more power, speed, eyesight, etc. I also think that going back and assuming that those like Maris and Mantle were clean is wrong. Most players took something to either take away the pain after they played and to be "up" for gametime. There is NO way you can play this game feeling good all of the time.

The one good thing I feel that has come of all of this is better medical care for injured players. According to my understanding, years ago, when you weren't feeling well, let's say you had a bad backache, the trainer slapped some junk on your back, told you to toughen up and get back in the game. This is a macho thing that happens in sports, su ck it up and be a man. Also, I think most people, including myself, just do not understand the culture that existed and still does today.

Why do people do it? Most likely the pressure that's placed upon them for being who they are and high expectations, most likely when they were young.
In another post someone told me I should be careful what we say to our youth, so I heard something very interesting today about our ill feelings towards these guys (also referred to as cheaters) for trying to be their best and not disappoint, yet funny how we push our players to be bigger, better, faster than anyone else, we pay for lessons and take them to the gym way earlier than they should, we press young pitchers to increase their velocity quicker than it should happen for good scholarships or perhaps a draft number or bonus, we subject them to year round playing and sign them up for the best travel teams, after all, the more you play, the better the competition, the better you get. Then in our infinite wisdom we argue with the coach that our players should be playing over some other player because he is much better. Then our player grows up and suddenly he's not as good as everyone else, he struggles and then has some injury issues, perhaps he feels he has let a whole lot of people down, then what? For those of you that cry foul and judgemental, be careful what you say to your impressionable young players. I really thought that was an interesting take on one persons opinion on steroid use, and let's not always assume it's for the money.

I definetly have been disappointment towards those that felt that they were beyond the game and broke the rules, but back then, I'll bet most did. But sooner or later, most probably woke up some morning and looked themselves in the mirror and decided the risk, the embarrassment wasn't worth it.

Hate to sound like TR but how in the heck did you come up with that. You're dragging two of the most respected names in baeball thru the mud with absolutely no facts; just your gut feelings. That is ****.

regie


Don't feel bad--I have nightmares quite often trying to figure how TPM comes up with things

Though I have always questioned how Maris hit 61 hrs that year and never hit more than 39 before or after that record setting year

quote:

Though I have always questioned how Maris hit 61 hrs that year and never hit more than 39 before or after that record setting year

I'm willing to chalk it up to one of those years when EVERYTHING went right; Mantle protecting him in the lineup and absolutely "raking" (what 54 that yr. before the injury), the Yankee Stadium short right field porch was perfect for the Maris swing, AND it was a low Sun spot year and El Nino was active!

Maris, in his declining years, moved on after that to the "not so friendly" Non-confines of Busch Stadium and had a great "flyball" year(s).

Prime9,

All that and an expansion year to boot.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
regie

Though I have always questioned how Maris hit 61 hrs that year and never hit more than 39 before or after that record setting year

Expansion. LA Angels and Wash Senators were added in 1961 to the existing 8 AL teams. 25% dilution in pitching.

In Maris's book "61" he`states that the Yankee GM at that time (forget his name) met with him pior to the season and told him he specifically wanted him to "swing for the fences" vs. hitting for average (which he had done fairly successfully up until 61) because of his position in the lineup.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
RJM when he can do that after he is a mature adult lets say mid 20's and not use PED's then you have a story to tell.

I don't disagree with you. However, the challenge was "show me a kid ...."

I read that post right after I posted and then realized you were right. But I do think he was talking about mlb players who are in their prime or past it and then do this. I could be wrong though it wouldnt be the first time.

Boston Sunday Globe - Nick Carfaldo - Baseball Notes

McGwire needs second chance - at confession

When Alex Rodriguez revealed his steroid use last year, he needed a second interview, a “redo.’’ Why? Because he didn’t come off as believable the first time. And neither did Mark McGwire.

McGwire will likely have to do the same thing before he begins his job as hitting coach of the Cardinals this spring, because if he doesn’t, he’ll be hounded all year by the things he admitted to as well as the things he didn’t admit to.

What’s haunting McGwire is his contention that steroids did not enhance his performance, which nobody buys. McGwire needs to fess up that he used steroids not only to get back on the field from injuries, but also because there were direct benefits from them that led to more home runs. If he honestly doesn’t believe that, then there’s a lot of denial going on.

McGwire had about five years since his Congressional testimony to get this admission together. Since the admission, old teammate Jose Canseco has reiterated his contention that he stuck McGwire with a needle numerous times in the Oakland clubhouse. McGwire has denied this, but whom do you believe? Canseco has been spot-on with just about all of his steroid revelations, and he is only revealing things that he says he personally experienced or witnessed. While we understand that part of Canseco’s campaign is to profit through book sales, he seems to have been consistently correct with his allegations.

What’s interesting is that he has never thrown Roger Clemens under the bus, though he did indicate that Clemens once asked him about steroids.

According to a National League player, McGwire needs to change his story because “if he doesn’t come out and say, ‘yes, steroids helped me hit home runs,’ the media is not going to leave him alone. [Tony] La Russa will be asked about it every day, and he’ll start getting defensive and it’ll create the opposite of what they’re trying to create by having McGwire work with the hitters. You don’t want distractions. It’s got to be laid on the table.’’

Old friend Jack Clark told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that McGwire is “a sad excuse for a player in the industry of baseball. Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up. He should not be in baseball. He should be banned from baseball more than ever.’’

McGwire can only help himself if he abandons this ridiculous road he’s on. After A-Rod’s “redo,’’ the topic didn’t come up again for the entire 2009 season.