Bunt - FC, Sac or Hit

Batter got the job done. SAC or base hit.

I am sure that I do not know as much as some, but I would definitely say it is an FC.

Pop Time is probably right.  Since he laid down a bunt.  

I am with Pop. Runner was safe at third. Hit or Sac. Not going to punish the batter for a poor decision by pitcher. 

When a runner advances because of a bunt which if properly fielded would have resulted in the batter-runner being out at first, it is a sacrifice.  

 

If they couldn't have got the runner at first, it would be a hit.

 

FC is not an option in this situation.

Just to twist it a bit.... let's say the pitcher throws to second for the out. Is it still a SAC? I say yes.

I use game changer and usually score it as:  Sac bunt, safe on Fielders choice, runner safe.  It allows me to do it, so it must be right. 

Pop Time, I agree.

 

Golfman, so are you saying 0 for 0, or 0 for 1?

 

BTW, I am on the side of the sac bunt 0 for 0 side of this one up til now

The sac bunt makes it 0 for 0. 

I  agree with Swampboy. Depending on the play it should be either a hit or a SAC.

JagCoach,

 

What it is depends on the SK’s judgment about whether the batter-runner could have been put out at 1^st with “ordinary effort”. If he could have, he reaches 1^st on a FC, and is credited with a sacrifice bunt. If not, he reaches 1^st on a base hit and is credited with a single.

 

Its difficult for some people to grasp the idea that there’s a difference between how a runner acquires a base and how the batter’s batting record reflects what happened. Every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for, whether its 1^st, 2^nd 3^rd, or home. So if that play took place and it isn’t scored a hit, how does that base get accounted for? A sacrifice bunt has nothing to do whether or not the runner was safe or out, but rather whether the AB should count.

 

There’s a whole section in rule 2.00 that defines what a Fielder’s choice is and when it should be used, and in this case its (a) of that section.

The question about whether it is still a sac bunt when the runner advances to thirde but the fielder throws out the runner at second is in my opinion scored as a fielders choice all the way, since an out was scored on an advancing runner and the batter does NOT get a sac bunt.

I'm still with sac bunt and the runner is out at 2b on an FC. 0 for 0.

 

What if runners at 3b and 2b, no outs. Batter hits a fly ball to the outfield. Runner at third scores. Runner at 2b is thrown out at third trying to advance. Would you say no sac fly, 0 for 1?

Another example is that when there is a double steal attempt of say second and third, if either runner is thrown out before he reaches the bag, neither runner gets credit for a stolen base. In the fly ball example, the batter gets an RBI if there was less than two outs but does not get a sacrifice fly. Conversly, if the batter hits a ball deep enough to score a runner under normal circumstances and the fielder drops the ball with the runner tagging and scoring, the batter reaches on an error and gets a sacrifice fly and RBI. The batter is not punished for a fielder's ineptness but can be punished for a baserunner's ineptitude.

 

What if on the bunt attempt the fielders turned two, getting the runner at second and first advancing the runner to third. Would that be a sac bunt? Not in my book

This is scored as a sac. bunt. A fielders choice in this situation happens when a batter bunts the ball and a preceding runner is put out at any base by the defense. Its ruled a base hit if it is bunted so well that there is no play at first and the attempt to put any preceding runner out is unsuccessful with ordinary effort play.

This is scored as a sac fly and a tag out.  Any fly ball that is caught or should be caught and ends up scoring a runner from third is a sac fly regardless of what happens after or on that play including a scenerio that ends in a triple play as long as a run scores first on the play before three outs are recorded.

Originally Posted by Three Bagger:

The question about whether it is still a sac bunt when the runner advances to thirde but the fielder throws out the runner at second is in my opinion scored as a fielders choice all the way, since an out was scored on an advancing runner and the batter does NOT get a sac bunt.

 

It doesn’t matter what your opinion is on this particular thing because its not a judgment call, other than to judge whether the batter was trying only to get a base hit.

 

OBR 10.08 SACRIFICES

The official scorer shall:

(a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter was bunting exclusively for a base hit and not sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat;

 

Originally Posted by Three Bagger:

Another example is that when there is a double steal attempt of say second and third, if either runner is thrown out before he reaches the bag, neither runner gets credit for a stolen base. In the fly ball example, the batter gets an RBI if there was less than two outs but does not get a sacrifice fly. Conversly, if the batter hits a ball deep enough to score a runner under normal circumstances and the fielder drops the ball with the runner tagging and scoring, the batter reaches on an error and gets a sacrifice fly and RBI. The batter is not punished for a fielder's ineptness but can be punished for a baserunner's ineptitude.

 

You’re mixing apples and oranges. You cannot extrapolate what to do on any play other than a double/triple steal situation from what the rules say about steals.

 

What if on the bunt attempt the fielders turned two, getting the runner at second and first advancing the runner to third. Would that be a sac bunt? Not in my book

 

Maybe not in your book, but it would be in anyone’s book who scored using the rules. Real 10.08 and tell me where it mentions anything about a double play? There are only 2 requirements, one or more runners advance, and the batter is put out at 1^st base. I know the rules seem whacky at times, but the reason they’re there is for continuity. If everyone ignored the rules they thought weren’t right or didn’t understand, the resulting statistics would be worthless, and that’s easily seen in how useless stats are considered for the HS and below levels.

 

 

While that may be a rule concerning giving the batter a sacrifice for bunting into a double play, it is the height of stupidity to score this a sacrifice as the batter has done massive damage to the offense. This type of of play is what MAKES certain statistics worthless not enhances them in some magical way. So according to this rule, if the batter pops up the bunt and it is caught but the runner tagas up and advances, the batter gets a sacrifice according to the rules?

Three Bagger,

 

What a scorer thinks about the scoring rules is no more pertinent than what the umpires think about the game conduct rules. They rules are very simply the rules, and as officials we’re bound by them.

 

You’re believing that rules like that make the statistics worthless is just plain wrong. In fact, its just the opposite. Because the rules make the scoring consistent, the numbers coming out of them can be counted on.

 

You seem to be looking at scoring as something other than what it is, which is an attempt to accurately record what’s taken place. As a scorer, I couldn’t care less about the stats. I record the events as best I can according to the rules, make my report, and let the statisticians and those trying to interpret them to their job.

 

Can you explain what “damage” a batter may have done to the offense has to do with whether or not a bunt is considered as having been a sacrifice or not? Heck, by its very nature a sac bunt is damaging to the offense because it gives away an out.

 

You’re trying to inject your values on a system that isn’t set up to judge values, but only to record events. There are a lot of things in the scoring rules I think need fixed, but until they are changed, all I can do is use what I have. If you want to score games based on something other than the rules, that’s perfectly fine, as long as you make sure you let everyone know what you’re doing.

Believe it or not, I agree with Stats on this one.  Wow, small miracles. 

OK Stats I'll defer to you on these sac scenerios even if they make no sense since the whole point of the word "sacrifice" meant to mean the batter gives himself up not a runner in front of him. There is plenty of room for a person's personal decision on scoring such as when a runner bunts when losing 7-2, moves a runner up and is thrown out. It is not as cut and dried as you make it seem. I have seen ML scorers not give the batter a sac because their OPINION was that he was bunting for a base hit. For curiosity sake you didn't answer my question about how you would score a bunt that is caught in the air but the runner tags and moves up a base. I guess by the rules the batter gets a sac bunt.

 

There are a lot of baseball people who won't admit that the sac bunt is damaging to the offense at all, but bunting into a double play and being rewarded by a scoring system is just another one of the ways of trying to determine value is skewed . I have seen even at the college level where an error is made on the bunt and the scorer forgets all about the sac bunt aspect.

3B, I don’t know how you could get the point of what a sacrifice so wrong, even when you can read it in black and white. In fact, when I discussed the history of sacrifices with one of the historians at Baseball Almanac,  it prompted me to create my MRU stat which is based on the lead runner moving up at least one base safely because of something the batter did.

 

I never once said anything was cut and dried, but rather that there had to be some judgment on the part of the SK as to whether or not the batter was bunting for a hit. But, even though there is some judgment there, since the rules state in black and white that the batter SHALL be given the benefit of the doubt, I doubt you’ll see many quality scorers not score a sacrifice on a bunt that moves up the lead runner. I’ve done it when there were runners on 1^st and 3^rd and only the runner on 1^st moved up, but it would take a someone mighty high on his abilities to read minds to do it other than things like that.

 

The answer to your question is so simple I thought you’d have already seen it. The batter has to be put out or would have been put out at 1^st base in order for it to be a sacrifice bunt. Of course if the runner scored from 3^rd it would be a sacrifice fly.

 

I’ve known since I was a shaver back in the early 50’s that sac bunts damaged the offense in the sense that they gave up an out.  But the thing is, that has to be weighed against how much good it does to move the runner. IOW, is it more beneficial to move the runner or save the out? Those are questions only the manager can determine based on the situation. If you have the league’s best hitter on deck and there is one out and you’re behind by a run in the bottom of the last inning, and the batter is a slow tub of lard who’s hit into more DPs than the entire team combined, I’d have to say the sac bunt it a pretty wise move.

 

If you’ve seen a scorer not mark a sacrifice bunt when there was an error made on the play, there was either something else going on you weren’t aware of, of the scorer didn’t know the scoring rules, both of which are entirely possible, and level has nothing at all to do with it. That happens at the ML level as well, but the difference is, everything marked at that level is checked and rechecked as its called in to the central database, and if there’s a mistake made because the scoring rules weren’t followed, all someone has to do is appeal it and it will be changed.

 

Who checks everything at a 8YO, 12YO, HS or even a college game? NO ONE because there’s no central database, with literally thousands of people checking out what was marked because they’ve got lots of $$$$$$$ riding on their fantasy picks.

 

When asked by a parent why their son wasn't given a sacrifice for bunting a runner from 1st to 2nd the scorekeeper at my son's college said he only scored a sacrifice if the runner eventually scored. Kind of explains why team has few sacs on their stat sheet. 

10.08 (c) Not score a sacrifice bunt when any runner is put out attempting to advance one base on a bunt, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat

 

Unless I'm missing something, any runner being put out invalidates the sacrifice.

It cannot be a sacrifice as their was no out. I think it's ruled a hit.  No different than if the pitcher had gone to first and the runner beat it out.  You can't assume he would have gotten the runner at first because he didn't try.

10.08 (b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base, unless, an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the judgment of the official scorer ordinary effort would not have put out the batter at first base, in which case the batter shall be credited with a one-base hit and not a sacrifice

 

You can have a SH without an out being recorded if the fielders attempt to put out a runner and fail when they could have retired the runner at first with ordinary effort. This is actually somewhat common.

Fair enough, but in this case, without seeing it, how can you say he could or could not have got the guy at first.  The bunt was down the third base line and he didn't get the runner at third.  Tough to say he'd have gotten the guy at first.  Again, seeing the play would have made this call easier.

Originally Posted by old Taft Tiger:

When asked by a parent why their son wasn't given a sacrifice for bunting a runner from 1st to 2nd the scorekeeper at my son's college said he only scored a sacrifice if the runner eventually scored. Kind of explains why team has few sacs on their stat sheet. 

 

This shows that scorers can and do make mistakes at every level. The only difference is, the higher the level the less likely there will be mistakes.

You said it cannot be a sacrifice as their was no out.  That's not true.  As for this specific case, there's not really enough info to tell, but in many (most?) cases where the defense attempts to retire the lead runner on a bunt, it's due to a poor bunt (too hard or too directly at a fielder), where retiring most batters would be a given, so I think it's safe to assume that would be the case here without a more detailed description.

Stats, you're a pretty smart cookie -- no doubt about it.  But I think you missed a chance to expound just a little further a few posts back. (July 13, 2:21 pm 3rd paragraph):

 

The question was about what happens if a bunt is popped up, caught, and then a runner tags and moves up a base. You posted an answer and then went on to say, "Of course if the runner scored from 3^rd it would be a sacrifice fly."

 

Gotta be a little careful there.  That wouldn't be true if it were the catcher or pitcher who caught the popup.  10.08(d) clearly states that to be a sac fly, the batted ball must be caught by either an outfielder or an infielder.

 

Would you agree?

RPD,

 

I’ll admit I let that one get away because I wasn’t thinking about the rule, just the movement of the runner, so I’ll say you did a nice job catching it. That’s the atta boy. Now comes retort.

 

1^st, I used to paraphrase rules too, but after I had my a$$ handed to me and got embarrassed a few times, I stopped it. What really says is:

 

OBR 10.08(d) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a ball in flight handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield in fair or foul territory that …

 

That’s really different than what you said because it limits it to only balls hit into the outfield. Still a nice catch on your part though.

 

Now here’s one for you.

 

OBR Rule 2,00 An INFIELDER is a fielder who occupies a position in the infield.

 

An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.

 

5.09(f) A fair ball touches a runner or an umpire on fair territory before it touches an infielder including the pitcher, or touches an umpire before it has passed an infielder other than the pitcher; runners advance, if forced.

 

7.05(g) comment (For the purpose of Rule 7.05 (g) a catcher is considered an infielder.)

 

8.01(e) If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher’s plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder and if he makes a wild throw from that position, it shall be considered the same as a wild throw by any other infielder.

 

I can see how you could make a case for the catcher not being an infielder other than 7.05(g) because his position isn't technically IN the infield, but as you can see, once the pitcher disengages correctly prior to the pitch, and any other times, he is considered a fielder. Since his position is in the infield, it follows he’s an infielder by definition.

 

Now, none of that is meant to take away from your “catch” because it was a fair one. You gave me a reason to get in there and dig around a bit, and that was fun. Great job!

 

What if the bunt reached the outfield grass? LOL!

 

 

Fun indeed.  Thanks for the reply, Stats.  It's all good!