Canseco calls out McGwire

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
This includes the people who sit on ESPN (including HOF voting sports writers) and talk about how bad these guys are for the game and will never vote them in. If they felt that way, why would they not have made a bigger deal about it when it was happening? Hypocritical all the way around.

Great, great point. These media guys boast about having the "inside" information. If they knew steroids were an issue years ago, have they fed the fans just enough BS to keep us on the edge of our seat and kept us out of the real story? If they are all about the truth and "news", are they not just as guilty as Selig and MLB about trying to bury the issue?

Or is this a another "what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room" situations

Do not even try to tell me that the steroid issue was so well buried that the clubhouse reporters had no clue who was involved.

Have all those media guys we've trusted to keep us fans in sync with our favorite teams actully been laughing in our face at our ignorance.

"What happens in the locker room, stays in the locker room." is one of the great parenting dilemnas.

How do we teach our kids where the line is between not being a rat and speaking out when it has to be done? There isn't a well defined line that lets one know and the tendency is to stay on the "don't be a rat side" even when morally indefensible. There has to be support for one's fellows but too often "What happens..." and similar statements are a defense for bigotry.

Canseco is what he is. A cheater, a bad teammate, a scumbag can all be used to describe him. But what he didn't do was play all of us as fools and idiots like the rest of the cheaters, bad teammates and scumbags.

Everyone of these users, Bonds, McGwire, Sheffield, Clemons, Pettite, Sosa, Palmeiro, Arod, et al. all lied and lied and lied and thought we would or should eventually believe them. How dare we the idiot public question their great accomplishments and status. It was an insult to listen that bs every time someone was exposed. The lame excuses that were ridiculous to say out loud, let alone believe.

So that's why I actually respect Canseco more than the rest of them. He stopped insulting my intelligence. Maybe he protected some people, maybe he didn't, but at least we got some honesty for a change.

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Steroids were not affecting the sacred record book in Football, it became a medical issue that not many really cared to read about.

Without looking them up start listing NFL records. Baseball is the only sport with sacred stats whose fans know the numbers and who achieved them.

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How dare we the idiot public question their great accomplishments and status.

I think more people got excited than insulted. Look at the excitement of McGwire versus Sosa both breaking Maris' record. It was bombs away. Prior to the 1994 strike seventeen players hit 50+ homers. Post 1994 it's been done twenty-three times. Logic dictates some head scratching. Fans rushed the gates to see it happen. Ticket sales were never better.

RJM, the insulting part was after it was exposed that the bombs were a result of PED's and the bombers tried tell us that THEY never cheated. Then when it was proven that THEY had taken PED it was only once when someone else spiked his milk!

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
Canseco is what he is. A cheater, a bad teammate, a scumbag can all be used to describe him. But what he didn't do was play all of us as fools and idiots like the rest of the cheaters, bad teammates and scumbags.

Everyone of these users, Bonds, McGwire, Sheffield, Clemons, Pettite, Sosa, Palmeiro, Arod, et al. all lied and lied and lied and thought we would or should eventually believe them. How dare we the idiot public question their great accomplishments and status. It was an insult to listen that bs every time someone was exposed. The lame excuses that were ridiculous to say out loud, let alone believe.

So that's why I actually respect Canseco more than the rest of them. He stopped insulting my intelligence. Maybe he protected some people, maybe he didn't, but at least we got some honesty for a change.

Come on fillsfan, Canseco lied for 10 years or more as well. The only reason he did the book was he was spurned by baseball and to make money. Those are far from noble causes. I think the book coming out may be worse than having done it in the first place, in terms of him as a person. If he was that noble, he would have just scheduled a press conference to announce that he had used steroids and he was sorry about it. Then announce, now that he has admitted his complicity, here is what else is going on - someone needs to look at it. He didn't do that. He wanted to get even and make some money out of it.

Not saying it shouldn't have been exposed, but let's be real about Canseco and his motives. Just because he told some truth's about this issue does not make him an honest man.

I believe everyone is to blame - even the fans.

Before the issue broke, McGwire had these substances sitting out in the open in his locker. A Sports Illustrated reporter asked him about it and he said they were supplements. I didn't get a sense at the time that anyone was outraged by the admission nor did anyone including the general public see anything out of the ordinary when McGwire said the Andro in his locker was like taking vitamins.

I still think the issue to a certain extent came to the public's attention/rath due to the non-likability of Barry Bonds. People liked McGwire and Sosa, they didn't like Bonds - most importantly the writers who covered him. They had to find a way to de-legitimize him and they found it. Of course, once you outed Bonds, you had to take the next step and out McGwire and Sosa et. al.

I could believe that if Bonds were someone like Cal Ripken who ironically also broke a record that stood longer than Maris' homerun record, then the issue would have been covered more like it is in the NFL nowadays. Shawn Merriman gets outed for steroids - no big deal. Serve your four games and get right back after the quarterback Shawn. I think there is enough blame to go around for everyone including the public who laps it up in one arena and despises players in another.

quote:

This includes the people who sit on ESPN (including HOF voting sports writers) and talk about how bad these guys are for the game and will never vote them in. If they felt that way, why would they not have made a bigger deal about it when it was happening? Hypocritical all the way around.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Steroid use in sports, particularly the Olympic Games, has been known and a problem since at least the 1950's.

MLB must have played dumb for over 40 years.

I agree 100%. The only ones to admit it are the ones that got caught or had their hand forced in some sort of way.

So many people seem to choose to believe that all the thousands of other players through the 90's and 00's that haven't been caught are somehow clean. Other than those that have confessed over the years, does everyone deep down, honestly, truely believe that all of the players, including our favorite players, idols, guys we worshipped, all-time greats, record holders, from the 60's to present were all clean? That none of them did amphetamines, cocaine, testosterone, steroids, HGH?

Amphetamines have been around since the 60's. Cocaine since the 70's. Steroids have been around since the 50's and were well-known and fairly widespread in gyms, amatuer sports, and professional sports by the 70's. To think baseball was somehow a beacon of morality would be extremely naive. Caminitti estimated more than 50% used PEDs, Canseco said 85% in the 90's and early 00's. The masses scoffed at that and everything else they had to say. Now it seems that every week they are continuously being validated. And most of us knew or it at least crossed our minds at the time, yet the media cheered them all on and we were right there with them - "break those records, how far can they hit it, how many can they strike out"! Like with addiction, we were all the enablers - the fans, the media, the baseball execs, the television execs. Now they are done, we don't need them anymore, so now in all our self-rightousness, we spit on them and toss them aside. The cover-up must make any politician worth his salt smile, while this public witch hunt would make the town folk of Salem proud.

We hold the past greats as gods, beyond reproach, as they continuously get on TV and self-rightously claim the moral high-ground. Maybe some of them didn't get caught up in this stuff, but most assuredly some of them did. Either way, this stuff was going on around them. From the 60's on they knew. They all knew, whether they participated in it or not. But they all feign ignorance, and they have no vested interest in stating anything to the contrary now. Why would they? Look at the scorn being heaped upon those getting caught. Besides, they wouldn't want to break the code, rat on their fraternity.

Remember the role and history of the media in sports. Up through the 70's, the media was, for the most part, the athletes friend - sometimes even dining with them, drinking with them, etc. They protected the athletes because it was in their best interest. This started to change in the 80's as technology evolved and the media grew to the where we are today. Investigative reporting, everyone trying to make a name for themselves, 24 hour news, the internet, blogs. If an athlete picks his nose in public, someone has the picture and we all see it on the internet or tv within 24 hours. Build 'em up and tear 'em down.

Very few people on this site have ever set foot on professional field or in a professional clubhouse (MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, Olympics) as a professional player or coach. As the very word professional indicates, major league sports is a business - a very big business, a dog-eat-dog, cut-throat business. For the players it is their job, their life. For us to spew what we would do or what we would have done is egotistical at best and extremely self-rightous at worst. We all would hope and even think that we would make the right decisions, but we haven't walked in their shoes now have we. We do not know the whole story behind each individual player, and the industry itself, and never will. But be assured that the story is much bigger than what we do know or are likely to find out.

This is a site about our kids. I don't want my words misconstrued. Stay away from PEDs and illegal substances. You will be tempted in life, and if you go far enough in any sport you will be tempted there as well. Don't do it. It is not worth it for your body, mind, and soul. Do not betray yorself or the game. Work hard and see what happens. Know at the end of the day that you went as far as you could, however far that is, the right way. As others here have clearly stated, athletes are not role models. Your role models should be at the dinner table every night, and teaching you at your school every day.

As a fan, player, coach, instructor, and father, I love the game of baseball as much as anyone on this site. This is certainly a stain on the game, but the game will move on eventually as it always has. I feel that a lot of the scorn shown to these guys right now may come off as moralizing, but deep down is really personal. They let us down. They betrayed us. They were a fraud. But we were right there with them - pushing, encouraging, cheering. Remember? We were the enablers. So maybe, just maybe, we might want to open our eyes and take a good look at the landscape, then perhaps we won't be so quick to judge them so harshly.

bballman,
I'm not making Canseco out to be anything more than he is. I am not arguing that he's a good guy at all. My point is that with all the cheating, lying and denying that has been thrown at us, Im glad that at least one guy, Canseco, has been proven to be telling the truth about something.

"what happens in the locker room, stays in the locker room" is great when you are talking about the personal lives of players - drinking, stupid comments, etc. (think Ball Four)

Not so applicable for gambling on baseball, or cheating in baseball.

Canseco is being used as a scapegoat by MLB execs, ESPN, and writers so they can deflect the blame from themselves. Some fell for this.

Canseco has told more truth than anyone else.

Love him or hate him, he has improved the game more than anyone. He alone exposed the biggest scandal in baseball history.

GGPTH .... Bravo, a well thought out and superbly articulated narrative about what, how, where and insight into why it (PED's) happened!!

But now that everybody knows; we the baseball public can't agree on how agregious usage was or how they should be looked upon, the players are unwilling to fess up, Leadership is unsure about what to do next, the Congressional hearings drag on, the Union continues to circle the wagons ........ What should baseball do next Mr. Commissioners?

My solution to this is simple----break the HOF into ERAS---thus the records in each era stand on their own and can be compared and debated by fans in whatever manner they want

ERA 1 ---Pre Negro Players entry to MLB
ERA 2 --- 1948 to 1970
ERA 3 --- 1971 to 1990
ERA 4 -- 1991 to 2009

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
My solution to this is simple----break the HOF into ERAS---thus the records in each era stand on their own and can be compared and debated by fans in whatever manner they want

ERA 1 ---Pre Negro Players entry to MLB
ERA 2 --- 1948 to 1970
ERA 3 --- 1971 to 1990
ERA 4 -- 1991 to 2009

I don't believe baseball needs to be broken out by eras. One thing that makes baseball great is the debates. The real fans know what happened in this era. They know some great baseball players were excluded from the game before 1947. It all makes for great discussion and debate. Where should Bonds rank among the all time great home run hitters? Where should Josh Gibson rate among the all time great home run hitters? These discussions make baseball the great pasttime it is.

I understand there will always be the PED era and it will forever taint the record book, the HOF, and our idolization of players But records, biographies, and history will always be scrutinized and looked at from different perspectives. What is important is how YOU interrupt those historical facts. From wars to presidencies, to sports, there is a collection of opinions based on data. the term "all-time best" is an arbitrary term in the eye of the beholder.

I sometimes wonder...

What would the hitting/pitching record books look if the mound was not lowered

If the ball construction remained the same throughout

If ballparks all had the same dimensions

If the closer or dh were not parts of the game

If PG was around 100 years ago

If baseball allowed blacks an equal chance from the get go

And the list goes on

All I can be sure of is that tomorrow is Friday and rest of the issues I may have to settle in my own mind and I'm sure there will be someone with a different opinion

The era approach is pretty innovative but I wonder if voters would still have problems voting for people who had been caught or admitted juicing. I think you'd just have a lot fewer inductees from that era which is what will most likely happen anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
Canseco is what he is. A cheater, a bad teammate, a scumbag can all be used to describe him. But what he didn't do was play all of us as fools and idiots like the rest of the cheaters, bad teammates and scumbags.

Everyone of these users, Bonds, McGwire, Sheffield, Clemons, Pettite, Sosa, Palmeiro, Arod, et al. all lied and lied and lied and thought we would or should eventually believe them. How dare we the idiot public question their great accomplishments and status. It was an insult to listen that bs every time someone was exposed. The lame excuses that were ridiculous to say out loud, let alone believe.

So that's why I actually respect Canseco more than the rest of them. He stopped insulting my intelligence. Maybe he protected some people, maybe he didn't, but at least we got some honesty for a change.

That was one thing I noted in Mcguire's "apology". He apologized to his family, MLB, Bud Selig.. but he forgot one group I was waiting to hear included - he never included an apology to the fans!

There would be no need to apologize to the Maris family if he didnt believe ped's helped him break Roger's record.

Like I said before - Canseco - along with the rest of the lying, cheating con artists - those who supplied the illegal drugs and those who willingly used them - belong together.

Forever.

We can put every one of these lying POS in their own seperate and very special place.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
The era approach is pretty innovative but I wonder if voters would still have problems voting for people who had been caught or admitted juicing. I think you'd just have a lot fewer inductees from that era which is what will most likely happen anyways.

Well than maybe we should just build a HALL of SHAME and rank the losers from Biggest Losers on down!-

I grew up spending my weekends in the bleachers at Yankee Stadium watching my favorite player Roger Maris- so to me, this is personal!

I found it intersting that Maris' agent gave Kudos to Mac.
Why?

Steroid use in the 60's was obvious in many players who came back from injuries that would have normally ended careers.

Some pitchers came back from injuries to have multiple career years.

One player was often joked about how he 'bulked up' in the off season.

The 70's should really be the beginning of the steroids era. It was obvious in the NFL, but baseball had many players who were suddenly rejuvenated.

The 70's was also the era where high schoolers and college players were suspected of using, but the powers that be turned a blind eye.

Even in the purist's era of cleaning up baseball, MLB was never looked at, though high schools and colleges were examined.

Steroids are valuable medical aids in healing, but abusers and cheaters should be labeled as what they are.

The systemic 'blame' is meaningless to those 'clean players' who couldn't compete with the abusers.

Canseco did baseball a service, no matter what his motives.

I am with you Quincy. Steroid use began much earlier than most will admit. We had kids in HS using steroids in the late 70's early 80's at my HS. This was a small town in the middle of no where. If we knew about them, how to get them and how to use them, it is pretty nieve(sp) to think that professional athletes didn't know about them in baseball when it was rampant in the NFL, and being used in college and HS's.

People just want to think that their heroes were clean. Some were, Some weren't. But to think that they weren't in use in baseball until the 90's is pretty silly.

The ones that made millions on this wasn't the sellers, it was the buyer's.

I'd bet on Jose every time the choice was Mark.
Lessor evil so to speak.

Not sure how accurate this is, but here is a time line copied from another site. Only goes through 2005. The two entries from 1991 involving Fay Vincent are especially interesting

1889 A French physiologist Charles Brown-Sequard markets a 'rejuvinating elixir', which is a liquid extract made from the testicles of guinea pigs and dogs. This is the first known product containing testosterone.

1935 Testosterone, is first synthesized by Butenandt and Ruzicka: who earn a Nobel Prize in chemistry for the accomplishment.
World War II It is believed that German soldiers are given testosterone to increase their performance on the battlefield.

1952 The Russian Olympic team performs extremely well at its first games in Helsinki. Accusations are made of steroid use, especially by the Soviet wrestling team.

1953 The first anabolic steroid, '19-nortestosterone', is synthesized: it has three to five times the muscle building effects of natural testosterone.

1954 At the world weightlifting championships in Vienna, a Soviet Union coach informs U.S. coach Dr. John Ziegler, that the Soviet team was using testosterone. On returning home, Dr. Ziegler began using testosterone with his weightlifters.

1958 Dr. Zeigler develops Dianabol and introduces it to US Olympic Weight Lifting Team.

1963 Roy Alvin serves breakfast with Dianabol to San Diego Chargers line men.

1963 -1968 The use of steroids spreads as many Olympic Track and Field Athletes prepare for 1968.

1975 The use of steroids in the Olympics banned by the International Olympic Committee.

1981 The “Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act” is passed: steroids must now be prescribed by physician, for medical use only.

1980s The black-market production and sale of steroids thrives.

1984 The first reported case of a bodybuilder contracting aids after sharing a needle for steroid use.

1988 Congress amends the “Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act” (a.k.a. Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988): setting criminal penalties for non-authorized distribution (black-market trafficking) of steroids.

1988 Ben Johnson, the Canadian sprinter who won the 100-meter race in the Summer Olympics, has his gold medal taken away when the steroid "stanozolol" was found in his urine.

1990 The “Anabolic Steroid Control Act” is passed: unauthorized distribution, possession and use of Anabolic Steroids without a prescription, is a Federal Offense in the United States punishable by up to one year in prison and/or up to $1,000 fine. Anabolic steroids become a Schedule III Controlled Substance.

1991 Fay Vincent attempts to ban Steve Howe from Major League Baseball for failing his seventh drug test. The Player’s Union appeals and overturns the Commissioner's decision.

1991 Fay Vincent resigns due to pressure from baseball owners and the Player's Union, which resulted from his tough stance on drug/steroid abuse.

1990s There are whispers of steroid use in professional sports.

2004 The “Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004” is passed: the definition of an Anabolic Steroid is expanded to include some precursors. The penalty is doubled for manufacturing, distributing or possessing with intent to distribute an anabolic steroid within 1,000 feet of a sports facility.

March 2005 There are Congressional hearings on steroids. Major League players, including Rafael Palmiero, deny use of steroids. Sammy Sosa refuses to speak English.

August 2005 Rafael Palmiero is suspended for 10 days after he fails a drug test where steroids were detected.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

1963 -1968 The use of steroids spreads as many Olympic Track and Field Athletes prepare for 1968.

In the 1968 Olympics, Bob Beamon jumped 29'2" in the long jump, an incredible 21 inch improvement over the previous world record. This record would not be broken until 1991.

I for one believe the steroid encroachment in baseball was more subtle until the explosion 1990's. Steroids were originally thought more beneficial in "strength" or timed event sports such as weight lifting, track and field, swimming etc. I know for a fact until at least the early 1970's baseball players at every level were highly discouraged from lifting weights. So many people seem to think that steroids are something you just take like your daily aspirin and you turn into superman. You have to work out heavily with weights to fully get the gains from steroids or else you look like a water bloated hippo.
One thing that would give away heavy use before the 1990's would be the power stats and except for a few like Canseco they did not take off until 1993 or 1994.
Two of the earliest players to bulk up and one especially that had his best years in his middle thirties were Brian Downing and Lance Parrish. I am not accusing either of these guys but they were two of the first guys who led a muscles on baseball players revolution that steroid guys of the 90's may have carried much farther.