Can't score from third, unbelievable!

yes, bases loaded no one out, middle of line up swing away. Sounds like another case of over coaching.

A couple of thoughts and questions:

1) What inning did this happen? 2nd or 7th? In the 2nd I'd go for runs in the 7th playing for a tie makes more sense especially if you think you have better and deeper pitching.
2) Coach might have felt same frustration about getting runs in so he put a play on rather than wait it out.
3) Practicing some situation hitting to shorten up swings and hit a few ground balls to 2nd might be in order.
4) Why is the 4 batter a better hitter than the 3 batter? More contact, higher average, more power? If 3 batter struggles with contact but has good power whereas 4 batter makes more contact and has somewhat equal power I agree. Otherwise it's a coin flip.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
A couple of thoughts and questions:

1) What inning did this happen? 2nd or 7th? In the 2nd I'd go for runs in the 7th playing for a tie makes more sense especially if you think you have better and deeper pitching.

Really, you have your best 2 hitters up and you play for a tie with no outs bases loaded?

2) Coach might have felt same frustration about getting runs in so he put a play on rather than wait it out.

3 & 4 hitters aren't there to bunt, I can maybe see trying it once because of the element of surprise, but twice?

3) Practicing some situation hitting to shorten up swings and hit a few ground balls to 2nd might be in order.

Like I said earlier, these are your 2 best hitters, swing away.

4) Why is the 4 batter a better hitter than the 3 batter? More contact, higher average, more power? If 3 batter struggles with contact but has good power whereas 4 batter makes more contact and has somewhat equal power I agree. Otherwise it's a coin flip.

These 2 are your RBI guys, its a coin flip.

If the coach can't trust that his #3 and #4 batters can drive in some runs by swinging away with the bases loaded and nobody out, then why are they batting in those positions in the first place? I often find that the best bunters on a team are the first, second and bottom of the lineup guys while the middle of the order guys are not good bunters because they are often the best hitters, slower, or power hitters. I've seen too many coaches try to force something to happen when the right guy is not in place to carry the play out.

I don't like to second guess especially when I am not there to actually get a feel for things. And when I really dont know the players. But having said that with the bases loaded and no outs and down by one I dont see the reason for a squeeze here. Your going to score the run in so many ways. Even if you hit into a dbl play your going to tie up the game have your 4 hitter at the plate and the lead run at 3rd.

As far as having your best hitter in the 4 hole instead of the 3 hole thats something that a lot of coaches at this level move around. I have had my best hitter in the 5 hole before. The 5 hole was getting the most rbi opportunities so I put him there. Basic logic says put your best hitter in the 3 hole. Best hitter with power in the 4 hole. But sometimes basic baseball logic doesnt jive with whats going on with the entire team especially at the hs level. If that makes any sense.

I dont like this move = squeeze with the bases loaded and no outs. Why? The pressure is all of them. Why switch that to your team? You got your middle up with the bases loaded and no outs. Its not time to tie the game up. Its time to drop the hammer on them and put it away. JMO

To add on to Coach May, the other more detremental outcome is some form of a double or triple play caused by a popped up bunt attempt, or a missed bunt attempt. With bases loaded, if everyone takes off running it looks more like a NASCAR race and there are just too many things that can go wrong. Now the smart move is to have R1 and R2 hold their ground, but who has kids smart enough to figure that out?

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
A couple of thoughts and questions:

1) What inning did this happen? 2nd or 7th? In the 2nd I'd go for runs in the 7th playing for a tie makes more sense especially if you think you have better and deeper pitching.
2) Coach might have felt same frustration about getting runs in so he put a play on rather than wait it out.
3) Practicing some situation hitting to shorten up swings and hit a few ground balls to 2nd might be in order.
4) Why is the 4 batter a better hitter than the 3 batter? More contact, higher average, more power? If 3 batter struggles with contact but has good power whereas 4 batter makes more contact and has somewhat equal power I agree. Otherwise it's a coin flip.

It happened in the 5th inning of a 7 inning game. The #4 batter is all around a better offensive player- a year older, 6 inches taller, 50 pounds heavier, better average, higher slugging percentage, higher on base percentage, more RBI's, more stolen bases, runs faster, more aggressive, etc. The coach knows that the #4 batter is a lot better than the #3 batter. I am just left confused.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I don't like to second guess especially when I am not there to actually get a feel for things. And when I really dont know the players. But having said that with the bases loaded and no outs and down by one I dont see the reason for a squeeze here. Your going to score the run in so many ways. Even if you hit into a dbl play your going to tie up the game have your 4 hitter at the plate and the lead run at 3rd.

As far as having your best hitter in the 4 hole instead of the 3 hole thats something that a lot of coaches at this level move around. I have had my best hitter in the 5 hole before. The 5 hole was getting the most rbi opportunities so I put him there. Basic logic says put your best hitter in the 3 hole. Best hitter with power in the 4 hole. But sometimes basic baseball logic doesnt jive with whats going on with the entire team especially at the hs level. If that makes any sense.

I dont like this move = squeeze with the bases loaded and no outs. Why? The pressure is all of them. Why switch that to your team? You got your middle up with the bases loaded and no outs. Its not time to tie the game up. Its time to drop the hammer on them and put it away. JMO

One thing I failed to mention is that the #4 hitter has led off an inning more times than he has not. This means that the #3 hitter is making the third out the majority of the time of his at-bats. The #4 hitter, gets on base the majority of the time, but also does so with no one on base as he is leading off an inning as the first hitter. I do give credit that the #3 hitter is good at putting the ball into play, he just lacks power.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I do give credit that the #3 hitter is good at putting the ball into play, he just lacks power.

Ahhh, another piece of the puzzle...
This, of course, doesn't explain why he is in the 3 hole to begin with but does help explain why the coach considered the squeeze in this situation.
If your "good contact" #3 gets that bunt down, you have a tie game with two runners in scoring position with your best hitter up and less than 2 outs. If #3 doesn't squeeze and instead hits into a routine double play (or even worse, a home to first dp), you have two outs and, now a long fly ball by #4 results in nothin'.

A lot, too,depends on what type of "struggling" the pitcher is going through. If he is struggling out of the zone, you definintely don't squeeze. But, if he is struggling in a manner where he has to try to throw FB in the zone (and he has shown the ability to do so) to avoid walking in the tying run, then I could see thinking about the squeeze with the type of hitter you describe as your #3.
Sounds like your #3 is more like a typical #2 or #7, which makes this much more feasible.

Can't explain the second attempt but remember, it was the batter missing the sign that resulted in the failure. Also, this is exactly the same as what you suggested that you would have done...

quote:

If it was me, I would have had the #4 batter in the correct #3 batting spot and then had the hitter try to hit a sacrafice fly. If he would have failed at his job, then I would maybe attempt a suicide squeeze with one out.

By the way, I personally don't agree with your philosophy that you would, with bases loaded, no out, have your best hitter try to hit a sac fly. He's your best hitter. Let him mash. JMO.

Sorry, I probably should have just let you vent

I think cabbagedad makes some excellent points. Plus was the score 1 - 0 or 9 - 8? This also factors into the decision making process. If it's a very low scoring game I'm more inclined to drop a squeeze down myself because this may be the only opportunity you get the whole game to get that one run to at least tie. If it's a high scoring game then I'm letting them swing away becuase there have been opportunities and they have been capitalized on.

As for the second squeeze I have no idea and not really sure why you would. Only thing I have is desperate times call for desperate measures. I can't say I've ever been that desperate but never know.

One thing about coaching is you have a ton of factors to think about it a short period of time. This is one reason why we tend to overthink things. I know I've done it to where I totally put too much thought into a situation instead of just letting the kids play. It happens.

One thing about "second" guessing a coach is you always see the outcome but never see how much thought was put into it. No coach ever makes a decision with the thought process that it will end up being a failure. When a coach puts something on and it fails it's not because he knew it would happen but sometimes it does happen because we out thought ourselves.

It's a tough situation to make decisions when a team is struggling. You don't want to make decisions that just add to the pressure already there and you want to make decisions that get your team through the hard times.

Myself personally I'm going to have my best hitting the three spot and the kid who's hitting three maybe in the four if he's truly a good contact hitter. If it's a 1 - 0 game in the 5th or 6th then I'm probably laying the squeeze down. 7th inning there's no doubt I'm squeezing here but early in the game or a high scoring game then I'm turning the bats loose and letting them hit.

I'm not saying the coach is right and you're wrong but just trying to throw some ideas out there to bounce around. Overall I'm probably agreeing with you and if I was in your shoes I would want to vent too.

For me a squeeze play has to have several factors as to when you try to execute it, one or more of these-

1. Close game, down by one run or tied & one out
2. Pitcher throwing exceptionally well- hard to hit
3. Bottom of the order (bad hitters) and one out
4. Defense playing exceptionally deep
5. Pitcher in windup
6. excellent bunter at bat and quick runner at third

I guess what does it for me is that the situation at hand met really none of this criteria except it being a close game. We had strung together a hit and two walks getting to that point of bases loaded. The pitcher was thus struggling. The heart of the lineup- guys who put the ball into play are coming up. I don't really have anything against laying down a squeeze here, but to attempt it twice on the same batter and then have him strike out all the while the best hitter on the team is panting like a mad dog in the on deck circle. That's tough! How do you not play the game to where your best hitter can come up to bat in this inning?

I kept just wondering how it is that with bases loaded, no outs, # 3 batter up, all three outs are recorded with no one scoring & without any ball being put into play and no one else coming to bat???

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
For me a squeeze play has to have several factors as to when you try to execute it, one or more of these-

1. Close game, down by one run or tied & one out
2. Pitcher throwing exceptionally well- hard to hit
3. Bottom of the order (bad hitters) and one out
4. Defense playing exceptionally deep
5. Pitcher in windup
6. excellent bunter at bat and quick runner at third

I'm not sure what to make of your criteria...
#3 - usually a bad hitter is also a bad bunter. not a great candidate
#4 - defense doesn't need to be exceptionally deep. if the suicide squeeze is executed properly, the runner scores on even a mediocre bunt with the defense at standard depth.
#5 - runner can't fully go until pitcher has commited toward home with the pitch... doesn't matter wind or stretch.
#6 - runner doesn't need to be quick. again, with proper execution, the run will score on a suicide squeeze with a half-decent bunt. It just can't be a hard come-backer or die right at the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
For me a squeeze play has to have several factors as to when you try to execute it, one or more of these-

1. Close game, down by one run or tied & one out
2. Pitcher throwing exceptionally well- hard to hit
3. Bottom of the order (bad hitters) and one out
4. Defense playing exceptionally deep
5. Pitcher in windup
6. excellent bunter at bat and quick runner at third

I'm not sure what to make of your criteria...
#3 - usually a bad hitter is also a bad bunter. not a great candidate
#4 - defense doesn't need to be exceptionally deep. if the suicide squeeze is executed properly, the runner scores on even a mediocre bunt with the defense at standard depth.
#5 - runner can't fully go until pitcher has commited toward home with the pitch... doesn't matter wind or stretch.
#6 - runner doesn't need to be quick. again, with proper execution, the run will score on a suicide squeeze with a half-decent bunt. It just can't be a hard come-backer or die right at the plate.

#3- A bad hitter can still bunt- the worst hitters in professional baseball (the pitchers) are some of the best bunters.

#4- With an exceptionally deep defense runners get a better advantage.

#5- Not true. With a pitcher in the windup a runner can actually steal home, I have done that several times before with pitchers who have slow windups.

#6- speed always makes the squeeze play more of an option.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
For me a squeeze play has to have several factors as to when you try to execute it, one or more of these-

1. Close game, down by one run or tied & one out
2. Pitcher throwing exceptionally well- hard to hit
3. Bottom of the order (bad hitters) and one out
4. Defense playing exceptionally deep
5. Pitcher in windup
6. excellent bunter at bat and quick runner at third

I'm not sure what to make of your criteria...
#3 - usually a bad hitter is also a bad bunter. not a great candidate
#4 - defense doesn't need to be exceptionally deep. if the suicide squeeze is executed properly, the runner scores on even a mediocre bunt with the defense at standard depth.
#5 - runner can't fully go until pitcher has commited toward home with the pitch... doesn't matter wind or stretch.
#6 - runner doesn't need to be quick. again, with proper execution, the run will score on a suicide squeeze with a half-decent bunt. It just can't be a hard come-backer or die right at the plate.

#3- A bad hitter can still bunt- the worst hitters in professional baseball (the pitchers) are some of the best bunters.

#4- With an exceptionally deep defense runners get a better advantage.

#5- Not true. With a pitcher in the windup a runner can actually steal home, I have done that several times before with pitchers who have slow windups.

#6- speed always makes the squeeze play more of an option.

#5 - It is rare that a player steals home plate, normally its because of two things, slow to home and pitcher not checking the runner. In a suicide squeeze attempt once the pitcher commits to home (stretch or windup) runner can then release

#6 - Speed is not a requirement as long as the bunt was successfully put on the ground where the catcher cannot pick up and tag the runner, even then it would be tough if executed right.

Thanks Stand,
Maybe if he hears it from someone else????

GBM,
Also...
#3 - I thought we were talking about HS age. Surely you don't think bad HS hitters are good bunters, against pitchers that throw exceptionally well, no less (another of your criteria). Definitely not the norm.

#4 - please re-read my original comment, perhaps more slowly this time. The only way defensive positioning is a factor on a properly executed suicide squeeze bunt is if they are pinching really hard. Medium, deep, exceptionally deep - doesn't matter.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Thanks Stand,
Maybe if he hears it from someone else????

GBM,
Also...
#3 - I thought we were talking about HS age. Surely you don't think bad HS hitters are good bunters, against pitchers that throw exceptionally well, no less (another of your criteria). Definitely not the norm.

#4 - please re-read my original comment, perhaps more slowly this time. The only way defensive positioning is a factor on a properly executed suicide squeeze bunt is if they are pinching really hard. Medium, deep, exceptionally deep - doesn't matter.

By the time any kid gets to HS, they should all know how to lay down a bunt. Everyone on the team should be able to lay down a sacrafice bunt. Hitting is a completely different thing though. It is much more difficult to get a base hit over laying down a bunt. That is why I said that if a bad hitter (poor average) is up, then perhaps it is a good time for a squeeze play because the easiest way to put a ball into play is with a bunt.

With the defense playing exceptionally deep, one can often times lay a perfect drag bunt down the chalk line that not only gets the run in but also goes down for a base hit. Let's take away the squeeze for a moment and just ask when would be the best time to work a bunt hit to get on base? 2 factors- 1. defense playing too deep and out of position to get to the ball quickly, and- 2. Fast batter/runner blazing to first quickly.

Besides all that, an exceptionally deep defense can't catch the mistake bunt pop-up as easy which increases the odds for executing the bunt squeeze to better perfection. We had a situation just this year where the defense was playing exceptionally deep and the squueze bunt was popped up most of the way to first base but because the first baseman was playing so deep he couldn't get to it in time to make a double play. So, an exceptionally deep infield defense does come ito play on the squeeze play in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It is much more difficult to get a base hit over laying down a bunt. That is why I said that if a bad hitter (poor average) is up, then perhaps it is a good time for a squeeze play because the easiest way to put a ball into play is with a bunt.

Yes, but if you have a bad hitter trying to squeeze against a good pitcher you have a much higher likelihood of a missed attempt or pop up bunt, both of which are VERY bad results - you just made a poor coaching decision, so maybe go easier on your kid's coach.

quote:

Let's take away the squeeze for a moment and just ask when would be the best time to work a bunt hit to get on base? 2 factors- 1. defense playing too deep and out of position to get to the ball quickly, and- 2. Fast batter/runner blazing to first quickly.

If you are going to completely change the premise of your post ("a squeeze has to have several factors...") to strengthen your argument, go for it. I'll be over in the corner beating my head against the wall.



Good night GBM.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It is much more difficult to get a base hit over laying down a bunt. That is why I said that if a bad hitter (poor average) is up, then perhaps it is a good time for a squeeze play because the easiest way to put a ball into play is with a bunt.

Yes, but if you have a bad hitter trying to squeeze against a good pitcher you have a much higher likelihood of a missed attempt or pop up bunt, both of which are VERY bad results - you just made a poor coaching decision, so maybe go easier on your kid's coach.

quote:

Let's take away the squeeze for a moment and just ask when would be the best time to work a bunt hit to get on base? 2 factors- 1. defense playing too deep and out of position to get to the ball quickly, and- 2. Fast batter/runner blazing to first quickly.

If you are going to completely change the premise of your post ("a squeeze has to have several factors...") to strengthen your argument, go for it. I'll be over in the corner beating my head against the wall.



Good night GBM.

It seems as if you are debating me just to pass the time or something. We could endlessly debate this issue but the truth of it is, and everyone should agree with my OP that it is a stupid idea to attempt a squeeze play twice with the same batter- the #3 batter, and never let the best hitter come up to bat when he clearly has the chance if coached right.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It seems as if you are debating me just to pass the time or something. We could endlessly debate this issue but the truth of it is, and everyone should agree with my OP that it is a stupid idea to attempt a squeeze play twice with the same batter- the #3 batter, and never let the best hitter come up to bat when he clearly has the chance if coached right.

Well, since I'm included in the group "everybody", please note that I don't agree with your original post, and am mildly offended by your assertion that I "should" agree.

Furthermore, while I can't know for sure why cabbagedad has continued to post in this and other threads, I suspect it is an attempt to correct your erroneous assertions.

It is further my observation that this thread has followed the customary path: GBM makes an ill-considered statement, gets called on it, makes additional ill-considered statements in an attempt to bolster his point, gets called on those, and finally tries to change the original premise.

I have some tolerance for this behavior when the point under discussion is the potential of various pitch types to cause injury (because nobody really knows). I have zero tolerance for it when the discussion revolves around whether participation in baseball is growing or shrinking, as it did in a recent thread.

And this thread was the straw that broke my patience.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It seems as if you are debating me just to pass the time or something.... everyone should agree with my OP...

You started the post venting about a coach's decision to squeeze in a certain situation. You then provided your own criteria for suicide squeeze bunting, most of which made no common baseball sense. I thought that was worth mentioning and explaining for a variety of reasons, most being for your benenfit. My mistake. It wont happen again.

We should all agree with your OP.

Sorry 3Finger,
Looks like we were typing at the same time. Sometimes, I'm too slow or too stubborn to pick up on the fact that I'm spinning my wheels.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
And this thread was the straw that broke my patience.

Me too.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It seems as if you are debating me just to pass the time or something.... everyone should agree with my OP...

You started the post venting about a coach's decision to squeeze in a certain situation. You then provided your own criteria for suicide squeeze bunting, most of which made no common baseball sense. I thought that was worth mentioning and explaining for a variety of reasons, most being for your benenfit. My mistake. It wont happen again.

We should all agree with your OP.

It isn't rocket science. Knowing when to squeeze should be a pretty simple solution. What I do know is that you don't do it with no outs, bases loaded, struggling pitcher, and your #3 batter coming to bat.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It seems as if you are debating me just to pass the time or something. We could endlessly debate this issue but the truth of it is, and everyone should agree with my OP that it is a stupid idea to attempt a squeeze play twice with the same batter- the #3 batter, and never let the best hitter come up to bat when he clearly has the chance if coached right.

Well, since I'm included in the group "everybody", please note that I don't agree with your original post, and am mildly offended by your assertion that I "should" agree.

Furthermore, while I can't know for sure why cabbagedad has continued to post in this and other threads, I suspect it is an attempt to correct your erroneous assertions.

It is further my observation that this thread has followed the customary path: GBM makes an ill-considered statement, gets called on it, makes additional ill-considered statements in an attempt to bolster his point, gets called on those, and finally tries to change the original premise.

I have some tolerance for this behavior when the point under discussion is the potential of various pitch types to cause injury (because nobody really knows). I have zero tolerance for it when the discussion revolves around whether participation in baseball is growing or shrinking, as it did in a recent thread.

And this thread was the straw that broke my patience.

Oh please. That is lame.

quote:

It isn't rocket science. Knowing when to squeeze should be a pretty simple solution. What I do know is that you don't do it with no outs, bases loaded, struggling pitcher, and your #3 batter coming to bat.

GBM,
Sometimes it seems the more you post, the more questions your comments raise.
Knowing when to squeeze isn't "pretty simple."
Absent perfect execution, the squeeze is a tool best used when it is completely unexpected. With perfect execution, it is almost unstoppable in scoring a run.
The squeeze can be a valuable tool in the situation you describe, especially when the #3 coming to bat has been so unsuccessful during the course of the season, as your earlier post describes.
Finally, the use of the squeeze becomes even more relevant when the team is not scoring with runners at 3B, as you begin this thread, in a 2-1 game with only 2 more AB's for the team.
Thinking baseball above LL is played through a formula might be a reflection of your seemingly being so influenced by the MLB game on TV or the Milb games you watch in the Pioneer league.
To the contrary, the college game and HS level game can be very different when players can execute at a very high level.
CSU Fullerton under George Horton would bunt any player in the line up at any time. Mike Gillespie at Irvine is very, very aggressive with the use of small ball. As you are doing with this coach, message boards are filled with fans questioning some of the strategies of Gillespie even though his players execute so well and the strategy works far more often than not.
From what you are posting, the #3 didn't get his job done. On the pitch that was high, he still needs to get the bat on the ball. On the second squeeze, he missed the sign, according to you.
Both are execution issues if this happened as you describe.
From your information, the second squeeze was called with the bases loaded and a 2-0 count, which means the pitcher had to throw a strike, making the squeeze possibly a great call.

One of the very best and most successful college coaches I have seen was at a DIII in Texas. He won over 700 games. He would bunt his #3 guy, #4 guy, and any hitter in the line up to advance runners, score a run, or put pressure on the defense.
GBM, I sure hope you are not talking with your son, his teammates and other parents about these coaching decisions in the same 2nd guessing and demeaning way you are on this board.
There are some very good coaches who would have made the very same call, as cabbagedad and others are suggesting.
This is not a one way street as you seem to want it.
Baseball is a game of learning for players and parents as fans. Before HS and college baseball became the focus of my attention, I had never seen the game played so successfully with small ball.
Maybe you might open your thinking that there is more than what you have seen.

infielddad,

No disrespect, I do respect your answer. However, in my opinion you have to play with what the opposing team is giving you- you know- play the cards being dealt. The cards being dealt is that not only did he walk the previous two batters, he isn't showing any command with the bases loaded either. As a coach, I am playing the card that I am going to let my #3 hitter crowd the plate a little and make him try to throw strikes and see if I can generate a walk. If the pitcher can battle and throw strikes, I am going to let him swing and try to get the run in from third. My win win situation if #3 doesn't walk in a run though is to take the bat away from the #3 hitter for this at-bat and give it to the #4 batter with less than 2 outs and let him drive in the tying and perhaps go ahead run. The last thing I don't want to do in this situation is play the game out and not let the best hitter who is on deck to come to bat. That is exactly how it played out though. I don't care how one calls it, but that is bad coaching and I will tell my son and others all day long why it was a poor coaching decision.

GBM,
I don't really see a need to post any further. You just add/change facts as 3FG and cabbagedad both already commented. Now we learn the previous 2 hitters had walked, which clearly adds a new dimension.
But honestly, the demeaning comments to 3FG and cabbagedad, combined with this one below is a good place to end:

"I don't care how one calls it, but that is bad coaching and I will tell my son and others all day long why it was a poor coaching decision."

To me, reading those words,well, its kinda sad, maybe more than kinda.
You have a mindset and want everyone to know and hear it and not disagree with it. It really does make me sad to read that your disagreement about a coaching decision would go beyond that and seemingly become a vendetta to discredit a coach, and apparently the hitter he selected to be #3 in the order.

I think the squeeze is the most under-rated play perhaps in baseball. I will do it anytime I am willing to trade an out for a run.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I don't care how one calls it, but that is bad coaching and I will tell my son and others all day long why it was a poor coaching decision.

I am not a coach so I didn't comment on this topic.

However, I have to say that the above statement is what you would call lame.

Gosh, I thought it was just me...LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
GBM,
I don't really see a need to post any further. You just add/change facts as 3FG and cabbagedad both already commented. Now we learn the previous 2 hitters had walked, which clearly adds a new dimension.
But honestly, the demeaning comments to 3FG and cabbagedad, combined with this one below is a good place to end:

"I don't care how one calls it, but that is bad coaching and I will tell my son and others all day long why it was a poor coaching decision."

To me, reading those words,well, its kinda sad, maybe more than kinda.
You have a mindset and want everyone to know and hear it and not disagree with it. It really does make me sad to read that your disagreement about a coaching decision would go beyond that and seemingly become a vendetta to discredit a coach, and apparently the hitter he selected to be #3 in the order.

Perhaps you failed to read one of my previous posts from the last page. I stated that a base hit and two walks got us to the point of bases loaded. Don't discredit what i already mentioned that you missed. I was providing all the information and it isn't my fault if others fail to read all of the posts and jump to conclusions.

The problem I have is the coach doesn't think it is or was his fault. I disagree- bad coaching and I will teach my son and others all day long what we can learn from that situation.

GBM,
Why is it that people "miss" what you originally said? This happens often, topic after topic after topic, things change, frequently.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Perhaps you failed to read one of my previous posts from the last page.

GBM,
Perhaps you failed to listen to the viewpoints of those who have FAR more experience, qualifications and insight in these matters than you and I will ever have. Do you have any idea how many very valid points (ignore mine for the moment) you have completely ignored in this thread and countless others you have participated in?

Perhaps you failed to read and listen to the examples that infieddad gave of SEVERAL very successful coaches at the college level that would not have a problem bunting in this situation.

Perhaps it is possible that, as long as you've been around here, you somehow missed what a terrible thing it can be to badmouth the coaching decisions of those your kids are playing for and to "tell my son and others all day long".

It is such a waste that you have found this great resource of information, yet refuse to open your ears and eyes enough to benefit from it.

I know you will come back and argue these points as well. Honestly, I just feel bad for your kid.

This is how it happens, dads who often feel their player is better than everyone else starts becoming an armchair coach/manager, word gets out, passes from one to the next, gts back to the coach, the college recruiter calls a coach, the coach tells the guy, the kid is good, nice, stay away from dad (or mom).

Sad, but it happens, often.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The problem I have is the coach doesn't think it is or was his fault. I disagree- bad coaching and I will teach my son and others all day long what we can learn from that situation.

It wasn't the coaches fault - it was the fault of the kid who failed to get the bunt down and the same kid who missed the sign. The coach didn't put the play on thinking it wasn't going to work. He believed it would work and it very well could have. If the kid had got the bunt down then we aren't having this conversation.

GBM - no offense but you are wrong here and this coming from a guy who would let them swing the bat. The squeeze is not a bad call in this situation. But you're really wrong by criticizing the coach to your son and his buddies on the team. You're not going to help them succeed by putting those doubts in their heads.

I guess I am wondering why GBM isn't coaching this or any other team. Where does your son fit into this scenario?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Why is it that people "miss" what you originally said? This happens often, topic after topic after topic, things change, frequently.

Perhaps it's because they don't read through all the posts and jumpt to unwarranted conclusions. It's as clear as the noonday sun that I said previously that the pitcher had just gave up a hit and walked two people to get into that situation. I can't help it if people don't actually read the situation and immediately start accusations.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Perhaps you failed to read one of my previous posts from the last page.

GBM,
Perhaps you failed to listen to the viewpoints of those who have FAR more experience, qualifications and insight in these matters than you and I will ever have. Do you have any idea how many very valid points (ignore mine for the moment) you have completely ignored in this thread and countless others you have participated in?

Perhaps you failed to read and listen to the examples that infieddad gave of SEVERAL very successful coaches at the college level that would not have a problem bunting in this situation.

Perhaps it is possible that, as long as you've been around here, you somehow missed what a terrible thing it can be to badmouth the coaching decisions of those your kids are playing for and to "tell my son and others all day long".

It is such a waste that you have found this great resource of information, yet refuse to open your ears and eyes enough to benefit from it.

I know you will come back and argue these points as well. Honestly, I just feel bad for your kid.

How could you possibly feel bad for my kid? I want my kid to properly learn the game of baseball including every type of scenerio that comes about. I am not going to sit and be idle letting my son believe it was somehow the kids fault for what went wrong in that inning. After that happened, my son actually told me that he was done with fallball. He knew dang well that somehow our scoring opportunity was completely thrown aside and that it should have never gone down like that. Me and my son talk often about those kinds of things- mental lapses by coaches (including my own coaching mishaps) and players alike. Going through experiences like that we talk about how we could have avoided that and what not to do in the future.

The bottom line that both me and my son got out of that is that we both still love the coach- he is a good man and a great friend but that sometimes even coaches can have not so good of judgment and make decisions that appear to come from some unknown region of the brain. I don't know why it happened the way it did, what the coach was thinking, but the moral of the story here is that when you throw away the nice cards being dealt, don't complain when the new cards you wished for turn utterly against you- generally speaking- don't fight that gift which is being handed to you on a silver platter.

Like I mentioned before, this particular set of cards- the situation, was that the pitcher had given up a hit to the #9 batter and then proceeded to walk the #1 and #2 batter to load the bases for the number #3 batter. Now the cards being dealt is that the pitcher is definately struggling to find the strike zone. The odds of him walking in the tying run are pretty good. So, first go with that. Why, after seeing the pitcher just walk two guys, would one want to call a squeeze bunt? Not my best choice as a coach, but each to their own. But, to try the squeeze play the second time and again not put the ball into play and again runner gets out at home plate is definately not something you draw up in your playbook, especially when you have your best hitter on deck. Your playbook should be played around setting up a situation for the best hitter to come to bat and drive in runs. Well, he never even got the chance. Was it poor bunting ability by the kid? It's pretty hard to bunt a ball thrown over your head (remember, the pitcher was struggling). This is just a simple open and closed case of "what not to do" plain and simple. Play the cards being dealt, especially when it's a good hand. There is no doubt in my mind had the coach been thinking about how poorly the pitcher was throwing, that he would just let the count go deep and see if one could generate a walk against him and then bring up the better hitter to drive in some runs.

The whole situation is permantly burned into my mind as something that should never happen, but if it does, chalk it up as a poor coaching decision- nothing more and nothing less. I still love the coach, but there is no way I am going to let that situation not be a positive learning situation for son as to "what not to do". And what is that lesson I told son- "Never squeeze bunt with bases loaded, a struggling pitcher, no outs and your #3 and #4 hitters coming up to bat."

GBM- I've read every word of every post in this thread, twice. It might have been a bad coaching decision. But it also could have been a brilliant coaching decision. Playing Monday morning quarterback will get you nowhere. Defending your point is different than changing your point, or adding information or opinions after the fact.

Fact is, you didn't like the coaching decision. Well, that's completely fine. I play in college and my coach makes decisions that I find to be bad coaching decisions...several every game, actually. But he has 715 career coaching wins under his belt, and counting. It's sort of not my place to interject an opinion, especially in a negative light.

Questioning a decision is natural. Rationalizing it the way you did is incorrect. You stated opinions and construed them as facts, and refused to acknowledge other people's insight on the topic as well.

As a person who loves the game of baseball and can talk about it for hours, people like you are incredibly frustrating. It's tough getting through to those who feel as though they know everything and will not allow another person's knowledge tarnish their own.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The problem I have is the coach doesn't think it is or was his fault. I disagree- bad coaching and I will teach my son and others all day long what we can learn from that situation.

It wasn't the coaches fault - it was the fault of the kid who failed to get the bunt down and the same kid who missed the sign. The coach didn't put the play on thinking it wasn't going to work. He believed it would work and it very well could have. If the kid had got the bunt down then we aren't having this conversation.

GBM - no offense but you are wrong here and this coming from a guy who would let them swing the bat. The squeeze is not a bad call in this situation. But you're really wrong by criticizing the coach to your son and his buddies on the team. You're not going to help them succeed by putting those doubts in their heads.

What do you think the anaylists on ESPN Baseball Tonight would say if they had just watched a situation just like this where bases are loaded, no outs, pitcher struggling, no sign of pitchinmg relief, the #3 and #4 batter coming up and then all three outs are recorded without the ball ever being put into play and the on deck batter never getting a chance to swing the bat, all the while the tying run on third never scores?

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
GBM- I've read every word of every post in this thread, twice. It might have been a bad coaching decision. But it also could have been a brilliant coaching decision. Playing Monday morning quarterback will get you nowhere. Defending your point is different than changing your point, or adding information or opinions after the fact.

Fact is, you didn't like the coaching decision. Well, that's completely fine. I play in college and my coach makes decisions that I find to be bad coaching decisions...several every game, actually. But he has 715 career coaching wins under his belt, and counting. It's sort of not my place to interject an opinion, especially in a negative light.

Questioning a decision is natural. Rationalizing it the way you did is incorrect. You stated opinions and construed them as facts, and refused to acknowledge other people's insight on the topic as well.

As a person who loves the game of baseball and can talk about it for hours, people like you are incredibly frustrating. It's tough getting through to those who feel as though they know everything and will not allow another person's knowledge tarnish their own.

It's frustrating to watch baseball when it isn't played right and the players lose interest when it don't have to work like that. It takes a lot of positive reinforcement (yes I am one of the coaches on the team) to reinstill in those kids minds why they play after a situation like that. It's over with now, you move on and somehow try to overlook the situation as to still have a positive communication with the head coach. Perhaps you are right in that I maybe didn't handle the siuation the very best but on the other hand I think it a diservice on the kids account to allow them to believe it was somehow their fault. As a head coach on many other teams I have many times admitted mistakes and instilled a positive outlook for th eplayers. But when you get kids wanting to quit the team, lose interest in the game they love, and thinking their skills suck, you have to take charge and right the ship.

I do want you to know, that even though I maybe didn't handle the situation altogether the right way in my own mind, my best interest is for teaching the kids the proper way to play ball and how to work through bad mistakes, be it a coaching decision or a players decision. It is a team game and as a team game, the players need to know together with positive reinforcment what can be learned from that.