Carolina Shores Collegiate Summer League?

$1,575 for 17 regular season games seems kind of pricey to me. Always a higher risk signing up for the first year, too.

http://www.carolinashoresbaseball.com/

Seems pricey, but you do get "Resort Style Accommodations!"

You may want to search hsbbweb for prior Myrtle Beach area Collegiate league threads from several years ago. There are several.  I know this is a new league, but do your research.

 How much is more common?  And what exactly are the risks with signing with a new league?  New to this so any guidance would be welcome.  

This is three times the price for less than half the baseball offered by most collegiate summer leagues. 

17 games over the course of a month is less than half the baseball of a typical collegiate summer league. For most players, the purpose of collegiate summer baseball is to get reps playing nearly every day for 2 full months.  Four games per week for a month isn't playing summer baseball: it's working a little baseball into your busy schedule of fishing and golf. If you're a pitcher, that gives you perhaps four starts @ $400 per start.

After the certainty of not getting enough baseball, the biggest risk is that you won't get good enough baseball. Players need their summer reps to be against competition reasonably similar to what they'll face on their college team. This looks almost like a pay-to-play operation. I'd want to know who they've signed from which schools.

Then there are all the risks associated with the living arrangements. In most leagues, teams figure out how to give players decent places to live, adequate food (either through host families or team meals or both), access to gym facilities, and local transportation (even if it's just pairing up guys with and without cars with the same host families). Are the players stuffed into rooms and eating fast food like college kids on spring break? Or do they have suitable conditions to eat, sleep, wash clothes, and work out?

Given the spotty history of college summer ball in Myrtle Beach, I would do a lot of homework and tread very carefully.

Best wishes,

Thanks a lot for that!

Slugger;

Did your son's Coach recommend this new League?

Have you contacted the web poster from the Valley League [outstanding League].

30 players X $1575.00 = $47,250.00. Check the fields I do not noticed a quantity of seating.

Why not the California Summer Leagues?

Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, SLO, Redondo Beach, Humbolt Crabs, Healdsburg Prunepackers, Novato Knicks.

Bob

Don't know.   Son just sent me a text a couple hours ago telling me he got a text from one of the coaches of one of the teams in the league offering him a spot.  Not sure about anything else.  Advised the son to talk to coaches and get their take on things. But I thought I'd find out anything I could from the wise heads here. 

Our son played in the NECBL and CPL and never had to pay a dime. I'm unfamiliar with this league...sorry, not much help.

Hmm...my son got a text from one of the coaches of this league a few weeks ago too.  He forwarded me the text then and pretty much said the same thing.  When I googled the league then, an older website came up, not the one you linked. 

So did you and you son take any further actions. I'm kind of convinced by the guys here that this may not be a high level summer baseball experience

Did you go back through the old threads?

Are the folks running the new program the same folks as the old program?

There is a new summer league starting in the Richmond, VA area (see the recent thread on the (sic) "Common Wealth league") and they are only charging $500/$600 with host families.   I kinda get the "pay to play" feeling for the Myrtle Beach league, but I may be totally wrong.

My concern, as someone posted above, is that you are paying dearly for the "resort accommodations" which probably (hopefully) include a kitchen, and that your son may be fending for himself for food.  Without a car, that could be tough.  And more out of pocket $ for you.

Please research the old threads.

x 5 teams = $236,250.  For one month.  

Did go back through the old threads enough to know some troubled history with summer baseball in that area.  Couldn't tell if these were new or old players

Have your son talk to his college coaches. No way would I pay to play as a college player during the summer. There are just too many opportunities that do not require you to pay to play. Imagine the level of competition if the league is made up of players that are paying to play during the summer as well. If his coaches can't get him a roster spot in a league that does not require pay for play I would spend the summer working out and bag it. JMO 

Sounds incredibly pricey. Some leagues still don't charge a fee but most of the nonprofit leagues (See NACSB) have some type of fee...but nothing like this. Our league (Valley) charges a $200 player fee, 42 game schedule, players stay with host families (no charge) and travel on team buses. While I really don't like any player fees, for many nonprofit teams and leagues it was a matter of survival.  A typical Valley League team budget runs anywhere from $35,000 to $55,000.  For profit leagues (for example, Northwoods, Coastal) may not charge a fee and play a lot more games, as many as 72, but there's an owner trying to make a profit so it's understandable.   The last Myrtle Beach league failed miserably and according to some players that I talked with that played there, it was vastly over-sold and poorly run.  I'd look long and hard for other options before paying $1500, but be aware most leagues are filling rosters earlier and earlier-we had a full roster for the summer of 2016 before September 1.  Leagues are making calls to coaches earlier, and summer teams are getting coach calls earlier.  Hope this helps a bit.

hokieone I didn't realize the valley charged. But 200 bucks to play in that league doesn't sound bad at all. My beef with paying to play has everything to do with the fact - You already spent a ton of money playing before he got to college. Your paying for college and we all know no matter how much scholly you get it's expensive. You just went through the grind of a college school year and baseball year. And now you want me to pay even more to play? What's the net gain of playing 20 games over the summer for that amount of money vs staying home and working out really hard?

My son played in the Great Lakes and the CPL. Both were 0 cost. He had incredible host families that simply took care of everything. I can tell you if my son would had to pay to play in the summer while in college he would have been at home working and working out. hokie again no offense. 200 bucks is very reasonable and I understand the reasons why from your post. My son is a college coach and he makes it a priority to find good summer homes for his players. He starts very early on it and because he was a player and enjoyed the experience so much he wants to make sure his players get the good fit for them. Both in level of competition and location. And the valley would def fall into that category.

I put this on a coaching staff to build those relationships and take care of the players. And to be honest with them. "Hey son go home and work on ________________________." Don't blow your parents money on that _________________________." But that's just me. Doesn't there come a time when you simply say enough? Now these people have moved into the college realm. Milking every freaking cent they can out of people. It's akin to 6 year old travel ball. Pointless and money grubbing. JMHO

Thanks for the input folks. Based on it, I think we are going to take a pass on this one.  Doesn't seem like much of an opportunity -- except an opportunity to spend some money and spend the summer far from home without getting in much baseball to boot. 

I got that too by reading the comments here.  It's a very new league too.  My son wasn't interested in playing in the east coast one bit so I didn't delve any further. 

Biggest red flag for me is that there is not listing of the commissioner or anyway to know who is running this. My guess is one of the guys from the old defunct leagues, but they do not want to tie there name to it because the reputation they have. 

My son played in the Valley and the Great lakes. There was no charge for the Valley league, but there was a charge for the Great Lakes. The team in the Great Lakes had lost their owner, and is trying to keep going. The price was reasonable and it was close enough that we could see all his games. 

This is way too pricey. especially for the number of games. 

In 2015, are there any leagues not charging anything at all?

Just wondering.

$200, $250, $500, $600, $750 are the amounts that I have seen.

(Besides the MB league above)

Based on our experience and talking with others over a number of years, I hope your son might have a change of heart.  Our son's experiences were in the NECBL as a player and Cape as a coach.  To be honest, there is just nothing quite like them in the West.  Whether someone is playing in Keene, NH, Newport, RI., or other locations, the experience with fan support, the settings, smaller communities,  and being part of a New England "community," for instance, just does not seem  to replicate  on the West Coast, although I understand some teams in the West Coast collegiate are getting there.

There is info on the commissioner, but you have to click around to find his contact info;

 Seems to be a JC coach here in California.  What I can't tell is if he or the coach that contacted my son was involved with the earlier leagues in the area that I read about here.      Those leagues sounded like real winners!

$1575 Registration Fee payable to Carolina Shores Collegiate Baseball League

Fees Includes:

  --  Roster spot with guaranteed playing time in the 2016 Carolina Shores CBL

  --  Resort-style accomodations

  --  Uniform top

  --  Flex-Fit team hat

$275 non-refundable deposit to secure your roster spot and you are welcome to make monthly payments until full payment of $1575 is reached by May 15, 2016. Contact League Commissioner Nate Lambdin @ (760) 680-1404 for more information

My son was going to play in the Perfect Game League in 2015 but surgery prevented him.

The team charges $500, but they hand all of it over to the host families to cover food for the summer.

Also, the team reimburses some travel expenses for players who fulfill their promise to stay for the entire summer.

So in this situation, no money flows from the players either to the team or the league for operating expenses or salaries. 

So, I wrote to the commissioner and asked him a few questions.  Here is his response explaining more about his league and how it operates.  Would love to know what you all think 

The Carolina Shores Collegiate Baseball League was created by a small group of retired collegiate coaches--some of whom have coached in similar leagues in the Myrtle Beach, SC area and around the country.

 

Some background on why we are doing things the way are...One of our executive board members surveyed over 1,000 collegiate baseball players in 2013 for a doctorial thesis and discovered that players were often frustrated by the housing piece to Summer baseball. Issues involving host families, inadequate accommodations, uncomfortable situations in their over-all living situation were prevalent in the survey. Therefore, the Carolina Shores Collegiate League opted to have top-of-the-line accommodations as part of the league package. And yes, in the greater Myrtle Beach area--especially in the peak the Summer time and over the July 4th holiday--it is expensive to house over 100 student-athletes in a resort for a month. Our athletes will reside in fully furnished 2-bedroom, two bath condos with washer and dryers and everything from utensils to a blender is at their hands. It's situated  behind gates on a golf course just minutes from Atlantic Beaches.

 

Speaking of beaches, another concern athletes had in the survey was that there wasn't anything to do when they weren't playing...of course thousands and thousands of tourist flock to this area every Summer giving our players that "vacation" feel while working on their baseball skills.

 

Our rosters are formulated with approximately 12 position players and 12 pitchers to ensure and maximize playing time. If a player isn't in the starting line-up on Monday, he will be in the line-up on Tuesday. In many leagues its all about wining and playing a set nine or ten guys and, in many cases, over-using pitcher's arms. Our league's philosophy is about "player development and keeping arms healthy."

 

As far as the shorter season...many university pitching coaches across the country are "gun-shy" about sending their pitchers away for a 50 game Summer season because they often come back with injures or 'tired arm syndrome." Our pitchers are on a calculated, every third game rotation with a maximum pitch count. Additionally, each outing our pitchers are videotaped--their pitch count is tract, balls & strikes ratio is monitored, their first-pitch strike ratio is recorded and all statistical data is sent to the athletes' university pitching coach at the end of each week.

 

Another aspect of the shorter season is that many of the student-athletes are going "away" to college and then are gone the entire Summer and thus have no time with their families back home or, recuperation time before returning to school. And finally--in today's world--quite honestly players do get slightly "burned-out" after a long Fall, Spring and Summer. We already have contracts on over 70 players and will likely have rosters completed by Thanksgiving.

 

We believe that our organization will provide a truly positive experience in the lives of the 120 athletes headed our way this Summer!

What do you think?  BS or valid points?

Sounds like spin to make their weak points sound like strengths.

Accommodations:  Host families are an extremely positive part of the summer experience for many players in many leagues. Many host families go above and beyond to provide healthy, wholesome home bases and community connections that no resort hotel could hope to replicate at any cost. Not having host families is a definite minus. It adds cost and it removes the supportive, stabilizing, civilizing influence that host families provide.  Using a survey indicating some players at some times in some places had frustration with their host families to justify making everyone pay more is spin.

Short season: Each year, college coaches all over the country consider their players'  development, conditioning, fatigue, academic status and overall status and potential with the team. They send some to play summer ball. They keep some at school to rest and condition. And they send some to play with pitch counts or other restrictions.  However, the players they do send off to play--usually underclassmen--need game experience and plenty of it if they want to compete for playing time at their colleges. The purpose of summer ball is to get better at baseball, and nobody is going to get much better in a summer when they get 50 AB's or 4 starts.  Saying the 17-game season prevents overuse and injury is spin.

Did he say anything about the quality of players he is signing? What divisions, conferences, and schools are sending players?

 No, and I explicitly asked him about that.

They probably surveyed the kids who have played in Myrtle Beach the past few years, and had to sleep 4 to a room in flea-bag motels. Host families are probably the least of the accommodation complaints.

I am of the opinion that anyone that is willing to provide an opportunity for young men to play is doing what they can for both the sport and the community.

Is their formula the same as other leagues; no, but it is their attempt to make things work. The plan that is outlined above makes sense, they have been open about what the costs will be and how they plan to operate.

Until they have operated for a summer I don't think it is fair to judge this program harshly until they have a summer of operating experience.

As to the quality of the player; they have made it clear that their model is about giving kids a platform to improve. Competition is great; yet the reality is summer ball should be about getting better.

Is this program for everyone; no, but it is an option for those that may not want an entire summer, can't be picked up by the more traditional leagues or someone that is looking for both baseball and a summer vacation.

Unless they screw things up; I want to wish them good luck and I hope they are successful. It is a tough thankless business trying to provide baseball to college level kids.

FYI, Valley just started the $200 player fee in 2015. As mentioned earlier, it was a matter of financial survival for some teams. The extra $5000 turned some team's ink from red to black.  Individual teams have the discretion to grant waivers in the event of financial hardships. We had 2-3 college coaches mention it was very tight for some players and we waived those player fees as did other teams.  Coaches are very straight with us so there's no official format-our General Manager tells players and coaches there is a fee, and waivers are available for hardships.  An interesting point: in the board discussion before the vote on charging fees, it was mentioned that many parents were paying $1000-$2000 per summer for travel ball when their guys were in high school so $200 wouldn't devastate anyone..and if it did, waivers are available. The reaction to fees has not been significant; I think we had 1 or perhaps 2 players opt against us for a team in a for profit league that charged no player fees.   We've been fortunate enough to find part-time jobs for any players wanting one so it all seems to work out.    I don't like the fees but with so much being done by so many volunteers all over the place, and the fees covering only about 10-15% of the actual costs, it's still a pretty good deal for players.

I respectfully disagree.

I think they already screwed up by introducing themselves in a manner that raises so many red flags.  

They set up an unprofessional and unfinished website that doesn't say anything about the ownership structure of the league and its teams. It doesn't say whether they are affiliated or recognized by any of the collegiate summer baseball associations. It doesn't identify any league officials other than the commissioner, whose qualifications it does not provide. It doesn't say who will be coaching any of the teams.

They gave unsatisfying explanations for the choice of accommodations and the length of season.

They declined to answer questions about the quality of players they are signing.

They don't identify the venues or even the cities in which games will be played.  Their site has pictures of Myrtle Beach and the scoreboard at Myrtle Beach High School. The players will stay 25 miles outside of Myrtle Beach across the NC state line. But the only venue identified on their eteamz site is another 45 minutes north of the hotel, almost to Wilmington. Shouldn't they at least reveal what state they'll play in?

I agree with you that it is a tough, thankless business. The ones that succeed have capital, community support, strong boards, and solid baseball connections.  The ones that don't can cost their customers a lot of money and make them waste an important development opportunity.  

This league has given no reason to believe they have anything real to back up their shaky website. 

It is not unduly harsh or judgmental to point out these concerns. 

Swampboy:

I understand and don't disagree with your concerns. The points (Red Flags) are what I would focus on as a parent before I made a financial commitment.

But given the background of the organizers "a small group of retired collegiate coaches--some of whom have coached in similar leagues" does it really surprise you that you have the questions that you do. I have not met too many "collegiate coaches" that could run a business, after all they are baseball coaches.

It doesn't change my belief that they should be given the benefit of the doubt until they screw things up after all they are providing young men an option to play baseball. But that doesn't mean that one should not do their due diligence before making a financial commitment.

As usual, great points by Swamp and ILVBB (and Hokie).  Slugger, you'll have to let us know if you can get more info about venues, level of play, etc.  Even if the pricing and number of games is acceptable to you, I would be a bit concerned about forking over $1600 to an organization that isn't fully formed yet.  What assurance do you have in the event they can't pull it completely together (and possibly spend your $$ in the attempt to do so)?  Also, if players are put up in condo's, they are also responsible for all of their own food, as opposed to getting some relief from host family meals, which adds even more to the expense. 

As a side note... Hokie, I think $200 is totally reasonable, But I somewhat disagree with the board assessment about the players spending $1000 - $2000 on travel in HS and correlating that to the lesser fee.  Yes, the $200 for college summer ball won't devastate anyone but that bigger expenditure came prior to the player/parents going on the hook for several thousand dollars of annual tuition.  So, when the summer fees start to get up beyond the $500 mark, it probably becomes a significant sum to consider for many of the newly-further-in-debt.

While I certainly understand the host family issue as that can be a struggle to find "good" or "reliable" ones for Leagues - having players live in 2BR units doesn't necessarily mean 2 or 4 players per unit...  I have to imagine there will be some amount of security deposit required for those units and let's face it, we know college age kids aren't always the best at keeping things 'clean' or 'pristine'. Say nothing about their ability to drink...  What about getting along with roommates - that can always be tough... Of course for the players, it's cool - they are at a beach, for a month, on mom/dad's dime, at the hottest point of the season... Almost like Spring Break, except hotter, much hotter...

I think anyone who's played or watched summer ball can also call b*s* on the concept of playing for development over playing for the win. Are they going to institute the old n-runs or 3 outs an inning, too? High level players want to win... If they were out there "just to have fun", the level of play wouldn't be very good. Will parents/players be "counting" innings and AB's - that'll lead to a few confrontations similar to U13->U15 travel ball.

Like others note - way too many red flags. I think the "owners" of the league are not being very realistic or pragmatic with their approach. Perhaps their hearts are in the right place, but I wonder if they've thought things through. What are they going to do if (and when) players get injured playing in a game? What about a player that's not productive? or a pitcher that well is just throwing BP?  Will they release players? Do parents get refunds? only if they can find a replacement?  How much does the replacement pay? At $200 you are a lot less concerned that at $1600...

ILVBB, 

I get what you're saying about coaches not necessarily being good business men, and I am generally willing to overlook rough spots if business--especially new ones--are focused on getting the big things right.  

Perhaps they could strike some of the red flags by giving more information, such as the names and resumes of the retired coaches behind the operation.  Then people could say, "OK, maybe the website is lame, but that's because these are baseball guys focused on what's happening on the field."

We'll see how it turns out.  

Cabbagehead-I totally agree and argued exactly that- college baseball parents were writing big checks already just for school but alas got outvoted. A pure democracy in action. 

Most of the collegiate summer leagues I'm familiar with were next to nothing.  Just a few dollars a month to keep the players at amatuer status.  Most have host families that you pay $50 - $100 a month.  the players can earn extra money by participating in the camps, or getting employment from local businesses.  I live in Texas and when the TCL started, it didn't cost the players more than $100 month.  My son was signed to play in the West Coast league and all they wanted was $250 for the summer.  I think I had to pay $50 a month for the Cape Cod League last year.  I also think each team in the league may be a little different. 

Also, on a side note, and more specifically about baseball in that area...

From my experience dragging my kid around to play in Myrtle Beach, there aren't enough quality fields in that area and the teams had to drive all over the place just to play 14U game on a 60/90 field.