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54 replies

"Borderline Pitches"

H HaverDad500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by shortstop: Some of these (Big 12) umps would call the chalk of batter box a strike, I would say that is 6 inches outside. By the way I have video of it


One reason I am so tuned to this isssue, is because I caught from age 8-18 including Legion ball (played 3rd in college), and I still see the game as a catcher.

BUT!!! strike zone distortion was really pounded into me while shooting 100+ game videos of my son, with the camera set-up on the outside corner. Perhaps its because I replayed some of these roague umps quite often as we edited my son's skills video, but I have a very bad taste for how bad (and consistently wrong) this minority blue group can be.

Why not just call all runners safe if they get 89 feet up the first base line before the ball reaches the 1st baseman? Thats just as arbitrary and arrogant as when an ump ignores the rule book to enforce "my (personal) zone".

I must admit Piaa Ump made me smile with his "come to Jesus" approach, but I'm thinking there aren't many guys who will (privately) mention to their ump partner, that the zone has flipped on its side. Otherwise we would see it less.

Factor in this evidence from TW344's umpire clinic quote:
"I call that outside pitch two baseballs off the plate. I do that because a) a good hitter should be able to hit that pitch and the pitcher needs all the help he can get" or b) "I will not call that inside pitch unless the whole baseball is over the plate and that makes things even."

and the evidence is clear.

When any umpire distorts the zone.....either by forcing pitchers to groove the ball, or keeping hitters from ever seeing a hittable pitch, the game is damaged.
Last edited by HaverDad
N NelMember
TW344 refers to the strike zone...."both the white and black part of the plate" ...However, the black is not part of the plate ...never has been ...it was added as a safety feature years ago ie. "save-a-leg" I do not think many coaches ,umpires and certainly young players are aware of this fact.TW344 might know it.. but it seemed to me he is including the black as part of the plate .
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
The black is not part of the rule book zone.

In higher baseball the black beveled edge is not even visible since it is buried below the ground. But most certainly at the levels of baseball below college and pro the black is considered part of the plate for the purpose of calling balls and strikes....

Part of it has to do with the fact that the black is a half inch wide and the baseball is 3inches wide...a ball passing over the black can also be in the zone....asking amateur umpires to not call the black and Youth pitchers to not expect the strike call on the black is not realistic.

The vast majority of umpires,players and coaches expect a minimum of a ball width on the edges of the plate to be called a strike......
dad10dad10100+ posts
I really enjoy this umpire forum immensely. You guys impress me.

On a topic somewhat related to the discussion here, how do you guys handle a situation where a team is trying desperately to get a baserunner, and the batter goes up and gets into an un-natural crouch in order to shrink the strike zone and hopefully get a BB? One of our parents was videotaping the game and the batter's stance changed, not quite drastically, but a good amount, from his first at-bats to his at-bat in the 9th.
Last edited by dad10
F fvb10100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dad10:
how do you guys handle a situation where a team is trying desperately to get a baserunner, and the batter goes up and gets into an un-natural crouch in order to shrink the strike zone and hopefully get a BB? One of our parents was videotaping the game and the batter's stance changed, not quite drastically, but a good amount, from his first at-bats to his at-bat in the 9th.


Unfortuantely this tactic can be rather sucessful, just look at Ricky Henderson and the number of walks he drew. In such a situation the umpire tries to base his strike calls based on the batter's "natural stance" whatever that is. Usually it means the stance he is in as he addresses the ball. That is much easier said than done, though because the batter has changed all of the umpire's refernce points.
T TW344100+ posts
Nel:

Understand where you are coming from and your are technically correct. But the topic is "borderline" pitches and I think Haverdad's post sums it up best. To put it another way, as an umpire I must call a pitch a strike if ANY PART OF THE BASEBALL passes through any part of the "white" plate. A very close borderline pitch would be a pitch where some of the baseball passed over the black and perhaps the edge of a seam passed over the white because of the movement of the ball as it went through the three dimensional zone. But if I clearly see that none of the baseball even passed over the black, it is a clearly a ball. So, as piaa_ump says, at the levels at least I have umpired, Division II college, high school and below, the black is helpful to me in calling a borderline pitch a strike or a ball but if I know it never saw white at any point in its flight through the zone, I call it a ball.

dad10:

To answer your question, the up and down part of the strike zone is established by where the hitter positions his body right before contact with the ball or, where his crouch or knee bend or waist bend puts him when he swings. The most famous application of this was Bill Veck's use of Eddie Goddell[sp?] as a pinch hitter in an actual MLB game. Eddie Goddell was a midget and he crouched over so much that his actual up and down strike zone was probably only one or at the most two baseballs high. Naturally he was walked on 4 straight pitches; not so much because the big league pitcher could not throw the ball that precisely, because he could, but because he was laughing so hard.

Anyway, a good umpire will establish the up and down zone with the hitter's normal crouch until he swings and, if that swing brings him either out of his crouch or more into a crouch, then that will be the strike zone for that hitter for the rest of the game. If he comes up later and crouches down further then he did before when he was swinging, I will call the pitches both up in the zone and down in the zone according to crouch I remember and not the one he is now adopting. I hope that makes sense. It is after all three in the morning and I can't sleep.

TW344
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
if the black is not part of the plate ..then it is not part of the plate...any diversion to this is making up rules as you go along ....which puts you in a situation of playing sandlot ball instead of playing by the rules...


Nel,
Questec is the only device that can do what you say. Humans can't. At pitching speeds that we see on a regular basis, it just isnt possible and I have been working on my zone for 20 years....... Anyone who says it can be done by a human has never umpired......

Neither team wants that zone called......
dad10dad10100+ posts
As a former coach and a parent (and a reluctant ump at the LL level) I actually like the subtle differences between umpires. It's a good learning experience for hitters and pitchers alike. I'm not talking about the 6" off the plate guys, but the subtle differences between, say, the way piaa_ump calls each corner and the way another good ump calls them. I enjoy watching my son adjust and adapt.

Just another one of the subtleties of baseball that make this great game new and interesting.

(It's also kinda fun watching some coach go ballistic for no good reason over it, although I really don't like the ump bashing aspect of it, just the bursting blood vessel and frantic pacing and grousing is often amusing.)
N NelMember
quote:
Originally posted by TW344:
Nel:

Understand where you are coming from and your are technically correct. But the topic is "borderline" pitches and I think Haverdad's post sums it up best. To put it another way, as an umpire I must call a pitch a strike if ANY PART OF THE BASEBALL passes through any part of the "white" plate. A very close borderline pitch would be a pitch where some of the baseball passed over the black and perhaps the edge of a seam passed over the white because of the movement of the ball as it went through the three dimensional zone. But if I clearly see that none of the baseball even passed over the black, it is a clearly a ball. So, as piaa_ump says, at the levels at least I have umpired, Division II college, high school and below, the black is helpful to me in calling a borderline pitch a strike or a ball but if I know it never saw white at any point in its flight through the zone, I call it a ball.

dad10:

To answer your question, the up and down part of the strike zone is established by where the hitter positions his body right before contact with the ball or, where his crouch or knee bend or waist bend puts him when he swings. The most famous application of this was Bill Veck's use of Eddie Goddell[sp?] as a pinch hitter in an actual MLB game. Eddie Goddell was a midget and he crouched over so much that his actual up and down strike zone was probably only one or at the most two baseballs high. Naturally he was walked on 4 straight pitches; not so much because the big league pitcher could not throw the ball that precisely, because he could, but because he was laughing so hard.

Anyway, a good umpire will establish the up and down zone with the hitter's normal crouch until he swings and, if that swing brings him either out of his crouch or more into a crouch, then that will be the strike zone for that hitter for the rest of the game. If he comes up later and crouches down further then he did before when he was swinging, I will call the pitches both up in the zone and down in the zone according to crouch I remember and not the one he is now adopting. I hope that makes sense. It is after all three in the morning and I can't sleep.

TW344
N NelMember
tw344....good reply ...that is exactly what i meant!...Furthermore, when it comes to true border line calls ,you can't get it right every time but you have to try to call it correct as you see it or you will be all over the place in your consistancy or lack there of....Borderline is not borderline just because it is ordinarily close ....Borderline borders on undiscernable........
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