Canes vs. Stars

Welcome to the HSBBWEB. Quality first post. I'll take your bait.

Above their talent level? Based on who's opinion? Yours? I am sure the college coaches who have signed our kids feel MUCH differently than you. Secondly, if they are "above their talent level", why do they continue to contribute on their college teams? A key indicator of a kid being a poor fit for a school would be transferring out. I don't see that very often from our kids. Is there someting I am missing?

The reality of it is that the college coaches choose who they would like to play on their team. Summer teams (Canes, Stars, etc.) do NOTHING more than put the players in front of the coaches so they can make their decision on the kids. We DO NOT place kids anywhere. We get talented kids. We put them in positions to be successful and they are. There seems to be quite a bit of Canes envy from many of you NoVa Stars parents & players (not all...but many). I don't get it. If you are happy with your team, why does it matter what the Canes do?

As for the Stars beating the Canes on a consistent basis... I don't know what that means but congratulations. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. While you focus on that, we will continue to focus on winning a 3rd PG World Wood Bat ring.

I have the utmost respect for the Stars staff. They do a good job and seem to be good guys.

Util,
Welcome to the board, but a couple of thoughts...

1) Are these statements your opinion? Are you speaking for others by saying "you've heard a lot of guys"...or is this something you honestly believe? Can you back this up that you personally feel that boys have gotten into schools that are "above their level?" Which schools are you aware that do this?

2) Be it Canes, Stars or any other VA team, I am not aware of any College coach that will be talked into taking some kid that is not up to that college's baseball standards. Schools have a limited number of slots and to use them on boys that do not have the talent to help them improve makes no sense.

3) I am not aware of any team "consistently" beating another team. Many times these teams play each other, they are showcases where the teams intend to pitch 3 pitchers and swap out many kids in their line-up to showcase the kids. It's not so much about winning / losing as much as getting the kids exposure.

I am repeating what I have heard from a lot of guys around the game, and used the Stars/Canes match-up as an example. All I wanted was to give a chance to RedBird for a rebuttal seeing as I haven't heard thoughts on the situation from many Canes guys.

The Canes win a lot, there is no denying that, I was just curious as to where the rivalry started, mostly.

1) If all you wanted was my opinion, you could have emailed me. I don't see that as your only motive.

2) "A lot of guys around the game"? Like who? College coaches? Players? Parents? Summer coaches? Pro Scouts?

3) I don't see it as a rivalry so I don't understand?

I wasn't aware email was an option, if I had, I would have done so.

Almost solely players.

A lot of people I have talked to have called it a rivalry.

As Redbird alluded to, the Canes won the 16U WWB National Championship in 2009, coming in first ahead of approximately 175 teams, the majority of which were very talented. The Canes repeated (albeit a team one year younger) and won the 16U WWB National Championship in 2010, coming in first ahead of even more teams than in 2009. In that same year (2010), the Canes placed 3rd in the WWB Championship in Jupiter, one of the most recruited events year in, year out. I have got to believe that the Canes must have some very good talent to do so well in those tournaments.

As far as the Stars consistently beating the Canes, I can only address the four games the Canes North played against Stars teams in 2009 (they did not play them in 2010):
Canes North over Stars White 8-0
Canes North over Stars Red 8-0
Stars Red over Canes North 8-0
Canes North over Stars Red 13-1
Not sure that 1 out of 4 is consistently beating the Canes.

If the Canes are placing players way above their talent level, someone should inform the pros. In the most recent draft (June 2011), 18 then current or former Canes were drafted.

Im going to have to agree with WB on this one!

Utilman,

It looks like you're blowing a lot of smoke where there isn't a fire.

My son was with the Stars. We certainly knew who the Canes are and what they had accomplished. There was some movement of players between the teams, and some of the Stars and Canes players were high school teammates, but it would be a real stretch to say there is a rivalry between the programs.

The teams have different operational models designed to serve different markets, and their paths seldom cross.

The Stars draw from one corner of the state and have a lot of local practices and travel league games. Their coaches cultivate relationships with in-state schools, mostly in the Colonial Athletic Association. A couple of their 2011's signed with UVA, but they are not and don't pretend to be a pipeline to major conferences or the pros. In fact, they schedule their East Cobb trips around the Commonwealth Games because in-state exposure is their bread and butter. Along the same lines, I think they facilitate placing a few players on other teams going to Jupiter, but do not send their whole team. Also, comparatively few Stars players attend individual showcases to get PG ratings. I never heard the Stars coaches promise or discuss exposure to pro scouts. They help Northern Virginia kids prepare for and find a place to play college ball.

The Canes, on the other hand, are the Canes. They draw from a larger geographic area and are recognized year in and year out as an elite national program with major conference and pro prospects who compete to win the biggest national tournaments. Their record speaks for itself.

As near as I can tell, both programs are good at what they do. I really didn't hear a lot of discussion about the Canes from my vantage point in the bleachers at Stars games. If there was any jealousy, it was kept under wraps. Respect, yes. Resentment, I don't think so.

You might want to be a little more circumspect before trying to stir up hate and discontent with vague reports and un-sourced rumors.

One thing for sure, in travel baseball, you will definitely "hear a lot of talk". It's a mistake to believe a lot of it, especially when it is at odds with all objective indicators.

Wow...way to stir things up on your rookie post...lol

I have been around the travel circuit for some time now and have a son that has played with both the Stars and the Canes (albeit one more than the other). I really don't see any rivalry, except maybe when the two teams are playing each other. Mainly because all the players know each other, or about each other, and they all have a competitive nature that helps make them good. The Canes have a deeper history and the Stars are building their own.

As another poster eluded to, winning an idividual game between these programs is not the objective. The objective is to get all their players the proper exposure to college coaches. That means pulling a hot pitcher or player to let the next one show their skills. It isn't a formula for winning games. Not to mention, the scout couldn't care less who wins these games. They come to see if there are any players worthy of a place on their respective teams...and Canes and the Stars know this.

As for either group "placing" players with schools. I really get sick of this notion. As Redbird stated, the players are given the opportunity to play in front of many college coaches. It is those college coaches that make the decision to recruit a player, or not. There isn't a college coach worth his salt that would allow a player to be "placed" with them.

I have nothing but respect for the Canes and Stars groups, along with several others. They bust their butts to give their players the chance to perform and sell THEMSELVES to college coaches.

I say this to anyone that asks...If you have a player that wants to play ball in college and you are NOT with a group like the Canes, Stars, Cardinals, Rookies, etc. (I know there are others), then you are doing it wrong. These are the groups that get the college coach exposure for the players. The players get the schools interested in them, not the program.

I appreciate your including our Cardinals team in that compliment, and I agree with most of what you say, except for the part about placing players.

It is true that you can't make a college coach come after you all on your lonesome. But it's also true that a commitment is a two-way relationship -- that is, it's not all dictated by the coaches. Quite often the college coach gets interested because the player initiates contact, asks to be evaluated, and then performs well once seen.

College coaches like to be focusing on players who have already let it be known that they would actually be interested in their schools and their programs. It's a lot more efficient than trying to ID talent and then sell them. They actually do both, but players are well advised to push themselves out there to make life easier for both sides.

Coaches also develop relationships with the heads of travel programs whom they come to trust. If someone has tried to sell you a kid who's not up to snuff (whether in terms of baseball talent level, academic performance, or character issues), you remember that. If someone demonstrates that their evaluations are solid, that their word is reliable, etc., then that is going to go a long way towards helping a particular kid actually get seen and get a head start down the particular program's recruiting pipeline.

I'll refrain from tooting our own horn, but I can assure you that the Canes have built these relationships in spades, and that is how they avoid having talented kids go overlooked.

One key to this is what I have always said: You should always place your son on the most talented team that will have him on the field regularly. The team with the most talent is going to attract the most scouts, and is also likely to be the team with the relationships that will help you. But you should assure that you are actually going to play before committing, because joining a team where you're never going to play doesn't help one bit.

The big mistake people make is choosing a team just because it's convenient/close to home, or because their buddies from their school team play there, or because -- and this happens WAY too much -- they want to be on a team where they feel they are the big dog and the center of attention. When we play against these teams, it is often the case that there are coaches in the stands who came to see our players, but no one that they brought to the party. I am not there when two of these types of teams play each other, but I can only imagine that those games are played for an audience of parents. That's fine for your typical 12u travel team but it doesn't help your college recruiting objectives much.

I should clarify that this is not a dig at the Stars at all, as they do a fine job and have built an enviable track record for, pardon my saying so, placing their guys. It's just a general comment about your travel team options in general. You'll always have folks out there who will want to have sour grapes about teams they couldn't make, or who will want to justify their having chosen the wrong team for their sons. I would suggest you let results speak for themselves and ignore all the negative talk you hear.

Midlo...2 things:

1. What are we in disagreement about? My "placing" view?

2. I am not sure I understand your "this is not a dig" comment about the Stars. I'm not that smart, please clarify.

Thanks

1. Yes, if I understood you correctly.

2. Just clarifying that when contrasting some groups of teams with others, I did not mean to imply that the Stars were in the lesser categories.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
1. Yes, if I understood you correctly.

2. Just clarifying that when contrasting some groups of teams with others, I did not mean to imply that the Stars were in the lesser categories.

1. So you are saying that these groups actually PLACE players at certain schools? Please don't say yes.

2. Spit it out Midlo...contrast/compare?...WTF are you talking about? I didn't compare or contrast...I merely said that there are several groups that do a great job at getting their players in front of college coaches.

On #2, I was clarifying my own comments, not addressing yours at all, so there's nothing there for you to take offense at.

On # 1, we don't "place" players in the sense that you might mean it. We certainly don't have spots reserved that we can just shoot kids into. Nobody has that kind of pull. We do "place" players in the sense of matchmaking their capabilities and interests with someone who's looking for that skill set. We do regularly speaking of "placing players" with that meaning. And I think it is a better description of what actually goes on, because there is an awful lot of communication during games, between games, and well after we've left town -- you don't just show up, play, and hope for the best.

I don't think we are actually in disagreement, I just wanted to clarify that the term isn't always used the way you might think of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
On #2, I was clarifying my own comments, not addressing yours at all, so there's nothing there for you to take offense at.

On # 1, we don't "place" players in the sense that you might mean it. We certainly don't have spots reserved that we can just shoot kids into. Nobody has that kind of pull. We do "place" players in the sense of matchmaking their capabilities and interests with someone who's looking for that skill set. We do regularly speaking of "placing players" with that meaning. And I think it is a better description of what actually goes on, because there is an awful lot of communication during games, between games, and well after we've left town -- you don't just show up, play, and hope for the best.

I don't think we are actually in disagreement, I just wanted to clarify that the term isn't always used the way you might think of it.

Clarifying? LOL

Are you guys somehow suggesting that when the Canes and Stars take the field against each other that neither the coaches nor players care about whether or not they win the game?

I happened to be at the Canes vs. Stars game at Virginia Tech this past season and you could fool me if that's what you are trying to say. Yes, I agree that the focus is getting players onto the field to be seen but please don't try to tell me that when two top caliber programs take the field against one another that everyone is just sitting on the bench not caring about who wins that game.

Competitors want to win, no matter the setting and when those players, on both sides, took the field that day they wanted to win that game to prove a point. Sure, the coaches want to get players on the field to be seen and they made that happen that day but there is also a certain amount of bragging rights. The Stars want to win so that they can continue to hopefully climb that ladder up to being recognized as a top flight program and the Canes certainly want to win to keep their position at the top. Because we all know that a winning program attracts talent.

I'm just saying that while I understand that there is this chess game of "placing" (I use that word at great peril it seems) kids in college and getting them playing time in front of scouts, that you cannot ignore the competition going on out on the field...

I'm completely flummoxed. I feel like everyone else wants to start an argument that I want no part of.

quote:

Originally posted by NOVABBall13:
Are you guys somehow suggesting that when the Canes and Stars take the field against each other that neither the coaches nor players care about whether or not they win the game? ...

We certainly want to win everytime we take the field. However, we aren't there to do things like sacrifice bunt. If I remember correctly the Stars bunted quite a bit. We would rather give our hitters a chance to show what they can do. I've never heard a college coach recruit a kid because he can bunt well.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
...We do "place" players in the sense of matchmaking their capabilities and interests with someone who's looking for that skill set. We do regularly speaking of "placing players" with that meaning. And I think it is a better description of what actually goes on, because there is an awful lot of communication during games, between games, and well after we've left town -- you don't just show up, play, and hope for the best...

Midlo,

I don't know any other team worth its salt that DOESN'T do what you have stated above.

Absolutely. I was trying to make that clear in response to this statement by dblemup:

quote:

As for either group "placing" players with schools. I really get sick of this notion.

Nope, no argument Midlo. At least not from me. I was just saying that while I understand the piece about Showcase ball and recruiting etc. that I don't automatically agree that winning isn't part of the equation...

Redbird, you're right to that point. I agree that there are certain things that you don't see within the Showcase format and bunting is probably one of them but I'm just saying that in general I don't believe that you can count out the will to win piece.

No one is going to cross the "unwritten rule" boundary, such as bunting, but everyone is pushing everything else to the limit. Like ensuring that the #1 pitcher is out there and goes 3 innings as opposed to maybe a more normal 2 innings etc. Just subtle things like that that do indicate that winning IS sort of important. Even between friends... LOL

And for crying out loud who would blame anyone if every so often the top teams did play to win when they competed against each other. There are certainly enough games where those teams are crushing their opposition and I am sure that both the players and the coaches alike enjoy the opportunity to really give it a go when they find themselves facing a team like the Canes.

I can tell you that the fans of the games certainly enjoy it when two heavyweights square off against each other...

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Absolutely. I was trying to make that clear in response to this statement by dblemup:

quote:

As for either group "placing" players with schools. I really get sick of this notion.

By "placing" the OP seemed to be implying that the 2 mentioned teams "place" players with schools...as in "here, take this player" . Not just place them in front of the schools which their skillset may fit best. I have MANY times, mainly from parents with none of the mentioned programs, "Billy is committed to State Tech because the Canes/Stars/whoever placed him there"...with no mention of his talent/grades/desires, etc. That is what I am commenting on.

Nova,

As far as we're concerned, we play games to win no matter who's out there against us. Building that mindset is part of what we want to do, part of what we want to show, part of what we believe people are looking for. I know Rich Graham has trouble sleeping any time we lose!

I'm a little bit different from Redbird in that I think a kid should show that he can execute a bunt and be a selfless player when the situation calls for it. Be a gamer. But I also understand where Redbird is coming from. A speed guy should show that he can bunt for a hit, or at least establish the threat so that he shows he can make the 3B play in. But I wouldn't ask that kid to bunt 3 times per game. I agree with Redbird, a player needs a fair chance to show what he can do with the bat all around.

What you do see sometimes is that if maybe a pitcher is starting and having an off day, we'll leave him out there in hopes he can work his way out of it, instead of coming with the quick hook you might have seen if we treated winning like it was the paramount objective. We probably lost 3 games this summer this way, but it is something you need to do to give that pitcher his shot. Once he heats up and throws 30 pitches, he's spent for the weekend, so either you see if he can right the ship or you end up with it just being a lost weekend for him. We have leaned towards giving a guy a chance to show he can turn it around and eat up innings on a day when he didn't have his best stuff. Sometimes that has a happy ending, but not always.

But there are also different approaches for different types of events. Lots of your weekend tourneys are 4 games period, no championship bracket. We will be more committed to a pitcher getting his innings done in that setting. But I can tell you when we get to East Cobb, we do what it takes to win and try to advance. In between those two examples there are other, not quite as high profile events where we come down in the middle.

Now, whatever 9 guys are in the lineup right now had better be busting it to win. But the choice of who those 9 are at the moment, what positions they're playing or what slots they have in the batting order, may all have been influenced up front by factors that go beyond "winning uber alles."

Dblemup:

quote:

By "placing" the OP seemed to be implying that the 2 mentioned teams "place" players with schools...as in "here, take this player" . Not just place them in front of the schools which their skillset may fit best.

The point I'm trying to make is that you've posited two extremes, but what really happens is somewhere in between. You are absolutely right that no one has the power to just tell a college coach, "Here's your guy, sign him!" But on the other hand, a lot more is done than just making sure a kid plays when a particular school is watching.

Academic performance, academic interests, finances, conduct/character, etc. are all extremely important as you note, and all of these things are discussed between travel coaches and college coaches.

Of course, if you don't play well enough, all the talk in the world won't solve that problem. But very often, colleges see more kids who can play than you might think. Getting to know the young man as a young man, and getting a strong positive reference from a trusted source, is important.

I think when someone says, "The Canes placed my son with XYZ," they're really just expressing satisfaction with what the Canes did to help the player reach his goals. It's a compliment, an endorsement, whatever you want to call it. I don't think anyone ever intends to suggest that any travel program has such an "in" that it can decide on its own who'll go where. I've never heard anyone claim that, and surely our team does not claim such powers over time and space.

Redbird, if in any game I am needed to lay down a bunt so we can win the game, I would have no problem doing it even if the Yankees were in the stands. When it comes down to it, if the game is on the line, you are there for your team first, and you second. Thats the way I see it

One thing is for certain, there are a number of folks here who are quite full of themselves--or their programs--or both...

To get a few things clear:

1) @Midlo - We play to win every game, whether it is a weekend game or wiffleball in the parking lot. Our kids (and coaches) are as competitive as anyone. There is no doubt about that but we do not showcase our kid's sac bunting skills. I have never ever heard a college coach compliment a kid on his sac bunting skills. We would rather get a hit with a runner on 2B or, at worst, pound the ball to the right side of the INF to move a runner. Coaches do not travel a few hours to watch a kid sac bunt - not one of them. They aren't upset with the kids when they sac bunt but they are frustrated with the coach for putting on the sign.

When we get to elimination tournaments (PG, Firecracker, Dynamic WS ,etc.), we will sac bunt but not during the 4 games during a weekend at UNC.

2) @Utilman, the player should sac bunt when given the signal to do so.

3) @Doubleswork, I am VERY proud of our program. Coaches and players alike work very hard. Every year, we expect to win every game. We expect to win a WWB Championship. We expect our kids to draw attention to themselves. It's not being cocky, but confidence that we are prepared. That's just us.

Redbird, it is clear from reading this thread, someone is just baiting you for a fight. Dont respond to them, the reputation of your program speaks for itself. The canes are a 1st class organization.

Doubles Work - I don't work for one of the programs but can say this after having a son playing in one of them. ALL of these guys on here that are part of these various programs SHOULD be proud, or full of themselves if you prefer. The different programs mentioned in just this thread are all highly successful at getting kids moved up to the next level, whether that be D-1/2/3. I have seen my own coach work hour after hour after hour with the players, on the phone etc. Our particular program has games and practices during the week so he has a HUGE commitment. Should he NOT be proud when 17 kids move on from his team at year's end? You're talking about competitive athletes and coaches and they hate to lose. And when they win they strut. Nothing wrong with that, unless you are the one that they just beat...

Here is my take on this discussion...
All coaches/ teams care about winning and losing because winning equates to recruitment. That’s how you get the talented kids. The more you win the more of the attraction to the organization and the easier to recruit talent. However, from what I have seen with the Canes coaches’ winning is not as important at the four game event on a weekend (the typical showcase at a College that is set as the main venue). I say this tongue in cheek because coaches will have rivalries too and everyone wants to beat their rivalry. It’s also human nature to care and I know the Cane’s coaching staff cares about losing. But the tournaments are what are important. The WWBA events at East Cobb, Fort Myers or Jupiter or any other tournament situation where playing for hardware and national recognition is the goal. No one should have a problem with this because as Novaball stated “Competitors want to win” and it goes back to my earlier comment about winning equates to recruitment. But during the typical weekend showcase, I think that the organizations that are mostly discussed on this forum (the Canes, the Braves, the Stars, the Cardinals etc) don’t worry about the competition or who they are putting on the field at these weekend events because as Redbird stated “the Canes (as do these other teams/ just look at their rosters) get talented kids” that will win more often than not.

If there is a "canes factor" (using the OPs term), its probably the fact that the canes have earned the position of probably fielding as many or more calls from college programs as they make. The canes have also earned the right to have college coaches at some of the best programs in the country going into each summer expecting to recruit from their roster. That puts canes players in a very good situation before the first pitch is thrown.

The stars have basically achieved the same position with many of the college programs in VA, as evidenced by the number of kids from this years class headed to JMU or William and Mary. That makes a lot of sense wife the stars are comprised almost entirely of northen Virginia kids, while again the canes aim to draw from wherever they can.

Finally, as far as a "rivalry"........that's just silly talk. The canes only have a very small number of northern va kids each year, and they are the only ones who would possibly see a game against the stars as anything other than a run of the mill game.

Bunting is very important. That said, If I'm a college coach I can teach anyone how to be a good bunter. I can not teach every player to be a good hitter. College recruiters don't travel across the country to watch a player bunt.

Then again, those college recruiters and scouts understand the situations and importance of winning certain games.

That is why I dislike the word "Showcase Tournament" being associated with the WWBA. Yes, there might be a lot of scouts and recruiters watching, but the top teams are there to win first and showcase second... Just like any other tournament.

It's the talented players "playing for keeps" that is the big attraction for the scouting community.

Not a big deal, but another thing that bothers me... East Cobb, Ft Myers, Jupiter. There are many events every year at these locations. They are not all the same.

A parent emailed me wondering why his son wasn't getting any attention from colleges. He said his son played in Jupiter and did very well. I asked for his name so I could check our database for scout notes. I couldn't find his son's name in our database. Come to find out, someone told him his son needed to get to Jupiter. He played in some event at Jupiter and thought that was the path to take.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Not a big deal, but another thing that bothers me... East Cobb, Ft Myers, Jupiter. There are many events every year at these locations. They are not all the same.

A parent emailed me wondering why his son wasn't getting any attention from colleges. He said his son played in Jupiter and did very well. I asked for his name so I could check our database for scout notes. I couldn't find his son's name in our database. Come to find out, someone told him his son needed to get to Jupiter. He played in some event at Jupiter and thought that was the path to take.

Point taken (a very good point). But in my defense I did mean your PG events (WWBA). Scouts honor!
By the way I cleaned up my post (or maybe cleaned up my act or both) to reflect. Thanks.

mathews41,

I know what people mean and so do most people. However, there are always some who don't understand.

Truth is we even call the WWBA World Championship... Jupiter... at times.

On the other hand, we don't call the WWBA Tournaments in Georgia... East Cobb. We do use the East Cobb Complex, and have a great relationship with them, but we actually have games in Bartow county and other counties besides Cobb county.

I fully understand why people call these events Jupiter, East Cobb and Ft Myers. It's really not that big of a deal, but I appreciate the fact that you understand where I'm coming from. Thanks!

PG, speaking of not calling the summer WWBA events "East Cobb" ...

How goes it with the new complex? Is it on track? If so, what year do you project it will go on line?

They have broken ground.

2013 then?