Catch or no catch?

quote:

dave0mary

Like PIAA I have read this conversation and as a trainer of umpires at many levels for many years what did was wrong on every level.
I don't care if it was the guy's first game or the call was the worst call ever, you are not allowed to change his call. If you want to give him your input, that's your choice, that's another discussion, but under no circumstances do you step in and change the call.
There are several reasons for this, first it is against the rules. Just because you are the PU, UIC or senior ump, it doesn't mean you can run around changing calls, that rule has been quoted. Second, you aren't teaching anything to the new guy except that you can overstep your bounds. Third is twofold, you will shatter his confidence and you will shatter the coach's confidence in him.
When the play happened I assume the coach came out to discuss the call because you said he refused to change his call. Your job is to let him have his argument, his call/his discussion. If the coach is smart he will get the guy to admit he had him off the bag but called him safe anyway. If so then he should protest and then you can step in and quietly discuss the play and convince him that changing the call is the proper thing to do. However if you can't convince him then the protest stands and you play ball, you CANNOT CHANGE THE CALL! If the coach comes out and complains about his intellegence and never really discusses the call then you stay out of it. If the coach gets himself tossed, that's his problem.
After the game you discuss the call, proper timing, proper game management, then go do game two. By stepping on his toes, embarassing him and undermining his authority, it caused you to lose a partner and possibly caused him to reconsider umpiring at all.
By my count he made three mistakes. One was making a horrible call, either because of bad timing or just bad judgment. Two was refusing consider changing the call. Third was leaving and not covering the second game. He probably should have stayed, worked the game and then called the assignor and explained what went on and that he never work with you again.
You took a bad situation and made it worse, totally pulled the rug from under him and taught him nothing. It could have been an excellent teaching moment but it turned into a mess.

Try not to get your ump tights in a bunch. Iron them though to get the cup back in.

LOL

Dave,
So when you are behind the plate and you call a strike in some kid's eyes, can your partner doing the bases, who happens to be the UIC, change your call? Everybody in the park knows you blew it and common sense says any pitch that high isn't in the strike zone. Where do you draw the line as to how bad a call has to be before it's disregarded? So aside from the fact that you are disregarding the rules that you are out there to uphold, your argument at some point becomes hypocritical. It doesn't hold water. And anyway, it was just a summer night game. Why would a coach go crazy? You'd think he'd have a chuckle and go back to swatting mosquitos. Another contracdiction in your reasoning. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's ego. If common sense tells you anything, it's that you have to be consistent in applying the rules.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kumi:
Dave,
So when you are behind the plate and you call a strike in some kid's eyes, can your partner doing the bases, who happens to be the UIC, ...QUOTE]

Last time I checked, the UIC is behind the plate. Unless you meant the University of Chicago (UIC) center. Then my bad.

I stand corrected, you are right. 10-2-1

It's good to see you sticking by the rule book!

quote:

Originally posted by dave0mary:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kumi:
Dave,
So when you are behind the plate and you call a strike in some kid's eyes, can your partner doing the bases, who happens to be the UIC, ...QUOTE]

Last time I checked, the UIC is behind the plate. Unless you meant the University of Chicago (UIC) center. Then my bad.

So if the UIC is the guy behind the plate would you have done the same thing to this guy if he was behind the plate and therefore the UIC? Instead of a play at second it's a play at the plate and he's obviously safe / out but the guy goes the other way - would you overrule him then?

quote:

Originally posted by Kumi:
I stand corrected, you are right. 10-2-1

It's good to see you sticking by the rule book!

Yeah - ya know - I circumvented the rules 8 YEARS AGO. One time. I will forever pay for it with floggings from this board. I'm banished for life from the acceptance into the society here. I will wear my crown with shame. I haven't given up though ... I'm a positive thinker!! I will search till the cows come home to find anyone who admits they're human and messed up as well. Just not here of course.

I was asked to do a favor to fill in for a guy who had a kid in his family hurt. It was for a city league of kids who don't play baseball; but were given the chance to participate in this program. Poor neighborhood with at risk kids. About 10 years ago. High school age. When I asked if we would use high school rules, the answer was "well, sure - I guess." Now c'mon, the elite here have to give me brownie points for asking, please? But alas, those points will disapper quickly when I get into the things I did non-rule/non-standard. I can't even count them. Couldn't you just scream? I think they didn't even have lineups! Possible subbing rule infractions? The relief pitcher threw NINE warmup throws. AARRRGGGG!!!

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

Why do you guys call coaches rats? I know there are some idiots out there but not all of us are. There are plenty like me who want to know the rules and have a good relationship with an ump.

You're right coach. And guys like you, who play hard and by the rules, and who exercise good sporting behavior, make our job fun. Believe me - we want to give you the best game we have in the bag. We might even (silently) root for your team, although there is no way we could ever compromise our integrity and give you a break on a call.

To me, a RAT is a player or coach who constantly tries to cheat, claiming it is "part of the game" to try and get away with breaking the rules or gaining an unfair advantage.

A RAT is a 1st base coach who, after clearly seeing the throw beat his batter by half a step, will look me in the eye and give an emphatic SAFE signal, trying to influence my decision and get me to make an incorrect call that would benefit his team.

A RAT is a batter who swings at a pitch, steps out over the plate and then ducks, trying to gain an unfair advantage for a runner stealing on the pitch without getting called for it. He knows what he's doing. He never steps out over the plate when no one is stealing.

I could go on, but you know what I mean.

Now in just about every game we do (and we do a LOT more games per season than the average player or coach), a RAT will cross our path and try and steal a piece of cheese. It is our job to catch the RATS and apply the penalty, if any, proscribed by the rules.

RATS are sneaky and fast. We never know when they will pop-up, so we have to be on the lookout for them all game. And, as I said above, at least one RAT (and possibly many) will show up in just about EVERY GAME WE DO.

Because of this, we tend to generalize. It also stems from an "us vs. them" mentality that exists (and always has existed) on both sides, and which is kind of fun. That IS part of the game.

You don't sound like a RAT to me. So if I occasionally put all players and coaches in that category, I apologize. I don't mean you or your ilk.

dave0mary

OK, so we've now heard lots reason why this overrule didn't matter, and from my point of view, sometimes it is desireable to umpire in a relaxed fashion.

Fine.

Now, why did you make the original post? You dredged up an older post and described a situation which happened in what now turns out to be a fun scrimmage where the usual rules don't apply. That really isn't useful behavior. It doesn't help anybody else, and you weren't asking a question.

What was the benefit of your original post to anybody?

quote:

Originally posted by dave0mary:
I will search till the cows come home to find anyone who admits they're human and messed up as well. Just not here of course.

dave,
You dont have to do that. All you have to do is go into the search posts here on this forum and you will see many such posts where those of us here have admitted mistakes, blown calls and generally screwed up.....

We have presented them as learning opportunities for those umpires who post here....

If you want me to direct you to some posts to review, PM me and I can assist....

quote:

What was the benefit of your original post to anybody?

I thought it would be really interesting for people to know I ended up in the back of an ambulance - just trying to do my job. Had no idea it would create a firestorm from **** umps. I HAVE learned my lesson. If I want to ask a Q of a bunch of guys who would never break a rule, I'll come here. Mean time, I'll search for the board of common sense.

quote:

If you want me to direct you to some posts to review, PM me and I can assist....

Won't be necessary.