Blacks and baseball pt. 2

In todays business of baseball there appears to be equal opportunity for any group of people to work towards an opening to participate. Unlike the issue of segregation and bigotry that existed prior to Jackie Robinson, if a Black american is interested, that person can pursue an occupation in the Major Leagues.

The need for any determined minimum % makeup is 0. There are distinct reasons why from a business standpoint it would be beneficial to be the most popular game across all groups of people thus commanding the largest pool possible to draw revenue from. If baseball was the priority sport in the majority of homes in the US, stadiums would draw greater attendance, concession sales, product licensing, television revenue, ect... What business wouldn't like to control the market place?

Baseball today does not appear to be acting poorly with regards to active attempts to deny, but certainly could enhance their own business operations by enlarging their base of fans.

I think that the coupling of the celebration of Jackie Robinson and the discussion of black american participation have joined two vastly different situations and caused some misinterpretations. Closed door policy due to hatred and systematic bigotry is a far cry from declining participation due to circumstances that vary, but do not include institutional nonallowance.

I enjoy sports tremendously and the attributes of those that participate at the highest level. I want to see the sheer marvel that is the gift of those that uniquely seperate themselves in sport endevours for at the top the degree of difficulty is so extreme that it is special to see. Many feel it is easy, but that is such a delusion, those at the top are far superior than the mass that has participated below. I appreciate the play of sport and all I really want is to see the most that can be offered from whomever can acheive it.

Just wondering, if black households that now cherish football and basketball turned their desire strictly to baseball and began play in t-ball, what ppercentage of Major League Baseball do you think they might make up down the road? Oh and if those percentages were respective to the current ratios in football or basketball would baseball still be your preferred sport?

Although this may sound like a very simple question, but why are we counting, sorting, dividing,...
and not just playing?

Baseball and the players will always be my favorite, and they now come from all over the globe, PCX. Why would any of us change our feeling because the talent looks different. Its not most of us here who have a preference with who plays and who doesn't. I would like all who wish to be involved in this great game, to go as far as they like with as many opportunities as they can find. Why does one culture say that a certain game belongs to them, or that they don't like a certain game because they aren't represented well. I thought we were all americans, and we are now enjoying a more international game in our home country.

quote:

if black households that now cherish football and basketball turned their desire strictly to baseball and began play in t-ball, what ppercentage of Major League Baseball do you think they might make up down the road?

PCX, No doubt the percentages of blacks in baseball would increase but it would be at the expense of basketball and football creating the same concerns for those sports that are currently being expressed about baseball. I can hear the complaints now --- "All the good basketball courts are in the white neighborhoods and everyone knows the streets are too narrow in the intercity to run effective pass patterns and the cost of football equipment is cost prohibitive and only available to those rich white kids” Some might even say that basketballs and footballs need air and all the service stations have moved out leaving the inner-city kids with no place to air up their balls. Maybe we should do as shortstopmom suggest and just "play ball!”

...and to expand on Moc's exceedingly valid point:

Is there a magical non-problem minimum percentage of Black players? Then, is there a maximum non-problem number of Black players? Ask the same questions of White, Asian, and Latin players.

It's rather like the old Playing Time question: putting one guy on the field takes another guy off. If Blacks are under-represented, then someone is over-represented. Latin players are at around 25%, so evidently MLB needs to start cutting Latino players....unless they can also be classified by race as well as ethnicity and therefore the percentage of Black players might rise.

We like to say that in America, Land of Opportunity, that you can be anything you want to be. However, the level of opportuntiy (as well as talent and interest) is not distributed equally. So it goes.

If baseball had turned into a Rich Man's Sport (as golf and tennis are perceived), or were still preventing a group from participating, I would see this as a much bigger problem.

Play ball.

quote:

Originally posted by shortstopmom:
Although this may sound like a very simple question, but why are we counting, sorting, dividing,...
and not just playing?

Best response yet.

I thought that most of us were!

Fungo,

Earlier you offered the names of Sharpton and Jackson, two names often characterized in the white community as complainers, so I imagine you would hear the complaints. I offered the names of Johnson and Graves two extremely successful business men whose track records reflect worked at acheivement as counter personalities.

Coachric,

I posed a question no different than Moc1. As you have speculated on how most might feel it is still not all. Preference may be an answer to your question, but I usually ask a question to hear from another, not answer it.

I am not in the business of baseball so for me I enjoy seeing people playing and at the highest level the play of the extreme.

What ever your opinion or ideas it is not my intention to battle, but to share my perspective as my experiences would allow.

As always those with the enthusiasm for a worthy cause are to be commended for promoting baseball.

quote:

by Bee>: - MLB is a piker by comparison to NFL/NBA in marketing their game to youngsters

did I really say that??


a reminder regarding an opportunty at hand ...

this weekend Lebron's Shooting Star Classic takes place in our Area -
470 teams ranging from age 10-17, college coaches and NBA guys from across the country - TV coverage by Fox Sports.

That's a gathering of roughly 40,000 kids + parents, fans, and coaches ... also media & agents
judging by last yrs tv coverage a high % are urban & black ...

they've been arriving in plush charter busses or flashy SUV's - reminiscent of Atlanta during the NBA all-star weekend. hotels are full & resturants are packed -

well wishes to anyone willing to take the opportunity to (try to) convince some they need to change sports because well meaning/smart folks have determined that baseball is under-represented.


a great chance for Shep fly in .. do his baseball promo thing AND see the Hornke kid he likes from Hudson

PCX, I agree that MLB could do a lot better at marketing. And you mentioned some very valuable people to lead the effort. The NBA however has eventually let the inmates run the asylum. And the league is now suffering for it.
To answer some others about the financial state of baseball at youth levels, the latin american kids have no money, no marketing program, and yet they are producing some of the worlds finest players.

quote:

by PCX: black Americans participate in fewer numbers at all ages of baseball including the Major Leagues is because it is by far one of the worst at Marketing itself.

btw II,
for the past week or so NFL draft coverage has been ramping up to fever pitch - with dedicated special programming, comentaries, interviews, predictions, & war room rumors ...
also live updates a few times an hour -

today it will be covered live from pre-begining to end for about 8 hours on ESPN (+ network coverage)
tonight there will be coverage of parties w/balloons & more interviews
tomorrow & next week it will be analyzed, re-analyzed ... then experts will analyze the analysis



re: the MLB draft the fans do have BA's fine print coverage - alot of is by subscription only
how does a regular kid have access to that?

then, come draft day, baseball fans who are aware it IS draft day are huddled around a computer - banging on it and cussing because the streaming 3" video feed won't load properly

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
the MLB draft the fans do have BA's fine print coverage - tho alot of good stuff is by subscription only

then, come draft day baseball fans everywhere are huddled around a computer - banging on it becuase the streaming 3" video feed won't load properly

There is no comparison. But if I am fortunate enough to have my son considered for the top rounds next year, I'm not sure I would want things any different. Sometimes I really don't like the all the hype.

Bee>,
You are funny.

Correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that many black NFL and NBA players also played baseball during their youth. Did any MLB players play football and basketball during their youth? Doesn't preference come down in the end to where your talents lie?
Ask my son he would tell you that he would have loved to have tried to play basketball for a living but he was just too darned SLOW.


I agree with SSM, let's just play ball.

quote:

by infidel: I'm not sure I would want things any different. Sometimes I really don't like the all the hype

that's a fair enough statement ... but you're kidding right?
anyway it's really not about you

that hype as you call it generates interest for the fans & prospective fans, and media. it sells merchandise, AND hooks young fans on the game to assure another generation of butts in the seats wearing liscensed clothing -
AND DRAWS KIDS TO PLAY THE SPORT, dreaming of getting good enough to someday be in that spotlight

quote:

by TPM: Correct me if I am wrong

my point being that it seems an undisputed fact in this thread is that many young (black) athletes
are being drawn away from baseball to other sports ..

I'm just noting my take on how the other sports seem to be accomplishing that feat

I think every kid should get a chance to play whatever sport they would like to play.
And that we as adults should provide that opportuinity.
Know matter where that child live's.

I know when I was growing up, I lived in what you would call a Town.
Know Boy's are Girls Club's in are town.
Know YMCA, Are Field house to play Basketball.
Just concrete with a basket with know net.
You could not call them baseball field's, Except for the bases.
There was know Pop Warner Football, LL, Or AAU basketball.
Just what ever activity's the school put together.

Every kid has needs in this country. Let's provide it for them??

Quote by Bee: "a great chance for Shep fly in .. do his baseball promo thing AND see the Hornke kid he likes from Hudson"-End of Quote

Bee>
Never been much of a "charma" , but that's what I call "good karma". peace shep

quote:

by Shep: that's what I call "good karma". peace shep

I'll get out to see them if it warms up & chk a pm

I don't see how the drafts can be compared at all. The NFL draft has players that will probably be starters on their teams right away. Except for maybe the QB's. Baseball players get drafted and disappear into the minor leagues for several years. Plus the fact that the football players are much better known on draft day due to the popularity of college football. And even with all the hype, the football draft is about the 1st round only. Interest wanes very quickly as the 2nd round moves into the 3rd round and so on.

Baseball fans are more likely to be tracking their favorite teams minor league system for potential talent.

Attended a dinner last nite where Boston Red Sox great , Jim Rice , was guest speaker---the question was asked of him regarding the lack of blacks in baseball---his answer was simple---the black youth looks at football and basketball as the quick route to big bucks, as hee termed it the "quick fix"---not mention the abundance of college scholarships in both sports compared to those in baseball


Interesting to hear since it came from one of the first black players in Red Sox Annals

It is interesting...I think he's alot right.

Although football is a "tougher" sport (BB catchers might disagree!)...I believe it is much more difficult to hit a nasty curve, or 95 mph fastball...and degree of difficulty may play. (Not that blacks are not CAPABLE of doing so...that is simply NOT the case)
Lots of factors.

Money is a recurring theme throughout this thread. All kids are motivated more or less by money, and there are a lot of black kids that fully understand their best chance at making real money is via a college education.
As for the quick fix, I couldn't agree with Rice more. Some lives are in greater need of repair than others.
One last thought...wouldn't more college schollys get greater athletes of all ethnicities playing the greatest game?

In the long run schollys would help, but it goes way back...much earlier in life. (I believe this has been discussed), but it falls on the fact that a young kid can walk to a Bball court-without Dad...someone usually has a ball. Baseball requires more time, effort and accessibility to fields. And frankly, in many peer circles it is not considered cool to play baseball.
PG started a thread on childhood memories of baseball and how it sparks a lifetime love of the game. That is pertinent here.

IMHO African-Americans and other minorities have chosen to avoid playing baseball

For them it is much easier in football and basketball...the requisites to play are more defined and easily understood and less likely to be influenced by factors that have nothing to do with their athletic desire, talent and abilities.

JMO

LLorton, your opinion is actually an accusation. And an ignorant one at that. If I read the first line you wrote correctly, you feel black kids avoid contact on the ballfield with white people because the white people are racist and treat them unfairly. If that were true, we should see lots of black kids playing baseball by themselves, with no whites around. But we don't, do we. Using your logic, we shouldn't see any black kids around any organized sport where whites are in charge. They would be relegated to the bench in whatever the sport and want to avoid it.

Reading this thread and articles on other websites, there is a noticable pattern. While many reasons are given for the decline of blacks in baseball, all the reasons point to problems with someone or something other than the black kids who are playing. If only they had more places to play, if only they had more money, if only they had a better family life, if only MLB would do more, if only the current black pros would do more, if only if only if only, etc, etc. One need only go back and re-read any article on this subject since Jackie Robinson day to see that this is true.

The reality is that the white athlete is the one who suffers from institutionalized racism in this country, not the black athlete. But you will never see that kind of article in the mainstream media.

Baseball and basketball, Plus some other sport's.
Do not allow you to take a few years off and then come back and play at a high caliper.
It just doesn't work that way for those sports.
You have to play, and play, and play, every year for the most part.
I believe a kid could have success in football and other sport's even if he/she never played it as a youth.
Maybe some taller player's may be able to play basketball later in there hs school years.
But not a point guard with ball handleing skills.
But baseball, you can't afford to take a couple of years off and perform well.
It take's playing time, and lots of it.
Fields and equipment.
And then the human factor.
You have to have someone willing to put in the time with the youth to promote the sport.
It really is that simple.
EH

quote:

The reality is that the white athlete is the one who suffers from institutionalized racism in this country, not the black athlete. But you will never see that kind of article in the mainstream media.

This statement transcends ignorance. There's good reason why you won't see this sort of bigotry in the media. David Duke might write it, but no one in their right mind would publish.

The whole racism aspect of this thread is near ridiculous. On both sides. I don't think most coaches would give a hoot what your skin color is if you can play. Are there some? Sure, perhaps, but they would represent a very small percentage.

No legislation, no guilt, and no blame. That's a waste of time. On the other hand, baseball people should always be interested in promoting this great game, and reaching out and getting some kids interested who would otherwise play basketball or football.. hey, why not?

Even in the white neighborhoods here, basketball has largely replaced baseball as the national pasttime. And that worries me. We should promote the game across the board to reinvigorate it!

Dear Old Dad said: LLorton, your opinion is actually an accusation. And an ignorant one at that. If I read the first line you wrote correctly, you feel black kids avoid contact on the ballfield with white people because the white people are racist and treat them unfairly. If that were true, we should see lots of black kids playing baseball by themselves, with no whites around. But we don't, do we. Using your logic, we shouldn't see any black kids around any organized sport where whites are in charge. They would be relegated to the bench in whatever the sport and want to avoid it.
_____________________________________________________

I think we can all agree that as any parent will attest to, no matter what their background or ethnicity, their own child is the most important entity in any athletic endeavor.

The only inference and point that I was making is that minority parents will encourage their children to play in activities where they know that their own child will have a long term chance at a full scholarship if that child shows a real knack for excellence in athletics.

Right now, the way things are, one does not have to be a genious to deduce that minorities are not being promoted at the same level as white athletes in baseball. How do we determine that? Most would say by looking at the results of who is playing on the fields.

If I was a parent watching the College World Series and didn't know any better, as a minority parent, I would definitely discourage my child from playing baseball, no matter how great I thought the game was. Why? because one can see that African-American ballplayers are not making it through the developmental levels. Does this mean that great athletes that are on display in football and basketball just can't make it in baseball? Can one say that they just don't have what it takes? I think a member of the LA Dodger organization some years back made that kind of statement about why African-Americans couldn't be GM's. He was run out of baseball.

IMHO there is no one single reason why African-Americans and other minority players aren't thriving in baseball, but it is not ignorant to deduce from the history of baseball that inter-racial relationships aren't affected by economic class and strata. As more African-Americans enter the middle-class and other higher levels of economic ability to pay I am sure that things will change.

Lastly, lets not ignore that ticket prices at baseball games require that baseball fans have a level of discretionary income to afford the cost. That reality is not lost on the MLB when it provides its marketing and financial support for development programs at all levels including LL. HS, and colleges. It is competing for that dollar from every family to spend it on baseball. African-Americans have made their choice of where to put their dollars and for now it looks like that choice is football and basketball.

I would like to see the organizations compete more for the African-American and other minority ballplayers instead of outsourcing that talent from offshore. But I don't think that will change until there is more of a base of African-American families that truely believe their prized possession, their child, will get a better shake to develope in baseball.

quote:

(a) I think we can all agree that as any parent will attest to, no matter what their background or ethnicity, their own child is the most important entity in any athletic endeavor.

(b) The only inference and point that I was making is that parents will encourage their children to play in activities where they know that their own child will have a long term chance at a full scholarship if that child shows a real knack for excellence in athletics.

(c) Right now, the way things are, one does not have to be a genious to deduce that minorities are not being promoted at the same level as white athletes in baseball. How do we determine that? Most would say by looking at the results of who is playing on the fields.

This thread is starting to degenerate imho.

(a) We can all agree to that.

(b) Say what? My kids played baseball, basketball, and football when they were young because they enjoyed playing. I never ran across anyone white or black that said their kid was initially playing a sport for the scholarship opportunities. In high school, there were some of those type of decisions made, but that was well after a kid was already playing a given sport for the love/interest of/in the game.

(c) Are you serious? Lets look at the NBA and college basketball for that matter. Using your logic, you don't have to be a genious to deduce that whites are not being promoted at the same level as black athletes in basketball?

Curious why are you looking out over the field and seeing color btw? Isn't it possible people choose certain sports over others and it is no more complicated than that? Does everything have to be explained in terms of race? The economic arguments make some sense to me. The racial arguments do not.

ClevelandDad-You're right on with your last post.

Sadly, logic does not seem to be important to a number of posters on this subject.

Let me give you another aspect on this question:

As those who know our team can tell you that we are quite diversified in our make up with whites, blacks, dominicans, puerto ricans etc on the roster.

Last year we were playing in PA and the coach of the other team asks us how we do it, meaning getting the kids we get. He continues to tell us that nearly 50% of the local school is Latino but none of them come out for baseball and he cannot figure out why.


Choices folks---choices

just wondering ...

wouldn't someone who encourages participation ONLY in groups with a certain racial make-up be by definition a .. racist?



speaking of team make-up, how 'bout our NBA Cavs??

they have short guys, tall guys ..
guys w/tatoos & w/out tatoos ..
guys that play & guys that sit ..
short haired guys, & Varejao with a mop on his head ..

A baseball team is made up of 9 players.

It takes two teams to play a game.

That's 18 human beings that choose to come together to participate in a great game called baseball.

Now granted, if you want to get fancy, you can always throw in some coaches, add a few umpires, some talent, a competitive nature, and walah.....now you're capable of making history.

IMHO, there are no other prerequisites required to play.
Its simply about human beings, playing the game.

When I watch a game, I see humans and notice different levels of talent.
Its simple, but it keeps me intrigued.
( would probably still enjoy watching the game if I could train my cats to play,..or even my pet goldfish.)

Its about the game. Not religion, language, color of eyeballs, or the size of a persons left pinky toe.

Its simply about the game.