Can't get past the attitude

First of all it's not always the players fault for the thrown helmet and cuss words. I blame coaches for allowing it to go on in previous years.

Then they see the MLB players do it on TV, you know we've all seen them hit the wall, kick the water cooler, throw the helmet etc. and the TV likes to show it several times to make sure everybody gets to see it happen at least twice.

Now having said that, my players and the parents sign a contract with me and in the contract I have rules which are very simple and easy to abide by, for example no profanity and no throwing of helmets and bats along with about 8 other similar rules. You know I've never had to kick a player off of the team for violating my rules. Yes every now and then a cuss word may slip, but very very few. I teach my guys to play with class and you know I've had people come up to me in other States and say Coach your team is one of the most well manered we've ever seen. That makes me feel good. So not only have I taught these guys how to play and win baseball, I've taught them how to play and win at life as well.

CV

I didn't allow throwing gear or profanity on my teams. It never happened more than once by any player, and I can only think of twice it happened at all. They were good kids, they just needed to grow up and I helped them do it. So I guess that makes it hard to answer from the coaching perspective.

From a fan's perspective, I don't like seeing it. It gives me a poor impression of the player, and if the coach allows it a poor impression of him.

Like cvsting, my players have a team handbook that outlines our expectations and they are held accountable. Every player in our program knows that if they throw a helmet or bat, they are immediately benched...no questions asked. We expect our players to carry themselves with class and to represent themselves, their families, their program, and their town with pride.
Coaches can put a stop to it...if they want to. Benching worked wonders for us, and it has happened only a couple of times total. Kids will push the line if they think they can, but a strong coach who walks his talk can get a great message across and make a difference.

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Originally posted by Coach Knight:
Coaches can put a stop to it...if they want to. Benching worked wonders for us, and it has happened only a couple of times total.

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You are right, Coach......isn't it amazing how some bench time can influence behaviors and attitudes?

Coaches hold the ultimate key...the lineup card. Some coaches allow this sort of behavior to go on all the time. Putting winning/talent before anything else, and saying oh, he just wants to win so bad, or he has a "firey spirit". Bull. Throw the equipment, talk like a sailor, and get benched pure and simple. I could care less how good they are, if you look like a slob, you will play like a slob. Have you ever noticed that the majority of players who go on to D1 or get drafted, look like ballplayers, act like ballplayers, and perform like ballplayers. Nothing bothers me more than walking off the field, or walking out to your position. Hustle takes absolutely no talent, everyone can do it, I expect nothing less.

First of all, it is directly the Coach's fault if any kid misbehaves or shows and "attitude." Secondly, kids want discipline. Often, kids will seek out boundaries waiting for someone to show exactly what is acceptable and what is not. Attitude can make a player good if it is an over abundance of confidence and so, that player needs to be reigned in some. However, when attitude is found in the extreme and it hurts the team then, it has to not only be reigned in, sometimes, it has to be eliminated. JMHO!

Players do not wake up one day and throw helmets curse or loaf on the field. They will do what you let them get away with. Every kid on the team has the same rules. As a coach rules are not selective and situational. It is all the time. I once took a player out of a playoff game because after poppong up he threw his bat and walked half jogged down the line. It was a no brainer.

Yes, the coaches set the expectations and can easily control the behavior.

My eldest son was fortunate to have an exceptional club coach when he was 13 ... ex-Marine, fabulous technical knowledge of the game, loved to teach the game, loved the boys, and had rock-hard discipline. The shirt was always tucked in, the cap on straight, shoes clean, you sprinted on and off the field, and you never ever demanded playing time ... or you sat the bench.

One game a kid demanded to play instead of another kid ... on the field during a game ... coach told him to keep his mouth shut, sit on the bench like he was told, and someday he'd play when he earned it.

Another game, we're on defense, runners on 2B & 3B. Coach intentionally puts the batter on 1B ... as the batter jogs down the 1B line, he turns and calls our coach a P**sy. You could almost see our coach peel himself out of his own skin ... he calls a time out, walks over to the kid, calls the opposing coach over, and asked the kid to repeat what he said. Kid says "I called you a P**sy". This is a 13-yearold kid. Fortunately, the opposing coach graps the kid by the back of the shirt, hauls him into the dugout, tells him to grab his gear and go home.

It's learned behavior. I've seen players pick up very quickly exactly what is and is not "appropriate" behavior in a given situation. And you're right - what is consider "appropriate" is generally a more genteel form of behavior at the younger age levels than what you see in the pros. But I don't think any of it matters much. The exact same player will -- or will not -- throw his helmet in the dugout depending on the unwritten "rules" of that situation. So what? Whether or not you put the kid down may have more to do with what was considered "normal" on his last team than anything to do with the kid himself. The pro's generally do OK, even though they say bad words and a lot of them throw their helmets in the dugout after a bad at-bat. So what? All that means is that those are the "rules" of that situation. It's got almost nothing to do with the character of the individuals involved.

I don't think an occasional under-your-breath curse or slapping the bat with your hand after a strikeout is anything other than an expression of normal, momentary frustration. But that's a lot different than throwing a helmet/bat across the dugout, kicking a ball bucket, dumping the water cooler, cursing like you're possessed, etc., that is usually a pattern of behavior with that individual, not a response to the environment. I think how you deal with failure does tell a lot about character makeup ... probably more so than how you deal with success ... and baseball is a game of failure. Many of the kids I've seen that can't handle failure well don't play baseball anymore. And I do believe that players that handle failure productively make better ball players, because they aren't afraid to fail, so they can more easily stay focused on what they need to do to succeed.

Most of the kids I've seen aren't playing baseball anymore, period. That pyramid gets pointier and pointier every year. Some of ones who've stuck have been the more emotional ones who do care a lot about the game, and work harder at it because of that emotional investment. Some of the ones who don't play anymore never said boo to anyone, because they actually didn't care all that much, and eventually lost interest. But there's all types and it's a mistake to overgeneralize.

Interesting thread. I don't care for sloopy players and I can't stand players who dog it. A player swearing or tossing a bat does not bother me unless he does it quite often. I played with some great teamates who swore often and tossed things around, but they were not lazy and/or sloppy. I only played with one guy who I never heard swear, but he would smash the garbage can with his bat once in a while.
On the other hand, I can't stand yes sir/no sir types who run on and off the field at mach one either.
If I saw a kid who swore all the time, tossed his bat all the time, was sloppy all the time and did not hustle all the time, I would only watch him once and there would be no report turned in.

Thanks for addressing the thread BBScout. This thread was not about whos fault it is or who is to be blamed for it. It was supposed to be about our observations and how they can dictate how we actually see the kid as a player based on his poor or good attitude. I also as a coach take full responsibility for my players actions. I would never allow this type of behavior. Baseball scout makes a great observation when he says he cant stand the yes sir no sir type that runs on the field at mach 1. Its good to hear other peoples opinions. My point was even if a kid is extremely talented it can be overshadowed by a poor attitude. Instead of seeing and focusing on his abilties he can put the focus on his negatives by having a bad attitude.

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Originally posted by bbscout:
On the other hand, I can't stand yes sir/no sir types who run on and off the field at mach one either.

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Wow.

I guess you couldn't stand any of the players at Texas A&M, for instance. Coach Johnson's players sprint on & off the field. And he insists they act like gentlemen. Some scouts must not mind, given how many of his players have been drafted over the past several years.

If you truly mean what you typed, it speaks volumes about you. At least to me.

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Originally posted by Texan:

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Originally posted by bbscout:
On the other hand, I can't stand yes sir/no sir types who run on and off the field at mach one either.

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Wow.

I guess you couldn't stand any of the players at Texas A&M, for instance. Coach Johnson's players sprint on & off the field. And he insists they act like gentlemen. Some scouts must not mind, given how many of his players have been drafted over the past several years.

If you truly mean what you typed, it speaks volumes about you. At least to me.

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Actually Texan, I liked the way Willie Mays jogged on and of the field. I like kids who call their coach.....coach and I like kids who call their Mgr. skip or by his first name.If you call a Mgr. in pro ball sir, he will laugh at you.

Your post tells me a lot about you too.

bbscout, could you elaborate on that a little more?(not liking the yes sir/no sir , mach 1 guys) Thanks.

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If you call a Mgr. in pro ball sir, he will laugh at you.

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..ain't that enough?

Geez Mr. BBScout...I have the greatest respect for your posts on this board, but you must not have much contact with those southern boys, ALL the good ones say "sir" and sprint on and off the field! Southerners look at it as a sign of respect as far as "sir" goes, and running on and off the field is looked at as respect for the game. Those southern boys do cuss though...just not in front of Mom.

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Originally posted by SoutherNo1:
bbscout, could you elaborate on that a little more?(not liking the yes sir/no sir , mach 1 guys) Thanks.

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SoutherNo1, In pro ball you call the Mgr. either skip or by his first name. You do not call him coach or sir.

In amatuer ball I like to see a kid call his coach............COACH. I don't like phoney hustle, and that is what running on and off at "MACH 1" is. You run out to your position at a good pace, not at mach 1.

BBScout doing what a coach requires is not phony hustle. Alot of college and HS programs around here require that players sprint on and off the field. Yes Coach, No Coach that is fine with me. Yes sir, No sir that is the same thing to me. I can see where a Pro Manager would not want to be called sir by a player. But I think its a little different in HS at least around here. I think its just a matter of preference. When I got my first HS job as an assistant the Head Coach had a rule that when a batter struck out he was to sprint back to the dug out. He said walking back was a sign of pouting about it. I took him to the side and I said I hated that rule. As a player I did not want to give the impression that I was running away. I thought players should just walk calmly back to the dug out and keep their head up and be ready for the next chance. We did not see eye to eye on that but when I became the Head Coach I changed it.

This is one of the reasons I love that my son plays baseball. It goes beyond teaching young men a game and actually attempts to build the character of the man he will be.

Think about it, we are talking about the merits of how a young man runs on and off the field, saying Yes Sir as opposed to Yes Coach and how the player handles himself in adverse times.

I don’t watch the NBA anymore and I’m watching less and less of the NFL because of what I view as outlandish character issues by the players that are ultimately permitted by the coach. I watch any and all baseball – they could put tee-ball on TV and I would watch every inning.

Arguing about the nuances of the right attitude/character it is right. Keep baseball above the other sports. You coaches are building men and I for one applaud your efforts!!!

I guess the conflicting answers validate that it's more in the eye of the beholder - and what he interprets the action to be - than anything else. What I will say is this: a "correct" attitude - and "correct" means whatever the coach du jour thinks it does - will put a thumb on the scales. But not a very heavy one, in my opinion. Outside of true headcases, most coaches will take the player with more talent, ability, and "upside" over the lesser player who dresses, walks and talks the way the coach prefers.

Or else he ain't gonna be the coach for long....

Bob has done an outstanding job compiling many articles on this subject. This link takes you to what several HS & College coaches have to say about attitude. A good read for parents, too.
Making the Team , Parts 2-4; Common Pitfalls of HS Player; Baseballs 10 Commandments; & Dugout Diary to mention a few.

http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/articles_part1.htm

I may get pounded for this but here goes. I tend to agree with BBscout on the false hustle aspect. Sprinting at full speed to your position says "Look at me, I'm better than my teammates". However, if a coach has taught ALL of his players to sprint to their
positions I think it shows team unity and actually sends a message to the other team that
they are there for a purpose which is to come out on top at the end of the game.

I, for one, love to see players in unison leaving the dugout at the same time and "hustle" to their positions. I cannot handle players straggling out, some running,
some jogging, some walking, some half-jog half-walk and stop at he foul line and walk
the rest of the way to their positions while adjusting the batting gloves in the back pockets so the fingers hang out at precisely 5 1/2". (By the way, how did this batting glove thing get started in the first place? another topic I guess).

Let me pose this question, say a coach has no set procedure for taking the field and
lets the players do whatever they want. Should a boy who has been taught to "hustle" to
his position then tone it down so that he looks like the rest of his teammates and basically "lolligag" on out? To show team unity

Whose fault is it ???

Doesn't it all begin at home and then get reinforced by the coaches/teachers outside the home ?

Let me give you an example of how it can go--this is a true event

In our tournament last year the batter strikes out and tosses his helmet thereby getting an ejection as he muttered a few choice words as well--next the bat goes flying over the top of the dugout where there is a 6 ft screen as well-- the bat lands and bounces behind the dugout where three ladies, one in her 80's were sitting and watching--if the bat bounces left instead of right it hits them--- back at the hotel I meet the coach and he is telling me the kid is cool for the next game because ejection rule states there is no suspension after ejection--I tell him ever so politely that if the kid suits up he can take the entire team home--there is no way that kid plays another game in my tournament---

Obviously he has been getting away with this in previous instances-- what is this coach teaching the kid

Tell you what--had I done that as a kid my dad would broken both my legs and I would have been thankful he did not kill me--

On our travel team we have our own rules and every kid knows them--break them and you leave--

TR----

BBScout, I was not addressing professional baseball and had no idea that you were.

For HS & college, I like to see players run on and off the field. There are many HS & college programs where the coach mandates sprinting on & off the field.

And for HS & college players, I always deem the use of sirs and mams to be a sign of a decent upbringing and a polite and mature young man.

I guess things are different on the left coast.

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I don't like phoney hustle, and that is what running on and off at "MACH 1" is. You run out to your position at a good pace, not at mach 1.

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I agree.

I don't like phoney yes, sir and no, sir, either.

It makes those in control FEEL good, though....

I appreciate genuine respect relative to the circumstances, and when I give it, I get it.

My son showed up for the first day of pro baseball and met the mgr. My son said "excuse me coach", well he got drilled for it. Got the don't call me coach, don't call me sir. Call me skip or call me Woody. Unless you like to run. My son answered yes, sir. They all had a good laugh.

I also agree about false hustle. Good post bbscout.

Amen, TR!

Ah, the limits of the written word when talking about baseball....

When bbscout was describing the mach 1 yessir player, an image of a few guys I've watched along the way immediately sprang up in my mind. And they were the all-sizzle-no-steak-Eddie-Haskell guys, so I agreed.

As we all know, a lot of leeway will be given to the player who can do the job on the field. If he is a Player, he's hustling; if he's marginal, he's calling undue attention to himself. The components are colored by your perception of the whole.

Eric: "... yes, sir."

Woody: "I told you Not to call me Sir. Now take a lap around.......Bradenton."

bbscout- I assume the "skip" refers to "skipper" (captain, etc). Also assume the manager doesn't want to be called coach because he isn't one! But I never knew there was a distinction- the things you learn on this site!
I know my son would probably address the mgr as sir though, until he was invited to use first names. Just a matter of habit.

There may be some geographical distinctions- when we first moved to Tx from the East (Pa), I had to get used to all the "Mams and Sirs". After awhile it becomes second nature!

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And they were the all-sizzle-no-steak-Eddie-Haskell guys....

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Same guy in my mind, Orlando.............

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We are real good folks!!

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Agreed, baseballmom, but there are a few Eddie Haskell's down there, too.

A little timid about asking why the managers are called "Woody", though..................

Just some personal opinions.

Some players look good sprinting on and off the field, others look like it's fake. Don't ask me why. I do prefer the normal professional pace, but see nothing wrong with the other. Afterall, maybe his coach or Dad has told him to do things that way.

I don't like to see hitters run like crazy on obvious foul balls.

I don't like to see hitters dog it down the line on ground balls. This happens way to much.

I hate to see hitters jog to 1B on pop ups and fly balls.

I love to see hitters going into 2B when the fly ball is being caught.

I love to see hitters rounding 1B correctly on basehits.

I don't like players calling me Mr. Ford, but I do appreciate the respect they show. Yes sir and no sir, do not bother me, but neither does Jerry or anything else that doesn't contain a lack of respect. It's always bothered me when a young player calls me by only my last name, even though I guess it is popular to do so now days.

I always watch to see how players talk and respect others, more than myself. That is what shows me what I want to see.

I agree with BBScout when it comes to anything fake. I want to see the real person because sooner or later that's what's going to surface.

I can live with most anything that shows the real person. My suggestion is to always be yourself. Afterall, people might just like the real you much better than the one you're trying to be. And you aren't likely to fool a good scout... They've seen just about every type! They will figure out what's real and what is fake.

I could go on forever, but I haven't got the time right now.

Coach May, I apologize if I got off of the subject earlier and went into a direction that you didn't want this thread to go in.

Attitude? If you tell me a kid throws a fit. If he is throwing his bat, helmet, etc. If you are telling me that he is causing a scene in any fashion, then this is only half of the story. What you are also saying is that this person, instead of being a good teammate and getting back into that dugout to root for thier teammates is drawing attention to himself. What he is doing is saying through action or word, "HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT ME. I'M MORE IMPORTANT THAT MY TEAMMATE HITTING. I'M MORE IMPORTANT IN THIS MOMENT THAT WINNING THIS GAME. GOSH, I'M UPSET. MOM AND DAD, TAKE A LOOK. I'M UPSET. I'M BETTER THAN THAT PITCHER. I'M BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE BECAUSE YOU ALL SHOULD RECOGNIZE THAT I MESSED UP AND I JUST DON'T DO THAT. ..." As a coach, I can't get past this attitude at all. I won't have it no matter who it is.

The kid sounds human to me...but after he calms down he should be instructed on how to deal with frustration in a competitve environment.

Had this problem with some of my players and taught them how to dela with frustration. Takes some patience, and they may back slide but it isn't all bad, it shows how much they want to do well.

Visualization and refocusing the intensity is the way to deal with it.

PGStaff & PiC:

One size does not fit all.

Coach I totally agree with you. Any coach who does put up with this is not a coach at all.