Buck fired

Did his strategy buckfire on him? Oh well, guess you could the Buck stops here.

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Did his strategy buckfire on him? Oh well, guess you could the Buck stops here.

LOL. You ought to be shot! I'll use "buckshot". Sorry couldn't resist.

Guess I had that one coming...

I am fairly certain many clubs will say to go ahead and "pass the Buck!"

What the Buck?

How many times does a manager go from Manager of the Year to getting let go the next year? I bet it's more often than I would've originally thought, but honestly I've never seen a manager fall out of such graces with the city/community in such a short time.

I guess they got less bang for their Buck!

Guess he didn't "Show" them the results they were looking for.

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Originally posted by Dtiger:
How many times does a manager go from Manager of the Year to getting let go the next year? I bet it's more often than I would've originally thought, but honestly I've never seen a manager fall out of such graces with the city/community in such a short time.

Dtiger,

In your youthful outlook, how do you think examples such as this affect society in relation to amatuer baseball?

Good or bad?

I don't know that Buck fell out of favor any faster than Joe Girardi at the Florida Marlins. He just got fired after one season and he is the leading candidate for NL Manager of the Year.

KG- I'll answer your question when I have more time.

T-Bird- Do you think Girardi fell out of favor with the fans or with the front office people? Or it could've been both.

Been rumored Joe fell out of favor with his players mid season. They weren't used to his work ethic. Joe's mistake was imposing that work ethic on them. I'll reserve further comment.

It has been reported that Girardi had a run-in or two with the owner, one in particular was very public --- the quickest way to lose favor! With the egos in baseball, you can win 100 games and lose your job quickly --- the owners think, "anyone can manage this team"....hmmm, that mentality isn't reserved for baseball, is it?

Panther Dad: You give the Marlins owners (historically) too much credit. They are not capable of thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
KG- I'll answer your question when I have more time.

T-Bird- Do you think Girardi fell out of favor with the fans or with the front office people? Or it could've been both.

Dtiger-What PD said above...he fell out of favor with ownership...I would like Jon Daniels to look at Girardi.

Managers work at the behest of their owners/GM's, just as the rest of us. We make our bosses mad by not performing or not toting the company line, we are out of work. No different.

Giradi is a great manager, but will not be hired here because of his public falling out with the owner in Florida....plain and simple. Not many of us can get away with calling out our bosses in front of 25,000 people and get away with it, no matter how good you are.

I think Rudy Jaramillo will end up with the job here....at least that's what I'm hoping for. Because if we don't give him a shot, somebody in the league will.

Girardi got fired because he did not get along with the owner after tellilng him to shut up during a game;did not get along with the gm,after he disobeyed orders and sent a pitcher back on the mound after a rain delay and the pitcher hurt his elbow;was a control freak,like Buck.
Buck needs to lighten up A LOT if he wants to manage again.

The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been the Rangers will never have pitching. No matter who the owner, GM or manager.

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Originally posted by KellerDad:
Managers work at the behest of their owners/GM's, just as the rest of us. We make our bosses mad by not performing or not toting the company line, we are out of work. No different.

If this is fact, which it could be, then why is the turnover much greater today vs. 20 years ago with managerial positions regarding baseball? Have owners taken a larger part in decision making? Does the media have more power today? Or has society, in this case in regards to baseball, in general learned not to take responsibility for their immediate actions?

And remember, comments about managerial firings and such are communicated simply on what's read through the media.

Simply saying.............

Don't always believe what you read or what you see on TV.

Also, what happened to the days of Tommy Lasorda and Billy Martin?

I remember those two managers having several losing seasons along with several championships.

Which, my point being............is there any chance that the players on the field are directly responsible for a winning or losing season?

Which is why I asked for comment from DTiger on how he thought it all relates to amatuer baseball?

Suggesting, what happens at the major level is soon enough accepted through lower ranks. Thus is why we see more turnover at the collegiate level today than 20 years ago.

Bottom line........................

I think we as society learn to pass the blame onto what is "supposed" to be management instead of blaming who is directly responsible.

In this case............the players.

If it takes 1 person (manager) to motivate a team, than I think that the individuals that make that team need to be in question.

Girardi was fired because he told the owner to shut up and sit down during a game in which the owner was all over the umps for balls and strikes. He felt the owner was hurting the team. girardi is old school and the players, fans, and press liked him. He got on bad terms with the owner and the front office people felt he was hard to deal with and kept leaking information to the press about Girardi. That is something almost unheard of in baseball.

Girardi will have no problem finding a job. There are six players on the Yankees who make more than the entire Marlins club. He took a team with no expectations and made them competitive and fun.

Whoever takes over will get a young, hungry team with a really good young pitching staff.

As far as Girardi being a perfectionist and tough on the players? With that many young guys straight up from the Minor Leagues you need a tough hand and they knew it.

The new manager has a great minor league system to work with.

KG, are you going to turn this thread into another social commentary? I agree times have changed. Every sport has turned into "what have you done for me lately." It is big cutthroat business and that has been a cause of a lot of change. Everything is OK to get what you want. Let's not just turn it into certain segments of population. The whole culture has changed. Just the way it is.

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KG, are you going to turn this thread into another social commentary?

I just like to see a little intellect in threads. You know, to search for truth rather than assumptions.

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The whole culture has changed. Just the way it is.

But for good or bad?

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Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
But for good or bad?

Moot point unless one tries to change it for the better.

The truth is pitching and defense wins championships and the Rangers will never have pitching. You are right Ken, some of this falls on the players but not the position ones.
The Rangers are only looking to be in the black each year like any business.
They just don’t understand the formula. Pitching = Winning, winning = championships, championships = butts in seats, butts in seats = $.

Unless you are the Cubs, Harley Davison or The Grateful Dead, that sheople follow no matter what, then you need to perform.

Harley Davidson must be putting butts in the seats, they are sure making the $$.

Mostly sheople butts and wannabe’s.
Amateur ball is no different if you want to win and have a successful organization.

Agree with you KG 100%

Our society has changed, or should I say evolved into a SHIFT THE BLAME mentality. Keep track of times you hear the words "I was wrong on that one" for a week. Next Thursday ~ You'll still be waiting! Nowdays ~ It's always someone's fault other than the guy in the mirror.

When your players are making $1 million,$5 million or $10 million a year and have endorsement packages exceeding those figures, how do you manage them?

I'm thinking athletes are like movie stars - they have their own agents, managers and handlers. They have multiple contracts to draw income from and many ways to be successful or fail and team performance is just one element. Individual performance is another and so are image and marketability. The most a manager can do these days is try to get some of the players' attention and align some of their goals with the teams.

And why is it this way? Because consumers will pay for it whether it's $50 tickets, $7 beers, $150 Nikes, the NFL channel, Pay per View, etc.

The pressure on A-Rod to perform is not coming from Joe Torre.

And I do think this trickles down to amateur sports.

Billy Martin and not being fired in the same sentence confuses me.

From Wikipedia:

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In 1969, Martin became manager of the Minnesota Twins and won a division championship in his first season. He was fired after the season following a fight with one of his pitchers, Dave Boswell.

He managed the Detroit Tigers from 1971 to 1973, taking the team to first place in 1972 but was fired in 1973 for ordering his pitchers to throw at batters.

He then moved to the Texas Rangers, where he took the club from last place to second place in 1974, but was fired in 1975.

He returned to the Yankees for the first of his managerial stints in 1975, and took the Yankees to the World Series in 1976 and 1977, winning the 1977 World Series. He feuded publicly with both Yankee owner George Steinbrenner and star outfielder Reggie Jackson. He briefly resigned in 1978 after telling reporters, "They deserve each other. One's a born liar [Jackson], and the other's convicted [Steinbrenner]" (Martin was referring to Steinbrenner's conviction for making illegal donations to Richard Nixon's 1972 election campaign). He returned in 1979, only to be fired after a fight with a marshmallow salesman.

Martin resurfaced with the Oakland Athletics, where he perfected a style of play that became known as "Billyball." He won the Western Division title in the split season of 1981, swept the Royals in the special division series, and then met up with the Yankees in the 1981 ALCS where his A's were swept by the Yankees. Martin was fired when the 1982 Athletics plummeted to a 68-94 record. Martin had overused Oakland's young pitchers and they all developed sore arms. He returned to the Yankees in 1983, 1985, and 1988, but never for more than one full season.

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Originally posted by swingdoctor14:
Agree with you KG 100%

Our society has changed, or should I say evolved into a SFIFT THE BLAME mentality. Keep track of times you hear the words "I was wrong on that one" for a week. Next Thursday ~ You'll still be waiting! Nowdays ~ It's always someone's fault other than the guy in the mirror.

And again.....proof for those who have had experience will understand what I am talking about.

Thanks for understanding swingdoc.

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Originally posted by Krace4:
When your players are making $1 million,$5 million or $10 million a year and have endorsement packages exceeding those figures, how do you manage them?

Easy......don't give them the money.

You can't blame the monsters if you make the monsters.

And give some authority back to the managers...........

Then the managers have to have some sack and do whats right when a player steps out of line or does not perform. Regardless of how much money they make.

But that will never happen in the new society. Because people see through rose colored glasses and get caught up in all of the hoop la. And they are afraid to lose their job.

Question.........is Joe Torre a good manager or does he have good players?

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Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
But for good or bad?

Moot point unless one tries to change it for the better.

Much easier said than done.

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Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
How many times does a manager go from Manager of the Year to getting let go the next year? I bet it's more often than I would've originally thought, but honestly I've never seen a manager fall out of such graces with the city/community in such a short time.

Dtiger,

In your youthful outlook, how do you think examples such as this affect society in relation to amatuer baseball?

Good or bad?

Back to this question. After reading reasons on why he was fired one reason given was that the players could not adapt to his work ethic... if this is true (which I'm not saying it isn't) then I must say it gives the wrong message. It's one thing for a coach to be a control freak, it's another for a coach to constantly push his players. If my coach isn't constantly challenging me... then is he doing his job? If you consider my opinion similar to most middle age teenagers, then you'll think that we really don't care who the manager is. There is one exception to that and that is Joe Torre. I have watched, listened, and read about Mr. Torre and honestly his style, his philosophies, his sense of confidence seem to exemplify everything a coach should be. He lets his players play, while pushing buttons. Somehow he's managed to convince Sheffield to play first base-something I thought was impossible. Yes I respect other managers, but as a kid, as a player, as a student of the game, I know no-matter what coach I'm playing for, I'm playing my heart out. The success or failure of the team relies on me personally, and I feel every player should feel that way. Although you guys/gals have heard my disagreements with my high school coach, when it game-time comes, there is no other kid on the field that wants to win as bad as I do. I can't say I want to win it for him- I feel if you ever try to win a game "for someone," your playing for the wrong reasons. You want to win for everyone (teammates, coaches, parents, community). I hope this lengthy answer helps your question.

In short- kids play to play, we watch because we love it, whoever is sitting on the bench is doing just that-siting on the bench-not playing.

I guess Joe Torre is a good manager if his team wins.

Certainly what it takes to manage the Yankees is different than what it takes to manage the Rangers, or the Marlins.

This is somewhat of a circular discussion.

What do you mean by "new society"? When did that start and what started it?

Joe Torre's record as a manager:

Atlanta 486 257 229 .529
NewYorkM 709 286 420 .405
NewYorkY 1780 1079 699 .607
St.Louis 706 351 354 .498
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 3681 1973 1702 .537


Other than his stint with the Yankee's, I would say he wasn't the greatest manager in the world if you look at his numbers. He took Atlanta to the playoffs in his first year after which his team finished 2nd and a distant third, and then he was let go by the organization.

It wasn't until he came to a team loaded with talent that he was "successful" in the fact he won the World Series. I would go out on a limb and say that his days are numbered this year in NY if he doesn't win it all.

When you have a payroll that is more than the other 3 AL Playoff teams combined, you should win.

When talking about Torre I guess I admire his composure in the dugout. He lets the players get the glory and even though in my mind it shouldn't happen this way, he takes the blame. What front offices guys do is beyond (to an extent) his control. If they put together a team that doesn't like eachother, no manager will be successfull.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
Joe Torre's record as a manager:

Atlanta 486 257 229 .529
NewYorkM 709 286 420 .405
NewYorkY 1780 1079 699 .607
St.Louis 706 351 354 .498
+----+-----------+--------+---+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 3681 1973 1702 .537


Other than his stint with the Yankee's, I would say he wasn't the greatest manager in the world if you look at his numbers. He took Atlanta to the playoffs in his first year after which his team finished 2nd and a distant third, and then he was let go by the organization.

It wasn't until he came to a team loaded with talent that he was "successful" in the fact he won the World Series. I would go out on a limb and say that his days are numbered this year in NY if he doesn't win it all.

When you have a payroll that is more than the other 3 AL Playoff teams combined, you should win.

So are you saying that he wasn't a good manager early because he had losing records but now he has shown talent because he manages teams with winning records?

That's my point KD. It takes good players to win. Managers can only do so much.

Do you think his tenure early in his career had the players that the team he manages now does?

Phil Jackson...........Jordan, Shaq, Kolbe.........arguably the 3 best players in NBA history.

Do you think Phil would be considered the same coach if he had coached the Mavs the majority of his career?

KG- I think we are in agreement. One thing I must say is that as a player, the one thing I can imagine making me have a desire to not perform well (and this is at the highest level... because until then there is no reason to not want to perform well) is if my coach ratted me or a teammate out... or simply didn't "have our backs"... and even then it's almost nearly impossible to intentionally not play hard. It's ironic how well the team played when Buck was gone for that short period of time.

Good players make good managers. A good manager gets the most out of the talent he is given. Observers make judgments based on what they watch and what the press reports -- with or without baseball "experience".

Just thought I'd follow suit by stating the obvious.