You just described on of the players who quit the high school team as a senior after two transfers and one career varsity win.quote:Originally posted by observer44:
Here is a scenerio...not logical or rational or sensible...but plausable if you know HS ball and some of the more interesting parents..
Freshman Father is certain that his son is a stud and should start on varsity as a freshman...Talks the kid up, boast and brags...instead his son gets assigned to JV. Father is simply crushed AND VERY angry, and carries that venom with him all year. Sits in the stands at Varsity games and grinds on about all the mistakes the players make and how his kid should be starting. Meanwhile his Son has a fine year at JV, gets the call up. Dad now sees the perfect opportunity to vent his bitterness, to stick it back to them, those who coach and play "advanced rec ball."...those fools who did not see his son's obvious talent...and he declines his son. Old man takes his ball and goes home. Walks away happily certain that he has made his point (and continues to make it any anyone one the practice field that will listen.)
In the end wins the battle....but loses the war. Father doesn't get it and never will.
Next year, son is back on JV. Ultimately he goes to 3 high schools, strangley enough it turns out that every one of those programs plays "advanced rec ball."...son goes to low level JC, quits.
44
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Parents don't take behavior in school, practice and games along with academics into account when assessing who should play. Our state like any state, has a standard for minimum academics. Our school district has a higher standard. The baseball coach has an even higher standard. The baseball coach will send any kid on the warning list home to study rather than practice. No practice, no game. He has no place for marginally academic players.quote:I know some parents have said that I do (politics) because their son got cheated out of playing time.
CADad
I understand where you are coming from and even thought about that as I typed it. It really comes down to what the coach wants to put up with - a good kid or a punk. Talent really doesn't play into that overall. You can have a great player with a great attitude - he's going to play because it's a no brainer. The difficult choice comes down to the good player with a bad attitude / poor grades or the marginal kid who has a great attitude / great grades - who you going to play?
It's tough because everyone wants to win but at what cost? The good player / bad attitude might win you a few games based on his talent alone but do you want to put up with the headaches that come with him.
Myself personally I would rather have kids around me that I like and get along with. I will take a chance on the good player / bad attitude but if he won't come around to my way of thinking then he and I need to part ways. Is it the right way to do things I don't know but it's worked for me in the past.
I know some can (and do) say I play politics based on this but I think that argument loses value if I consistantly do the same thing over and over - especially if I produce good teams / college players.
I understand where you are coming from and even thought about that as I typed it. It really comes down to what the coach wants to put up with - a good kid or a punk. Talent really doesn't play into that overall. You can have a great player with a great attitude - he's going to play because it's a no brainer. The difficult choice comes down to the good player with a bad attitude / poor grades or the marginal kid who has a great attitude / great grades - who you going to play?
It's tough because everyone wants to win but at what cost? The good player / bad attitude might win you a few games based on his talent alone but do you want to put up with the headaches that come with him.
Myself personally I would rather have kids around me that I like and get along with. I will take a chance on the good player / bad attitude but if he won't come around to my way of thinking then he and I need to part ways. Is it the right way to do things I don't know but it's worked for me in the past.
I know some can (and do) say I play politics based on this but I think that argument loses value if I consistantly do the same thing over and over - especially if I produce good teams / college players.
I have to believe that this young man might find him without a spot on the varsity in the next few years
It is like a promotion at work---turn one down and you may never get another chance
It is like a promotion at work---turn one down and you may never get another chance
"I consistantly do the same thing over and over - especially if I produce good teams / college players."
Boy, there is the statement of the year! And, IMO what good coaching is all about.
I love the battle cry of politics(um, bitterness er, someone did not see it my way).
bballman, you touched on a good point. Everyone is not my sons baseball program and everyone in my sons program might not be as happy about it as my son.
The program my son is in runs very much the same year in year out. Everyone plays freshman ball as a freshman, jv as a soph (unless there is a vacancy on varsity) and seniors are given the opportunity to fall down before underclassmen are played before them. He takes 15 kids at each level, and there is no booster club. It costs no $ to play ball in our program. (You just have to buy your own equip... anonamous $ are accepted, put a name on it and it is rejected. ... consistently)
The varsity jersey is very earned at my son's school. It is explained to them by the head coach before they even tryout and the coach follows through on his word...... consistently
Since we are a long term winning program I guess it works.
Not everyone has that.
Boy, there is the statement of the year! And, IMO what good coaching is all about.
I love the battle cry of politics(um, bitterness er, someone did not see it my way).
bballman, you touched on a good point. Everyone is not my sons baseball program and everyone in my sons program might not be as happy about it as my son.
The program my son is in runs very much the same year in year out. Everyone plays freshman ball as a freshman, jv as a soph (unless there is a vacancy on varsity) and seniors are given the opportunity to fall down before underclassmen are played before them. He takes 15 kids at each level, and there is no booster club. It costs no $ to play ball in our program. (You just have to buy your own equip... anonamous $ are accepted, put a name on it and it is rejected. ... consistently)
The varsity jersey is very earned at my son's school. It is explained to them by the head coach before they even tryout and the coach follows through on his word...... consistently
Since we are a long term winning program I guess it works.
Not everyone has that.
This thread has taken some interesting tangents. I have a scenario that's kind of related; would like to know what people think.
My son goes to a school that boosts a year-long baseball program and holds camps in the summer and winter for prospects. There's a kid in his grade, an outfielder, who attended those camps through most of middle school. Kid gets to school, he's a poor student and he starts getting in trouble in class. Can't make grades. Getting detention. Coach bans him from some of the fall morning workouts and later some of the winter workouts. (He did play fall ball on Sundays, though.) Come spring, his grades are too bad to even go to try-outs. Everyone assumed he was off the team. Meanwhile, the outfield's kind of crowded -- 3-4 freshman and a sophomore who can really play, all fighting for time. So, finally this kid pulls his grades up, gets a uniform, shows up for the first time about two weeks ago. He PRs his first game. After that... he starts. Plays every inning. He's doing well... but a kid who's been working hard, keeping up his grades, but not quite as talented, has been sitting.
Maybe it's because my son attends a Catholic school, but the whole thing sort of reminds me of the story of the Prodigal Son. IIRC, the brother in that story was kind of perturbed. Watching this scenario unfold, I am too -- even though I've known the Prodigal Son kid for years. Just doesn't seem right...
LHPMom
My son goes to a school that boosts a year-long baseball program and holds camps in the summer and winter for prospects. There's a kid in his grade, an outfielder, who attended those camps through most of middle school. Kid gets to school, he's a poor student and he starts getting in trouble in class. Can't make grades. Getting detention. Coach bans him from some of the fall morning workouts and later some of the winter workouts. (He did play fall ball on Sundays, though.) Come spring, his grades are too bad to even go to try-outs. Everyone assumed he was off the team. Meanwhile, the outfield's kind of crowded -- 3-4 freshman and a sophomore who can really play, all fighting for time. So, finally this kid pulls his grades up, gets a uniform, shows up for the first time about two weeks ago. He PRs his first game. After that... he starts. Plays every inning. He's doing well... but a kid who's been working hard, keeping up his grades, but not quite as talented, has been sitting.
Maybe it's because my son attends a Catholic school, but the whole thing sort of reminds me of the story of the Prodigal Son. IIRC, the brother in that story was kind of perturbed. Watching this scenario unfold, I am too -- even though I've known the Prodigal Son kid for years. Just doesn't seem right...
LHPMom
Watching kids with bad grades slide by is hard for a parent who makes their own kid toe the line on grades. ( I myself have a "keep it above Bs or no keys" policy...which is slacker by some standards.)
However, (and I really try to focus on this) Baseball is a club sport at the hs. The club leader (Head Coach) sets the rules. It is his club to do with whatever he wants. He can include who he sees fit. He can cut whoever. He can play kids as he sees fit. You may not agree. You have to decide if you want to be in the club and play by his rules or not.
You would hope for some consistency like was talked about by Coach2709. That is the kind of coach you are hoping for. You may not get it.
But, you wont have bosses in life who do things the way you want either. And, I tell my kids that there is a high percentage of things in life you wont want to do, but you will have to do them anyway. And you will have to do them well.
Figure out a way to get along or opt out.
The bad grade kid thing happend on our team last year. An offensively and defensively struggling senior 2.0 kid played over a bad attitude 4.3 gpa (might have been better) player.
Coach played the better attitude 2.0 senior who had given him 4 years. We still won league. Senior went on to play JC.
However, (and I really try to focus on this) Baseball is a club sport at the hs. The club leader (Head Coach) sets the rules. It is his club to do with whatever he wants. He can include who he sees fit. He can cut whoever. He can play kids as he sees fit. You may not agree. You have to decide if you want to be in the club and play by his rules or not.
You would hope for some consistency like was talked about by Coach2709. That is the kind of coach you are hoping for. You may not get it.
But, you wont have bosses in life who do things the way you want either. And, I tell my kids that there is a high percentage of things in life you wont want to do, but you will have to do them anyway. And you will have to do them well.
Figure out a way to get along or opt out.
The bad grade kid thing happend on our team last year. An offensively and defensively struggling senior 2.0 kid played over a bad attitude 4.3 gpa (might have been better) player.
Coach played the better attitude 2.0 senior who had given him 4 years. We still won league. Senior went on to play JC.
quote playfair:
The bad grade kid thing happend on our team last year. An offensively and defensively struggling senior 2.0 kid played over a bad attitude 4.3 gpa (might have been better) player.
I don't think a kid's GPA should have anything to do with playing time. If a kid meets the state, school and/or coaches standards he is eligible to play, and playing time should be based on who is the better player. I can understand the bad attitude thing, that happens a lot.
If GPA comes into play why don't they just give them IQ tests at tryouts and pick the team that way.
The bad grade kid thing happend on our team last year. An offensively and defensively struggling senior 2.0 kid played over a bad attitude 4.3 gpa (might have been better) player.
I don't think a kid's GPA should have anything to do with playing time. If a kid meets the state, school and/or coaches standards he is eligible to play, and playing time should be based on who is the better player. I can understand the bad attitude thing, that happens a lot.
If GPA comes into play why don't they just give them IQ tests at tryouts and pick the team that way.
There is one way to not have to choose who to play , the bad attitude kid with more talent or the great attitude kid with a less talent.
Dont have anyone on your roster that has a bad attitude. Cut the kids with the bad attitude at the same time you cut the kids that do not have the talent to play in your program.
Then play the players that give your team the best chance to win. Work in the others as you see fit to help develop them for the future.
There is no place for a bad attitude on a team. If you keep those type of kids in your program you are setting yourself up and your team for failure and misery. And your not helping that kid at all. Maybe getting cut will be what it takes to make him realize he needs to change his ways. Either way you will not have to deal with it if they are not around.
Dont have anyone on your roster that has a bad attitude. Cut the kids with the bad attitude at the same time you cut the kids that do not have the talent to play in your program.
Then play the players that give your team the best chance to win. Work in the others as you see fit to help develop them for the future.
There is no place for a bad attitude on a team. If you keep those type of kids in your program you are setting yourself up and your team for failure and misery. And your not helping that kid at all. Maybe getting cut will be what it takes to make him realize he needs to change his ways. Either way you will not have to deal with it if they are not around.
I love the HSBBW for the simple fact that it's like the game telephone, remember that?
In rereading the original post, a few times, no where was mentioned that the player said he didn't want to move up, that was coming from the dad. We really don't know the whole story, just the dads version.
Sometimes you just can't trust what you hear from parents. A few weeks ago a dad looked me straight in the eye and told me his son was going to play at Florida..not, he really meant another Florida school, he just left out that part, he just didn't think I would know the difference, until it was too late. Should have seen the look on his face when I asked what he thought about the new Head Coach!
This is a good topic, but let's leave out the player, we really have no clue what actually went down.
In rereading the original post, a few times, no where was mentioned that the player said he didn't want to move up, that was coming from the dad. We really don't know the whole story, just the dads version.
Sometimes you just can't trust what you hear from parents. A few weeks ago a dad looked me straight in the eye and told me his son was going to play at Florida..not, he really meant another Florida school, he just left out that part, he just didn't think I would know the difference, until it was too late. Should have seen the look on his face when I asked what he thought about the new Head Coach!
This is a good topic, but let's leave out the player, we really have no clue what actually went down.
quote:Dont have anyone on your roster that has a bad attitude. Cut the kids with the bad attitude at the same time you cut the kids that do not have the talent to play in your program.
I agree but Coaches don't do that. If the kid can play, they'll put up with the attitude and will play over the good attitude kid with less talent. A coach will have no problem getting rid of a bad attitude who's skills are average. More often than not, the only time these types of players are out if the lineup is if they get tossed by an umpire or they badly embarrass the head coach with their attitude the coach has no choice to bench him.
One thing I've seen with bad apples was their attitude would somehow manage to bite a team in a key spot or game.
quote:There is one way to not have to choose who to play , the bad attitude kid with more talent or the great attitude kid with a less talent.
Dont have anyone on your roster that has a bad attitude
I agree. I think the way our coach clears house of good talent with bad attitude is by sitting the 'tude.
They either quit the team or change the 'tude
In this day and age the first thing many college coaches ask is "what is the kid like? how is his attitude?"
We are forunate that we as a private operation can pick and choose but I know HS coaches who find ways not to have the "bad attitude" kids on their team---you do not need a rotten apple in the barrel because it spreads
We are forunate that we as a private operation can pick and choose but I know HS coaches who find ways not to have the "bad attitude" kids on their team---you do not need a rotten apple in the barrel because it spreads
quote:In this day and age the first thing many college coaches ask is "what is the kid like? how is his attitude?"
That is true. Phone call to a HS or travel ball coach:" tell me something about this kid that I can't see on the field, what is his mental make up?. Will he casue problems in my program, I can't afford to have a problem, Is he a team player, what kind of work ethic does he have.What kind of studnet is he?". goes on all the time.
I figured it up one year and it came out to around 30 Cent per hour. Many coaches are in that same boat especially the ones that care. They are the ones that constantly put in the extra hours and extra work to build a program and provide the best possible situtation for their players.
So if your getting paid peanuts why would you want to be around kids that you do not like? Why would you want spend your time working with kids you do not like? Why would you want to go the extra mile for a kid who has a bad attitude? And why would you want to put your other kids in a situation where they had a team mate like this as well? To win a high school game?
Here is what happens when kids realize that a certain type of kid is not going to be allowed to be a certain type of kid in your program. They either decide not to even try out in the first place. They put on a good face in front of you but eventually the true person comes out. They make a concious effort to change in order to be in the program.
You learn from experience. When I first started coaching everyone came out. We were a school at that time with about 600 students and we would have 50-60 come out. Within a couple of years we were down to 35-45 coming out. Now the school is around 1,100 students. We have around 40 come out each year. We dont have any bad attitude kids come out. We already know all of them from the summer and fall workouts. The ones with bad attitudes quickly learn they are not in a place for them.
The first thing you are going to notice about a player is his ability or inability to play the game. The very next thing you are going to bore in on is what type of kid is he. Sometimes its at the same time depending on what happens. If a program "coach" ignores the type of kids he allows in his program for talents sake only he will never build a solid winning program that teaches not only baseball but life lessons through baseball. He will have constant turmoil and misery. And he will be miserable most if not all the time. And so will his players. It simply is not worth it.
So if your getting paid peanuts why would you want to be around kids that you do not like? Why would you want spend your time working with kids you do not like? Why would you want to go the extra mile for a kid who has a bad attitude? And why would you want to put your other kids in a situation where they had a team mate like this as well? To win a high school game?
Here is what happens when kids realize that a certain type of kid is not going to be allowed to be a certain type of kid in your program. They either decide not to even try out in the first place. They put on a good face in front of you but eventually the true person comes out. They make a concious effort to change in order to be in the program.
You learn from experience. When I first started coaching everyone came out. We were a school at that time with about 600 students and we would have 50-60 come out. Within a couple of years we were down to 35-45 coming out. Now the school is around 1,100 students. We have around 40 come out each year. We dont have any bad attitude kids come out. We already know all of them from the summer and fall workouts. The ones with bad attitudes quickly learn they are not in a place for them.
The first thing you are going to notice about a player is his ability or inability to play the game. The very next thing you are going to bore in on is what type of kid is he. Sometimes its at the same time depending on what happens. If a program "coach" ignores the type of kids he allows in his program for talents sake only he will never build a solid winning program that teaches not only baseball but life lessons through baseball. He will have constant turmoil and misery. And he will be miserable most if not all the time. And so will his players. It simply is not worth it.
quote:I figured it up one year and it came out to around 30 Cent per hour.
I make this point to our parents every season at the first meeting. I am the treasurer of the baseball booster club, so I talk to them about fundraising.
I tell them that these men aren't doing this for the money. The compensation is shockingly low. If an employer tried to pay the hourly rate our coaches receive, he would be put in jail.
So my point is that our coaches sacrifice their time and energy to teach our kids the lessons that baseball can teach, and it is our (parents') duty to help raise the money to give them the resources to be able to do it well.
Part of the deal, in my mind, is that the coaches don't have to put up with kids who cop an attitude or won't do what they say.
I've seen it proven time and time again - the character of the team reflects the character of the coaching staff. The standards they set permeate the program. Kids who might have an attitude with a different type of coaching staff have not attitude at all with a good high character staff.
And personally, I think it is a tragedy to allow a kid to play baseball with a bad attitude. The game has so many valuable life lessons, but most of them are rendered moot if a kid is allowed to play it the wrong way.
quote:I tell them that these men aren't doing this for the money. The compensation is shockingly low. If an employer tried to pay the hourly rate our coaches receive, he would be put in jail.
So my point is that our coaches sacrifice their time and energy to teach our kids the lessons that baseball can teach, and it is our (parents') duty to help raise the money to give them the resources to be able to do it well.
In our area, coaches get paid well on top of their regular teacher's salary which is very good and have a nice compensation package. They're not exactly sacrificing their time for nothing. The purpose of the booster club is to give the players the things they don't get from the board of ed like equpiment, uniforms, warmup jacketss pregame sandwiches and drinks etc.. The coaches don't need the booster club money. The program and the players do.