Buck fired

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Observers make judgments based on what they watch and what the press reports -- with or without baseball "experience".

Well said, but are these judgements based on 100% fact?

Judgments are seldom based on 100% fact -- if that was the case there would be no sports columnists, no online blogging, and no talk radio.

What makes a coach a good coach? The question is subjective and calls for a judgment(s). Webster defines a "judgment" as a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion. Judgments regarding professional baseball success are often times based on team results....but it can easily be argued that results will differ based on coaching philosophy.

So, does a coach have a sound philosophy (thereby making him a good coach) only when his team responds and wins? Is Joe Girardi a better coach than Buck Showalter? Is Dusty Baker better than Buck Showalter? IMO, there is no definitive standard. It must make those that view the world as "black or white" a little crazy.

I think coaches are judged differently at different levels (or I would hope that is the case).

Intriguing discussion.

-PD

It's pretty simple. The managers are paid to win with the players they are given by the management. If they don't win, even if they don't have the players they need, they will be fired. Period. Been that way since the game began, and will be that way until the last day they play the great game of baseball.

Sure, there are a few examples, and some in recent history, of managers having extended periods of time to manage a losing ballclub, but most of those managers took their team to the World Series at least once or twice.

Bobby Cox's job I think is safe as long as he wants it even though the Braves had a terrible year this year.

I think the Rangers fans should be more demanding of their owner/GM and Field Manager, rather than less. The Cowboys have won it all in recent history, so have the Stars, and the Mav's were a couple of minutes away from the championship this year....but the Rangers have yet to win a single post season series, in over 30 years.

But yet they still put over 3 million butts in seats year after year. Reminds me of the New Orleans Saints.....keep giving them crud, and the fans still come back. Until the fans decide to quit supporting the team and it continues to be a cash cow, it won't change, and we will continue to have a new manager every couple of years.

I went to a couple Rangers/Yankee's games this year. I would say that over 40% of the people there were Yankee fans....sad.

Reminds me of when the Cowboys used to go to Phoenix every year.....where the stands would be full of Cowboy jerseys.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Good players make good managers.

I think you might want to put some qualifiers on that one.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:

I went to a couple Rangers/Yankee's games this year. I would say that over 40% of the people there were Yankee fans....sad.

That's because everybody wants to be associated with a winner. Most of em' were probably from Boston too.

Hell, look at you. You have joined DBAT in hopes to become a winner.

I gurantee you last year when I went to the Cardinals at Rangers, over HALF the stadium was full of Cardinals fans, I guess its true, there are Cardinals fans everywhere

Nothing will change until we get some PITCHING

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

That's because everybody wants to be associated with a winner. Most of em' were probably from Boston too.

Hell, look at you. You have joined DBAT in hopes to become a winner.

I didn't join DBat, my son did. Winning was way down the list when he made the move.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Good players make good managers.

I think you might want to put some qualifiers on that one.

Yeah, Ted Williams didn't do such a great job here.

KG you wrote;

“Which, my point being............is there any chance that the players on the field are directly responsible for a winning or losing season?”

“Hell, look at you. You have joined DBAT in hopes to become a winner.”

Which is it, players or organizations that make winners?

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Good players make good managers.

I think you might want to put some qualifiers on that one.

KD,

You have misunderstood that quote.......

What he is saying that good players on the field make the manager look good.

Just another example how someone can read something and make an assumption which leads to a totally different understanding.
Yeah,

quote:

Originally posted by knowitall:
KG you wrote;

“Which, my point being............is there any chance that the players on the field are directly responsible for a winning or losing season?”

“Hell, look at you. You have joined DBAT in hopes to become a winner.”

Which is it, players or organizations that make winners?

Players.........

And you too have misunderstood the points being made.

Dbat(and just in case I hurt someones feelings.......the Mustangs, Tigers, Patriots, Panthers, Joe's Plumbing, ect.) are generally teams that have above average players on the field. Kids and their parents want to be part of this in hopes for success.

Winning=Success

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:

I didn't join DBat, my son did. Winning was way down the list when he made the move.

So if Dbat went 15-45 last year and had a new coach, you would still be interested huh?

"Good players don't necessarily make good managers."

My statement stands no matter which interpretation someone chooses.

Believe it or not KG, some parents are more concerned about their kid's development than they are the W-L record of the club. But then that doesn't match your assumption.

Often, the clubs that offer the best development opportunities are also clubs that win their share of games. But not always.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
"Good players don't necessarily make good managers."

My statement stands no matter which interpretation someone chooses.

Believe it or not KG, some parents are more concerned about their kid's development than they are the W-L record of the club. But then that doesn't match your assumption.

Often, the clubs that offer the best development opportunities are also clubs that win their share of games. But not always.

I understand what you are saying Texan.

But I should ask......

Give me a considered "good" program that has a losing record. You know, a program that develops kids but loses more than they win.

quote:

Dbat(and just in case I hurt someones feelings.......the Mustangs, Tigers, Patriots, Panthers, Joe's Plumbing, ect.) are generally teams that have above average players on the field. Kids and their parents want to be part of this in hopes for success.

We know about all those teams, except we need to gather more info about "Joe's Plumbing".

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

Dbat(and just in case I hurt someones feelings.......the Mustangs, Tigers, Patriots, Panthers, Joe's Plumbing, ect.) are generally teams that have above average players on the field. Kids and their parents want to be part of this in hopes for success.

We know about all those teams, except we need to gather more info about "Joe's Plumbing".

PG,

I can't believe you haven't heard of them. They have 10 D1 prospects but no one knows about them because they haven't been to AC's.

Off the top of my head, I know of one "Premier" (the association, not the BBI league) team that had a .350 record one season. And another that was only .620. And another that was only .530.

And you are the one who mentioned losing seasons, not I.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Off the top of my head, I know of one "Premier" (the association, not the BBI league) team that had a .350 record one season. And another that was only .620. And another that was only .530.

And you are the one who mentioned losing seasons, not I.

So who was the team who was .350 and would you or your son be interested in that program.

And the last time I checked, .620 baseball is pretty good.

KG interpretted my comment correctly about good players making good managers. I was not referring to former players that were good. And although I think it is true at all levels, I was talking about professional baseball more than lower levels. Coaches at lower levels may be "judged" by a different criteria (than winning) in many cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
So who was the team who was .350 and would you or your son be interested in that program.

ROTFL! He played on that team! Sure it was frustrating at times. But he learned. He grew. He played against some of the best teams in the country. It was a good experience for him.

He stayed with the club. A fair number of players left. Their parents couldn't handle a "losing season". Interesting, the team was far better after those players left.

Have a great weekend. I will end our delightful correspondence here.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
So who was the team who was .350 and would you or your son be interested in that program.

ROTFL! He played on that team! Sure it was frustrating at times. But he learned. He grew. He played against some of the best teams in the country. It was a good experience for him.

He stayed with the club. A fair number of players left. Their parents couldn't handle a "losing season". Interesting, the team was far better after those players left.

Have a great weekend. I will end our delightful correspondence here.

That is awesome........

Don't leave.....I love stirring it up with you.

Next question.....you guys going back.

quote:

We know about all those teams, except we need to gather more info about "Joe's Plumbing".

PGStaff ain't kidding........

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:

quote:

We know about all those teams, except we need to gather more info about "Joe's Plumbing".

PGStaff ain't kidding........

I think he is.

My son isn't a team hopper, in fact this summer is the first time he's left a team after the season that had a team returning in the fall. He and I both thought that the move to the team he's on for the fall would be benificial for him.

Only time will tell if we made the right decision, but I'm confident that we did. And you can believe me when I say that he isn't with this team because of wins and losses. He chose the team because of their hats.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:

He chose the team because of their hats.

Right on.

I was kidding, but if there really is a Joe's Plumbing team... I apologize to the team and to Joe himself.

I knew you were PG.............

Us baseball minds think alike.

Lord, I apolgize for what I was about to say.

Awww, let 'er rip FO.

I'd wouldn't mind seeing Lou Pinella step in!

With the Yankee's loss, I wouldn't be suprised if Torre is gone by the end of next week.