CABA High School World Series

Gardeck, Crowley, Martin all played with other summer teams the entire summer. Why didn't Bergyn Beach use the kids they had on their roster all year, what was the reason for bringing in these 3 kids who hadn't played with them all summer? Just curious.

Who cares!

4 Illinois boys stepped up once again on a very big stage and excelled. Take a step back and appreciate that for a moment.

Hakuna matata, Dude.

Just funny to me how many teams go and steal kids from other rosters, fly them in, take them for one weekend, etc. There's no loyalty, just kids jumping from team to team each week. Now if it was a necessity and they needed players i can understand but I doubt that was the case. It also diminishes the program and kids that were on the roster the entire summer, you have to bring in better players to help you get over the hump in a post season weekend. I say who cares to trying to bring in ringers, why not play with who got you there?

The reason probably relates to the scouting presence. Louisville, Arkan., Mich. St., Kansas St,Georgia Tech, Bama to name a few. Lots of East Coast schools, This tourney is heavily scouted. Brooklyn Bergen Beach won the event and several 2009's were offered. Bergen seems to always have a few top draft choices this helps draw in the scouts. Some other notable teams made waves; Top Tier and a surprising run by the Midwest Rangers who finished strong. TT was missing some players from Brother Rice and that hurt them at CABA World Series.

Your gonna get a headache with all that lamenting.

Move on and show some appreciation for what THEY accomplished, don't dwell on the peripheral stuff.

Like the Sparks 18u showing last week...appreciate the message these boys are sending.

that's the point what did they accomplish? They brought in guys from other teams to help their organization make a strong run and look good. If you have a core of 15 players all summer then you bring in 4-5 new guys to help you make a strong showing, then those 4-5 guys go to another organization to help them show well in another tourney is it really the organization making a strong showing in these tournaments or is it these 4-5 kids allowing them to do that? That's a very good 4 pitchers, what if they went from team to team each weekend, that particular team would probably show well and do good but what do you say to the 4-5 pitchers spots they are taking that worked hard all winter and summer with 1 team? I understand people pick up pitching or kids but it should only be on necessity in my opinion. Not to help make you look good so you can add some accolades to your website.

Isn't it the only tournament that they play in at this age level? So if there weren't any previous tournaments for this team, what does it matter?

Nails,

Stay focused on the intent of the post. If your so insistent on digressing to a different topic, start another post. I'll contribute and we can diatribe all night.

Once again, congratulations to these 4 young men who represented Illinois baseball at it's finest.

Can someone post on the top performers of the TT and Rangers team?

I think they play in tournaments throughout the summer, just not in Illinois. My entire point is you a said the Midwest Rangers did well, you think they would have done better with those 4 guys on their team instead of on Bergen? Why are some teams flying guys in every weekend and others are using their core team the entire time? Are the kids getting paid to leave their original team and go with these other teams for 1 weekend and pitch 1 game? Is flying them in and paying for their expenses even legal? These are questions everyone wants to just avoid. Takes some nerve to ask a kid to miss a weekend with a team he played with for 9 months because your in a more important tournament with scouts there or it's a National tournament. Then you play him over other kids that have been with you for a long time. Why didn't you get this kid in the beginning if you wanted and needed him so bad...........happens alot just not with Bergen. Sad thing is these coaches don't blink an eye or think about the kids original team because they think their team is all that matters. Maybe that's why so many of these teams dislike each other and don't even converse because of all the stealing back and forth. These are things of course that nobody brings up though so I am sure i will get some interesting comments back. Maybe it's just pitchers, i don't know, and that would be more understandable.

There is a pitcher opn our team that was offered a spot to pitch with the Midwest Rangers. He stayed with his travel team and turned down the offer. Class kid.

Cograts to those kids...excellent job and I'm sure their parents are proud of them.

That said, i completely agree with Nails.

I'd like to hear the entire story and the context of how these kids were brought on.

If the team has been developing over the course of the season and then the ringers were brought in I would be of the opinion that it's pointedly shady and seriously disrespectful to the other guys on the team...if it's really a "team".

Did these kids in fact leave a few other teams to go pitch this one tourney? Are some of their old teams participating in the 17u CABA? If that's the case then a huge "shame on you" their way..really bogus.

You would think that some sort of purity could be left for a bunch of 15 year old kids playing ball.

I'd like to hear the actual story.

That's a story I appreciate. Of course everything is hush hush after I post these questions. where's the great truth at? He seems to know the in's and out's of everything that's going on. It's just curious to me that a team out of New York enters a florida bracket and how people are throwing accolades at an all-star team compromised of kids from all over the nation beating teams that have kids all from the same state with the exception of 1 or 2. I just don't get it, nobody still knows how one organization gets 2 bids into the Connie Mac regional and doesn't even have to play a single team in the state playoff round.

That's why I give my hats off to the Longshots, they have a roster of kids that have been with them for years, to my knowledge they didn't bring in multiple players to help them win these flashy "National tournaments" they earned their way through the state playoff round and earned their way to New Mexico. Maybe that's why they won, their players had more games under their belt and were used to competing on the field not just getting free passes into things. They didn't have 5 new and different kids on their team each weekend helping them grind out the summer. No other team, HS or college can you just bring in ringers that aren't on your original roster all year. Maybe that's why HS coaches don't like travel ball, the kids are being abused and used like pawns for nothing more than bragging rights.

Its not like these teams are holding a gun to the head and forcing these players to play with them . How do you know Bergen didnt have a genuine need for more pitching for this tourney ? How do you know one of the regulars missed out because of this ? FYI-- Paceyga is a regular on the bergen squad. This kind of thing wasnt just thought of last week --pretty standard stuff going back as far as when i was playing more than 25 years ago.

I know he's a regular, someone tried to use the defense that this was their only tournament all year. If they have regulars that means it's not their only tournament. Call it a hunch but I doubt they brought these guys in at the end when they ran out of pitching. And your right it is standard and that's what's disturbing, no wonder these kids have ego's. Teams are flying them in to help them win games and treating them like superstars. Most of these teams have rosters of 20+, find it hard to believe all these teams need more guys. It's more like they aren't happy with what they have and who they worked with for 9 months so they bring in other players who they think are better, regardless if they are on a team or not. Facts are facts and this is what's happening. Why did Austin Wright pitch 1 game with your club? They couldn't find a pitcher from the 2, 18u teams with 20+ kids on it or 2 17u teams with 20+ kids on it? Don't act like I am as nieve as others. It's more about trying to get a $5 plaque than it is about anything else.

Im guessing that those other illinois teams you mentioned were looking to add players for Caba just like Bergen did. They wouldnt hesitate to do it. Bergen is no different than anyone else. There is absolutely nothing disturbing about it. Take Traveldads advise ..hes usually right on .

Nails, sent you a PM.

I dont post on here often but after reading your above posts i have to ask Nails where your going with your arguments? Taking a wild guess here but I'm willing to bet you dont know these players on a personal level and i dont understand why you would call them out on having big egos. I personally have played with Gardeck all summer and would have nothing but good things to say about him. He's a team player who always wants to win and hes one of the hardest workers i have seen who is always looking for a way to improve. I'm assuming the same gos for the rest of the players mentioned. Sure we would have liked to have Ian pitching with us in our last tournament this weekend but i completely understand the decision he made as well as everyone else on our team. Teams have been bringing in new players for tournaments for years and i see nothing wrong with it. Not to mention that after talking with Gardeck he mentioned they were something like 8-0 in the tournament which means a lot of pitching is needed to get through the games considering you cant count on everyone to go a full 7. Just my opinion on the subject. Congrats to the four guys for their accomplishments.

you shouldn't assume then. I know Ian and he is a good kid and doesn't have an ego. I'm talking in the big sprectrum of things and kids with ego's. I can't blame the kids for being sold that the tournament they are asked to be in is more important than the one they are supposed to play in, i can't blame the kid for being sold on a team out of new york that talks a good game so the kids buys into the fact he's playing or going to some big time event. I blame the coaches that ask the kids, I bet that he didn't ask the kid if he was on another travel team and if that kid would have said yes..........do you think the coach would have called and asked the other coach's permission for him to play? I seen it happen a ton like you all say but very very rarely do I see the team wanting the kid calling up the coach where the kid plays and explaining the situation to him and asking to take the player for the week and doing things the right way. More often then not they lure the kid in with promises of this and that, fly them in for free, the kid plays, then they use that to try to get the kid on their team the very next year. It's wrong, if your not out there enough to notice a kid in October that you think is good then all of a sudden you find out that kid is really good but he's on XYZ team, then you go out and try to get him for your squad in the post season, it's wrong. I can understand some pitching here and there if you desperately need it late in tournaments but alot of time that's not the case. I am sure there's a ton of coaches, kids that play with these kids, etc that agree with me. Then to brag about how good you did as an organization when all you did was pick up 5 ringers to help you get far in a tournament, you didn't train, develop, work with these kids all year, you just picked them up late to help you look good and possibly win a $5 plaque.

I do not understand what Bergen Beach trys to accomplish. They put all star teams together for a tournament or two every summer. Some top players are seen by scouts by playing for them and they get a trophy. So.

Are they in it for $? They aren't coaching the kids. They aren't teaching anything. There is no team concept. What do the organizers get out of it?
AS Nails said, do they just want a plaque? They develop no realationship with the players or there families.

Compare that to the Sparks, Blues, TT, Lakeside. Tehre the coaches work on behalf of the kids to get them better, learn to play as a team, make them better players and people. By the way, the kids get seen by scouts and win tournaments.

As Sully said, it has been done for years, and will continue. I just don't understand the motivation of the organizers. I know why the kids go, I am just glad the player on our team stayed loyal to the Blues.

quote:

Originally posted by Nails:
I know he's a regular, someone tried to use the defense that this was their only tournament all year. If they have regulars that means it's not their only tournament. Call it a hunch but I doubt they brought these guys in at the end when they ran out of pitching. And your right it is standard and that's what's disturbing, no wonder these kids have ego's. Teams are flying them in to help them win games and treating them like superstars. Most of these teams have rosters of 20+, find it hard to believe all these teams need more guys. It's more like they aren't happy with what they have and who they worked with for 9 months so they bring in other players who they think are better, regardless if they are on a team or not. Facts are facts and this is what's happening. Why did Austin Wright pitch 1 game with your club? They couldn't find a pitcher from the 2, 18u teams with 20+ kids on it or 2 17u teams with 20+ kids on it? Don't act like I am as nieve as others. It's more about trying to get a $5 plaque than it is about anything else.

The weekend we used Wright, one of our 17U teams was in Marietta, one of the 18U teams was in its own tournament, the 18U Black team was coming off its 2nd place finish in Marietta but we had some of their pitchers there with us including Brown, B-Rob, Hippen, Heesch, Kimes, Strack and Zych and none of them pitched complete games. We only gave our teams 17U pitchers 1-inning to give the college scouts a look at them because the summer regionals were starting on Monday (none of these kids pitched after Friday in Woodly's tourmanent). BTW, Wright wasn't at his best in the semi he pitched and our team lost. Afterwards, the team sat around ****ed and pouted because all we do is talk about winning, lol. The reality is Payton never talks to his teams about winning and my kid first played with him when he was 10. Your posts are comical because you write like you know what your talking about, but your not even close to the truth. You write like your on the inside, but your really on the outside.

Sully, don't give this lurker any more satisfaction he is just phishing for information, stay off this thread. Thats an order.

The CABA World Series has always been a "different" kind of tournament in regard to Pitching. To win, it will take more good pitching than a typical summer team carries. Coaches that have experienced a CABA also understand what the other top teams will be doing in regard to importing arms. I'm not saying that I agree with this practice, in fact there is something Un-American about bringing in extra Pitching, but that has been the history of CABA.

Tuzi

Ive had nails figured out long ago ..its fairly obvious what his intentions are

This practice of adding players to various tournament/World Series, etc., has been around for years. I wouldn't call it stealing players but adding some depth or shoring up a need to your team when tournament rules allow.

As an outsider, the best I can figure out is that no one broke any rules AND it is common place for most of the teams in this tournament to do the same. Sure the team/any team will be able to hype their credentials to anyone who will listen based up the play of some players that aren't regulars. Then again, every team will have that same opportunity.

Listen, this is nothing new. When I was a kid, and we had to run neanderthal man off the ball field, this was happening. Parents know what they are getting their kids into when they agree to allow their sons to play on these teams. While some might no like it, it is expected.

Like the changing of my underwear, same time each year, this topic will come up.

you guys are really some paranoid people aren't you. Like i have some sort of agenda against the Sparks or Top Tier or whoever.

I've said numerous times on here the Sparks do a great job of getting kids noticed, getting kids onto the next level, putting them with good coaches and putting them in front of a ton of guys!!!!!

Just because I disagree with something they did or any organization that adds players at the last minute doesn't mean that I am against the Sparks or have some agenda, please get over yourself. Your excuses are comical in defending why you do things. You guys also entered a 17u tournament and threw your 18u pitchers using the same excuse you just gave me. The 17's were heading into the state playoff's and the 18's were tired from their run in Georgia so that's why the 18u team dropped out.(somehow the pitchers weren't tired though) The longshots won that tournament with 17u pitchers, somehow they were able to manage their roster where their kids could still pitch in the summer state and they only have one 17u team compared to your 2. I am sure every other 17u team in that thing used 17u pitchers and didn't have the luxury of having 18's pitch for them. Payton is a great guy, stop putting words in my mouth and are you Sully's dad? Demanding him not to respond to things I say?

Every team has the right to run their team/organization the way they see fit as long as its within the rules. Giving kids an opportunity to pitch in a big tourney in front of colleges/scouts is a win win situation for everyone involved...especially the KIDS ! If you are so sure this is not the case ..then lets hear from players or coaches from the teams these players came from and hear them complain about it. I think we will find you have a baseless argument. Who appointed you the watchdog over the pitching moves of any of these teams ?

your exactly right, each organization can run things however they think is right. I am not here openly trying to rip on any organization or any team. I think the team managers would have a problem with their players getting taken I just don't think they are on these forum's. You guys over there are obviously doing something right because you have a ton of guys going places, being seen, your winning tournaments, etc.

I just don't agree with bringing in ringer's unless it's totally needed. I do understand in some instances it is needed but for a big organization that has 2 teams that are set in October I just don't see why they would need to bring in an Austin Wright to pitch one game. I didn't know you lost that game, now that you lost I am sure the kids on the team who he pitched in front of weren't happy.

I am 100% behind Nails here. All of you others can say whatever you want but the bottomline is that none of you would be happy if the coach added POSITION PLAYERS and that put your kid right on the bench. I can almost understand pitchers as long as none of the originals are pushed out of the rotation. For example, say YOUR KID was the #1 shortstop on the team since he's been on the team and he was the #1 shortstop all throughout winter workouts. Then, all of a sudden CABA comes around and you find out that he adds another shortstop. Now, keep in mind that this kid probably doesn't have to pay anything to play on the team when you have probably laid down a couple thousand considering team fees and hotel costs as well. And, he is guaranteed the starting spot for AT LEAST the majority of the games, if not all of them. You have to say "what if this happened to me" in this situation before you can say anything.

We werent talking about position players -thats a much different situation . By the way..if an 18 year old pitched for a 17u team ..the 17u team had to be playing in an 18u tournament .

FYI -Tuzigoot is a suurogate father to me and has every right to admonish me.

Nails- you are pretty good at avoiding questions posed to you.

Maybe this kid Wright needed the work and wanted to pitch ..what do you know about it ? Probably nothing.

Provide some juice for your arguments or just forget it already.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad1954:
I do not understand what Bergen Beach trys to accomplish. They put all star teams together for a tournament or two every summer. Some top players are seen by scouts by playing for them and they get a trophy. So.

Are they in it for $? They aren't coaching the kids. They aren't teaching anything. There is no team concept. What do the organizers get out of it?
AS Nails said, do they just want a plaque? They develop no realationship with the players or there families.

Compare that to the Sparks, Blues, TT, Lakeside. Tehre the coaches work on behalf of the kids to get them better, learn to play as a team, make them better players and people. By the way, the kids get seen by scouts and win tournaments.

As Sully said, it has been done for years, and will continue. I just don't understand the motivation of the organizers. I know why the kids go, I am just glad the player on our team stayed loyal to the Blues.

After reading the above posts i feel compelled to share some very interesting comments made by college recruiters over the weekend ...which kind of goes hand in hand with some of the comments made on this site above..

On a sunday afternoon i was sitting and enjoying this good pitcher going for a team....really good stuff and excellent control and then he got into trouble...The coach took him out and the recruiters present were amazed as they saw this young man pack his personal belongings and walk away from his team mates and teh game with the go ahead runs on base for their opponents...The player got into his car in the parking lot and drove off...Recruiters watching and talking the entire time
This same young man was in Memphis on Friday night and was suppose to pitch for another team on Saturday but yet he was pitching in another uniform on Sunday at Bloomington....

The recruiters were actually saying the chemistry on college teams isn't as good as it had been in the past and travel ball is one of the main reasons that kids feel they only have to show up to pitch, --- and the closeness of teams just isn't what it use to be..
They also were ALL TALKING about how it is to get "Big Timed" by an 18 year old player or their parents....and how times have really changed in the recruiting games... Travel Teams not telling coaches when a kid is going to pitch for them because they have their favorite college recruiter and they want to have a big hand in getting that kid placed so they can take credit for it...
Another big discussion was that the kids don't want to take extra cuts anymore or extra groundballs after practice...and majority of players do not KNOW HOW TO PRACTICE when they are there... And the biggest point they were bringing up is that sometimes the PARENTS are living their life through the kids...
ie: father talking about how we are Guns to Hire
when he just arrived for 1 game only to pitch...and that we had alot of offers from colleges, and we work out in the best facility available...everything was we.... WE just couldn't figure out THE WE PART....Didn't see the father pitch one pitch that day
Also another topic was that emails were sent to players email address but yet father and mother called up coach and said they didn't get the emails
when coach said i sent it to your son; mother asked son and he said oh yeah, i got it...but never communicated with parents...but never responded to coaches communication
Nightmares gentlemen....Mom and dad, travel coaches making decisions can't go to college again and won't be with that player in the Fall of his first semester of College- Who is going to bring him his Water, GAtorade to the dugout and wipe his brow then? NOT AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL...it won't ever happen... When he is a freshman and the big time attitude comes to being a reserve or second line pitcher at the institution....how does the player react?? TRAVEL ball is good...but sometimes i think everyone involved in it gets a little carried away...Let the kids have fun and make some of their own decisions..

Woodly

Dont you make some $$$ off these travel teams entering your tourneys and keeping you in business ?

Ok, but these pitchers that were on the team from the get go probably paid to play on the team to play in front of all of these scouts. Plus, all of these ringers probably have scouts after them already. So, they should be helping the kids who maybe go under the radar get noticed because the kids that throw over 90mph (and are add-ons to the team) don't need that kind of help to begin with. I might be wrong, but isn't it all about helping the kids get noticed by schools?

quote:

Originally posted by sulltiger24:
Woodly

Dont you make some $$$ off these travel teams entering your tourneys and keeping you in business ?

absolutely --we do provide those travel teams opportunities to get seen at various colleges which you well know...and this is not a slam at travel teams
it is merely comments from COLLEGE RECRUITERS who are at my events watching these kids--other words the decision makers on those kids... Sure not my comments.. I have my opinions on the subject matter but know darn good and well not to share them on this site..
and as far as those travel teams keeping me in business...Without the travel teams there would be no business and when that happens i will very happily retire 100%...It isn't the only thing I have done all my life since i am a former high school teacher and coach plus jr college asst coach... and former sporting goods store owner for 30 years... really doing this as a way to stay involved in the game due to health problems..

Good post Woodly, that's exactly what i was saying and why these kids think they are "big time" they have different coaches flying them in, begging them to play, etc. When a college talks to them they act like they are some superstars even though they didn't pitch an inning of college baseball yet. The parents are way too involved. I could care less if Austin Wright needed to pitch, i sure he could have pitched a bullpen somewhere, what happened to the team he was on last year? your telling me he wasn't on a team this summer? What questions exactly did you pose to me? What's my agenda, my agenda is these kids going back and forth playing for 3-4 teams a summer is undermining the other kids on the team and even the colleges and recreuters know it's bad. So I don't think what I am saying is out of line or directed at anyone in particular.

Who cares alreeady? I don't see the point in arguing against or defending something that is obviously not ever gonna change. It is what it is.


Now I have a headache. Aspirin, anyone...Tuzi? Sulli? Haven't we all been through this before

Nice job, boys!

In the next breath , Those same recruiters that Woodly mentioned will have no problem offering one of those pitchers they were talking about a very nice scholarship offer.

How do you know??? Are you a college recruiter??? Don't you think some colleges look at the character of the potential college player and not just how hard they can throw their fastball?

Guys, anyone who's around baseball knows, that at the big events, teams like Brooklyn load up. That organization in particular takes "it" to new levels, not saying anything against them, just that they get it done.

Lesser known teams don't have the ability to recruit like they do, teams with limited finances don't have the ability to pay for flights, room, board, meal etc., They have a few big names who came up in their program, that also helps sway parents. And yes the scouts do pay attention to teams like this, just a fact, and in this biz, you better have the facts. Can't fault a kid or a parent from getting stars in their eyes when a team like that comes knocking. If it leads to a scholarship offer great or if the kid comes away with a championship and some memories who's going to complain. (probably this guy Nails) Time to move on from this one.

I'm not going to complain if it leads to a scholarship, who you kidding? This is about the kids and should be about the kids and teaching them how to play the game right, not about a team Loading up on talent. You mentioned they pay for flights, rooms, meals. I am wondering how this is legal but in college it's not legal. I guess that's my point and Woodly's point, these kids start thinking they are "big time" cause they come to games only when they pitch, then leave when they are done, they are hired guns and go from team to team and get the red carpet treatment. Then NONE of this happens in college and the kid is shocked. So please NCAScout tell me how this is preparing the kid for the next level when it's teaching them everything opposite of what college is trying to teach (teamwork, thinking about we, not me, being humble, working hard, earning your way to playing time, etc) I think Gardeck, Crowley, Martin were well on the map before Bergen came calling. If they weren't on the map Bergen wouldn't even know who they are, so to claim Bergen is doing anything to help them is overstating it and twisting it alittle don't you think?