I've heard announcers of MLB games talk about how players purposely foul off pitches that they can't hit well. My question is are college and MLB hitters really good enough to foul off 90+mph fastballs or good curve balls/sliders?
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Eaglecoach- Absolutely. That is part of what makes a great hitter great. As a pitcher, they are my toughest out.
During a summer tournament in high school in 2008 I was watching a semifinal game that would determine who we would play in the championship. One of the teams had a pitcher who was throwing with considerable velocity, probably 93-94 mph. Up to the plate was the other team's center fielder, the #3 hitter on the team. The 0-1 pitch was a fastball on the inside corner and the batter swung extremely late, looking like he wasn't even close. As a pitcher, I watched and thought to myself "I'd go with it again, regardless of how good my breaking ball is (this pitcher had a pretty good breaking ball). Make him prove he can catch up to it."
The pitcher thought the same way I did and proceeded to throw another fastball in just about the same location. The batter squared it up and hit it about 440 feet over the left center field fence for a no-doubter home run.
I was sitting with a teammate of mine who had just been drafted in the 10th round and he turned to me right away and said "he did that on purpose, definitely." I said "did what on purpose?" and he said "he definitely swung at that first fastball late knowing that the pitcher was going to throw another one. I would've done the same thing."
I thought about it for a second...there was no way I could've done that!
I don't know who the pitcher was, but the hitter was this guy: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/.../id/30836/mike-trout
During a summer tournament in high school in 2008 I was watching a semifinal game that would determine who we would play in the championship. One of the teams had a pitcher who was throwing with considerable velocity, probably 93-94 mph. Up to the plate was the other team's center fielder, the #3 hitter on the team. The 0-1 pitch was a fastball on the inside corner and the batter swung extremely late, looking like he wasn't even close. As a pitcher, I watched and thought to myself "I'd go with it again, regardless of how good my breaking ball is (this pitcher had a pretty good breaking ball). Make him prove he can catch up to it."
The pitcher thought the same way I did and proceeded to throw another fastball in just about the same location. The batter squared it up and hit it about 440 feet over the left center field fence for a no-doubter home run.
I was sitting with a teammate of mine who had just been drafted in the 10th round and he turned to me right away and said "he did that on purpose, definitely." I said "did what on purpose?" and he said "he definitely swung at that first fastball late knowing that the pitcher was going to throw another one. I would've done the same thing."
I thought about it for a second...there was no way I could've done that!
I don't know who the pitcher was, but the hitter was this guy: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/.../id/30836/mike-trout
I think hitters who take a swing as late as possible approach to keep from getting fooled will tend to foul off a lot of fastballs unless they happen to get one right in their wheelhouse. I don't think they are actually trying to hit the ball less than square though. JMO.
OUTSTANDING STORY!! Thanks.quote:I thought about it for a second...there was no way I could've done that!
I don't know who the pitcher was, but the hitter was this guy: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/.../id/30836/mike-trout
Interesting topic. So in the story above, if the hitter can hit that 92+ fastball, why not hit it on the 1st pitch? You just sit on the fastball and no need to get behind. Specially if you are not Mike Trout.
One approach that I like as a hitter- if a pitcher has a big curveball and tends to dominate with it, take the 1st curveball that you see. Then , say something like... "WOW what a curveball, I better be ready for the next one" then make an obvious move to setup closer to the pitcher on the batter box. Make sure the catcher is aware of this.
Catcher thinks you are expecting another curveball... But will call the fastball. So now the hitter just sit on the fastball, which is what he wanted.
www.katyhittingcoach.com
One approach that I like as a hitter- if a pitcher has a big curveball and tends to dominate with it, take the 1st curveball that you see. Then , say something like... "WOW what a curveball, I better be ready for the next one" then make an obvious move to setup closer to the pitcher on the batter box. Make sure the catcher is aware of this.
Catcher thinks you are expecting another curveball... But will call the fastball. So now the hitter just sit on the fastball, which is what he wanted.
www.katyhittingcoach.com
Albert- I thought of this too. I assume a batter such as Trout in the example I gave thought that the 0-1 pitch was located very well, and is willing to take his chances that the pitcher will have trouble locating that well twice in a row. In this particular case, he was right.
Its a chess game, after all.
Its a chess game, after all.
There was a discussion about this a few years ago here... although not limited to MLB and college players
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...4941/m/611109455/p/1
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...4941/m/611109455/p/1
My son has been trained on allowing some pitches to get deep to foul them off, typically pitches off the plate that could be borderline.
Some hitters can, others can't. Luke Appling was able to foul off 26 pitches in a row... now that's impressive.
I am scratching my head on this one???
A hitter is there to hit, not foul off a pitch intentionaly IMO.
I've been around a lot of hitters for a long time and never heard about this being taught.
See it, hit it hard!
Lefty
A hitter is there to hit, not foul off a pitch intentionaly IMO.
I've been around a lot of hitters for a long time and never heard about this being taught.
See it, hit it hard!
Lefty
quote:Originally posted by Sdlefty:
I am scratching my head on this one???
A hitter is there to hit, not foul off a pitch intentionaly IMO.
I've been around a lot of hitters for a long time and never heard about this being taught.
See it, hit it hard!
Lefty
I don't think it can be taught. Nor would I teach it. Luke Appling fouled off 26 consecutive pitches because he couldn't get any baseballs to autograph (Comiskey was a notorious cheapskate).
LOL 
My son has been taught extensively to "read" pitches. He knows the strikezone and he can hit oppo with power, middle in he will turn on it and make a pitcher sorry he tried to get in his kitchen. He is extremely comfortable with two strikes.
At the levels he has played so far pitchers do not work him too much on the inside. He sees a lot of sliders and curves and changeups. Many a baseball or two off the plate. Players that try to turn on these pitches often see results resembling a ground ball to short stop. My son has been taught to allow that outside pitch to get deeper in the zone. With that approach he hits with power to right center with some frequency. When the pitch is off the plate with two strikes in an area that is too close to take he will foul it off with a hard hit ball right side of the first bSe line. Hit the ball where it is pitched. Sometimes that is foul down the first base line, other times it's a triple. But if you try to pull it often it's a groundball out or a called strike by an umpire.
A hitter that understands the zone and is confident of his ability to hit with power to all fields is a tough out.
You get there by learning how to hit the ball into the right side dug out with power on a slider two baseball widths off the plate in a two strike count, especially with runners on.
Next pitch may be middle in and taken for a ride.
It is a beautiful thing.
At the levels he has played so far pitchers do not work him too much on the inside. He sees a lot of sliders and curves and changeups. Many a baseball or two off the plate. Players that try to turn on these pitches often see results resembling a ground ball to short stop. My son has been taught to allow that outside pitch to get deeper in the zone. With that approach he hits with power to right center with some frequency. When the pitch is off the plate with two strikes in an area that is too close to take he will foul it off with a hard hit ball right side of the first bSe line. Hit the ball where it is pitched. Sometimes that is foul down the first base line, other times it's a triple. But if you try to pull it often it's a groundball out or a called strike by an umpire.
A hitter that understands the zone and is confident of his ability to hit with power to all fields is a tough out.
You get there by learning how to hit the ball into the right side dug out with power on a slider two baseball widths off the plate in a two strike count, especially with runners on.
Next pitch may be middle in and taken for a ride.
It is a beautiful thing.
Another way of posing the question:
What would you want to teach a hitter to do in a two strike count with runners on, two outs, bottom of the 9th, down by a run when a fastball approaches 2 baseballs wide off the plate?
Do you want him to take? Do you want him to turn on it hitting a groundball to 2B or should he foul it off and try to get a better pitch that he can drive?
What would you want to teach a hitter to do in a two strike count with runners on, two outs, bottom of the 9th, down by a run when a fastball approaches 2 baseballs wide off the plate?
Do you want him to take? Do you want him to turn on it hitting a groundball to 2B or should he foul it off and try to get a better pitch that he can drive?
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
Another way of posing the question:
What would you want to teach a hitter to do in a two strike count with runners on, two outs, bottom of the 9th, down by a run when a fastball approaches 2 baseballs wide off the plate?
Do you want him to take? Do you want him to turn on it hitting a groundball to 2B or should he foul it off and try to get a better pitch that he can drive?
I teach to stay agressive. In this situation, I would say go with the pitch and try to hit it hard. For sure not want to take that close of a pitch or roll it over. Go with it and hit it hard!
Lefty
And it would result in a foul ball.
Just because you let the ball get deep does not mean you are not swinging aggressively. You are just waiting a split second longer before you start your aggressive swing.
Just because you let the ball get deep does not mean you are not swinging aggressively. You are just waiting a split second longer before you start your aggressive swing.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
And it would result in a foul ball.
Just because you let the ball get deep does not mean you are not swinging aggressively. You are just waiting a split second longer before you start your aggressive swing.
If you want to foul it off, fine. To me its a mind set. I thinking a double down the line.
Lefty
I would keep your guy aggressive, I am sure he will be fine.
But the answer to the OP remains, yes.
But the answer to the OP remains, yes.
Yes, hitters can foul off pitches on purpose. When they are behind in counts such as 0-2, 1-2 you let the ball travel. This allows you to pick up spin on the ball. Thus fighting off pitches, a lot of hitters will be sitting on a pitch in certain counts ex 2-0, 3-1 fastball counts, this is why they looks silly or fooled when the pitcher throws them an off speed pitch.
The best way to foul off pitches that are near the strike zone late in the count is to have a flat bat working through the zone and staying towards the pitcher.
The best way to foul off pitches that are near the strike zone late in the count is to have a flat bat working through the zone and staying towards the pitcher.
doubt it..balls comming 95 all ur thinking is squaring up..
wogdoggy - what about the 78 MPH change up that you are fooled on, do you swing through it? Or, do you try to foul it off?
What about the 88 MPH Slider breaking off the plate with two strikes? Hope the ump calls it a ball?
A 95 MPH Heater is a pitch to turn on, not foul off.
How many 95 MPH does a MLB hitter see in a game? How about a Minor League Player, College or High School?
You try to foul off pitches you are fooled on, most often that will be an offspeed pitch. Don't players sit fastball, and adjust?
I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to understand. My son does understand it and ended his first pro season with a .442 OBP. That happens when you foul off pitches that you can not get good wood on.
What about the 88 MPH Slider breaking off the plate with two strikes? Hope the ump calls it a ball?
A 95 MPH Heater is a pitch to turn on, not foul off.
How many 95 MPH does a MLB hitter see in a game? How about a Minor League Player, College or High School?
You try to foul off pitches you are fooled on, most often that will be an offspeed pitch. Don't players sit fastball, and adjust?
I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to understand. My son does understand it and ended his first pro season with a .442 OBP. That happens when you foul off pitches that you can not get good wood on.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
wogdoggy - what about the 78 MPH change up that you are fooled on, do you swing through it? Or, do you try to foul it off?
What about the 88 MPH Slider breaking off the plate with two strikes? Hope the ump calls it a ball?
A 95 MPH Heater is a pitch to turn on, not foul off.
How many 95 MPH does a MLB hitter see in a game? How about a Minor League Player, College or High School?
You try to foul off pitches you are fooled on, most often that will be an offspeed pitch. Don't players sit fastball, and adjust?
I do not understand why this is a difficult concept to understand. My son does understand it and ended his first pro season with a .442 OBP. That happens when you foul off pitches that you can not get good wood on.
if your not thinking about squaring up every pitch your killing yourself.sorry
I suspect that if you look at hitters with decent averages with two strikes, you will see guys who are good at fouling off pitches.
I remember Moises Alou when he was with the Astros. That guy could hang in there until the pitcher made a mistake.
I remember Moises Alou when he was with the Astros. That guy could hang in there until the pitcher made a mistake.
Wogdoggy -
When a hitter sees a pitch coming and makes the decision to swing he intends to square up on it and drive it, not foul it off.
If he is fooled, the great thing about this game, and what makes it so difficult to master, is a hitters ability to make late adjustments to his swing. Late adjustments on a 92MPH pitch...what kind of hand eye coordination is required for that? How quick must the brain be working.
Someone who believes in Pure Rotational Swing or PCR does not comprehend this apparently (not saying that that is you), but those that believe that the "hands are along for the ride" may hit some monster shots, but they will strike out a lot more often than the player who uses his core and rotational power, but understands that his hands are more valuable that just needed to grab a bat.
A player who has trained his hands along with the rest of his body, is a player capable of making late adjustments to high level pitching. Some times this benefit will be fouling off a breaking pitch as opposed to rolling over on it and grounding out to second or short.
As twotex indicates, you want to hit pitchers mistakes, not their best pitch. You may see one mistake per at bat, if you are lucky.
When a hitter sees a pitch coming and makes the decision to swing he intends to square up on it and drive it, not foul it off.
If he is fooled, the great thing about this game, and what makes it so difficult to master, is a hitters ability to make late adjustments to his swing. Late adjustments on a 92MPH pitch...what kind of hand eye coordination is required for that? How quick must the brain be working.
Someone who believes in Pure Rotational Swing or PCR does not comprehend this apparently (not saying that that is you), but those that believe that the "hands are along for the ride" may hit some monster shots, but they will strike out a lot more often than the player who uses his core and rotational power, but understands that his hands are more valuable that just needed to grab a bat.
A player who has trained his hands along with the rest of his body, is a player capable of making late adjustments to high level pitching. Some times this benefit will be fouling off a breaking pitch as opposed to rolling over on it and grounding out to second or short.
As twotex indicates, you want to hit pitchers mistakes, not their best pitch. You may see one mistake per at bat, if you are lucky.
quote:When a hitter sees a pitch coming and makes the decision to swing he intends to square up on it and drive it, not foul it off.
I'm a fan of the majority of poster's posts but I would have to say, being a nitpicker that I may be, that a good hitter makes decisions NOT to swing. They are prepared and ready and planning (for the most part) to swing on every pitch. It is far less time consuming for the brain to decide NOT to swing.
I agree RedSoxFan....depending on the pitch, that decision, not to swing, occurs at different points of time as the pitch approaches the hitting zone.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
Wogdoggy -
When a hitter sees a pitch coming and makes the decision to swing he intends to square up on it and drive it, not foul it off.
If he is fooled, the great thing about this game, and what makes it so difficult to master, is a hitters ability to make late adjustments to his swing. Late adjustments on a 92MPH pitch...what kind of hand eye coordination is required for that? How quick must the brain be working.
Someone who believes in Pure Rotational Swing or PCR does not comprehend this apparently (not saying that that is you), but those that believe that the "hands are along for the ride" may hit some monster shots, but they will strike out a lot more often than the player who uses his core and rotational power, but understands that his hands are more valuable that just needed to grab a bat.
A player who has trained his hands along with the rest of his body, is a player capable of making late adjustments to high level pitching. Some times this benefit will be fouling off a breaking pitch as opposed to rolling over on it and grounding out to second or short.
As twotex indicates, you want to hit pitchers mistakes, not their best pitch. You may see one mistake per at bat, if you are lucky.
This is an excellent post. I agree, you want to drive mistakes. A fastball up in the zone can be driven 450 feet with a good swing.
wogdoggy- I find it awfully comical that you're trying to establish an argument with people that are telling you that you're not only wrong, but proving how as well.
quote:Originally posted by J H:
wogdoggy- I find it awfully comical that you're trying to establish an argument with people that are telling you that you're not only wrong, but proving how as well.
reynolds talked about this ..go up there and try to foul stuff off and youll be on the bench in no time..get in a box have somebody throw you pitches and think about fouling them off INSTEAD of squaring them up..let me know how you do.lol
just wondering what your MINDSET is when you are THINKINK of fouling off strike two? just hit the side of the ball the top of the ball the bottom of the ball.
what have you prooved? lol..get in the box and think foul it off..and then get your kid some s****r lessons
quote:reynolds talked about this ..go up there and try to foul stuff off and youll be on the bench in no time..get in a box have somebody throw you pitches and think about fouling them off INSTEAD of squaring them up..let me know how you do.lol
just wondering what your MINDSET is when you are THINKINK of fouling off strike two? just hit the side of the ball the top of the ball the bottom of the ball.
what have you prooved? lol..get in the box and think foul it off..and then get your kid some s****r lessons
floridafan's son is an infielder in the White Sox organization. floridafan is telling you that his son does this.
I don't know who you're referring to as "reynolds", although I'll assume its Harold Reynolds. Maybe he was unable to do this. That's fine, different hitters have different approaches. But you're being extremely naive to believe that it can't be done, especially when there are people here that are literally telling you it is done on a daily basis and giving you examples of it.
wogdoggy, have you ever faced a 95 mph fastball or a professional hitter? Where is your proof in this discussion?
quote:Originally posted by J H:quote:reynolds talked about this ..go up there and try to foul stuff off and youll be on the bench in no time..get in a box have somebody throw you pitches and think about fouling them off INSTEAD of squaring them up..let me know how you do.lol
just wondering what your MINDSET is when you are THINKINK of fouling off strike two? just hit the side of the ball the top of the ball the bottom of the ball.
what have you prooved? lol..get in the box and think foul it off..and then get your kid some s****r lessons
floridafan's son is an infielder in the White Sox organization. floridafan is telling you that his son does this.
I don't know who you're referring to as "reynolds", although I'll assume its Harold Reynolds. Maybe he was unable to do this. That's fine, different hitters have different approaches. But you're being extremely naive to believe that it can't be done, especially when there are people here that are literally telling you it is done on a daily basis and giving you examples of it.
wogdoggy, have you ever faced a 95 mph fastball or a professional hitter? Where is your proof in this discussion?
i could give a rats rear end where his kid plays..whats the mindset when you are trying to "foul" one off does your brain switch modes into NOT wanting to hit the ball in the middle? ..so i guess you go from thinking hit the ball to tip the ball?..lol cmon..
quote:i could give a rats rear end where his kid plays..whats the mindset when you are trying to "foul" one off does your brain switch modes into NOT wanting to hit the ball in the middle? ..so i guess you go from thinking hit the ball to tip the ball?..lol cmon..
Yes, precisely. I'm not really too sure why you continue to argue something that has been proven to work at the professional level...and has been proven on this thread. Do you have any proof of this method NOT working?
FF's descriptions earlier in the post are dead on. This is what I was taught as a player and what I teach to most of my players as a coach. I have experienced much success with it and have witnessed much success with it.
No, of course you don't go up thinking "I'm going to foul this pitch off". But there are two-strike scenarios where many hitters will attack a ball in the zone and fight off borderline pitches that may be just off the black but still called a strike. As FF said, the only way to avoid hitting it weakly or not hitting it at all is to wait and take it foul away. Also, some hitters will get a bit closer to the plate with two strikes to be sure they can protect against that pitch away. If they get fooled on something inside black, particularly off speed, they may have to just yank it foul (pull) to live to see another pitch. The hitter is not trying to nick the top or bottom of the ball. He is still hitting it squarely in regards to the horizontal plane, just pushing or pulling foul due to the pitch location and situation.
It sort of baffles me that some can't fathom this to be true. This is just an extension of "hit it where it is pitched". Pitch recognition. Adjusting your approach with two strikes. These are commonly taught concepts.
No, of course you don't go up thinking "I'm going to foul this pitch off". But there are two-strike scenarios where many hitters will attack a ball in the zone and fight off borderline pitches that may be just off the black but still called a strike. As FF said, the only way to avoid hitting it weakly or not hitting it at all is to wait and take it foul away. Also, some hitters will get a bit closer to the plate with two strikes to be sure they can protect against that pitch away. If they get fooled on something inside black, particularly off speed, they may have to just yank it foul (pull) to live to see another pitch. The hitter is not trying to nick the top or bottom of the ball. He is still hitting it squarely in regards to the horizontal plane, just pushing or pulling foul due to the pitch location and situation.
It sort of baffles me that some can't fathom this to be true. This is just an extension of "hit it where it is pitched". Pitch recognition. Adjusting your approach with two strikes. These are commonly taught concepts.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:
FF's descriptions earlier in the post are dead on. This is what I was taught as a player and what I teach to most of my players as a coach. I have experienced much success with it and have witnessed much success with it.
No, of course you don't go up thinking "I'm going to foul this pitch off". But there are two-strike scenarios where many hitters will attack a ball in the zone and fight off borderline pitches that may be just off the black but still called a strike. As FF said, the only way to avoid hitting it weakly or not hitting it at all is to wait and take it foul away. Also, some hitters will get a bit closer to the plate with two strikes to be sure they can protect against that pitch away. If they get fooled on something inside black, particularly off speed, they may have to just yank it foul (pull) to live to see another pitch. The hitter is not trying to nick the top or bottom of the ball. He is still hitting it squarely in regards to the horizontal plane, just pushing or pulling foul due to the pitch location and situation.
It sort of baffles me that some can't fathom this to be true. This is just an extension of "hit it where it is pitched". Pitch recognition. Adjusting your approach with two strikes. These are commonly taught concepts.
The hitter is not trying to nick the top or bottom of the ball. He is still hitting it squarely in regards to the horizontal plane, just pushing or pulling foul due to the pitch location and situation.
so hes trying to square it up FOUL..ok..lol
Back to the original question? Do ball players swing late to fool pitchers into throwing the same pitch again. No. They adjust. Good hitters adjust from at bat to at bat. Great hitters adjust the same at bat.
As far as fouling pitches off. In my humble opinion, Good hitters do not simply attempt to square up a pitch. They try to hit the ball where they are most likely to have the most success. i.e. Right handed batter at the plate/right handed pitcher on an outside slider they will have to wait till the ball is deep in the zone and drive it. If they are too late, well you have a foul ball. If you have right on right with a two strike count and get a high fastball they might foul it straight back. Curve they may be a bit ahead and pull it foul. this goes on and on till one or the other wins.
As far as fouling pitches off. In my humble opinion, Good hitters do not simply attempt to square up a pitch. They try to hit the ball where they are most likely to have the most success. i.e. Right handed batter at the plate/right handed pitcher on an outside slider they will have to wait till the ball is deep in the zone and drive it. If they are too late, well you have a foul ball. If you have right on right with a two strike count and get a high fastball they might foul it straight back. Curve they may be a bit ahead and pull it foul. this goes on and on till one or the other wins.
I think that you and I agree Big Ed. I only add that the slider breaking off the plate deep in the zone that may be called a strike, might be worth swinging at knowing that it will go foul. It avoids the umpire taking the bat out of the hitters hands.
I know my son has been trained to take this approach.
I know my son has been trained to take this approach.
Just now, WS game two, 8th inning, bases loaded, Pence batting, falls behind 0-2, next pitch 2 balls off the plate, clearly he swings in an effort to just get a piece and foul it off so he can live to see another pitch. He is successful and eventually ends up with a sac fly to give the Giants a 2-0 lead.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Just now, WS game two, 8th inning, bases loaded, Pence batting, falls behind 0-2, next pitch 2 balls off the plate, clearly he swings in an effort to just get a piece and foul it off so he can live to see another pitch. He is successful and eventually ends up with a sac fly to give the Giants a 2-0 lead.
so he wasnt trying to square up those pitches? just trying to hit the top or bottom of the ball..what an amazing feat when the sweet spot of the bat and ball are less than a dime in size.
That is why only good hitter really do this.
quote:so he wasnt trying to square up those pitches? just trying to hit the top or bottom of the ball..what an amazing feat when the sweet spot of the bat and ball are less than a dime in size.
Yes.
