Catcher Faking Throw

I dont like fake throws because of what happened in game #1--that happens all too often

I don't like fake throws as described in scenario #1. I love fake throws as described in scenario #2 and done when the game dictates. When done correctly as Catching Coach describes it can be very effective. Taught right, practiced and executed.

But HS kids are HS kids--I like to err on the side of less chance for screwups

Poppeycock.

I don't like having the ball in the glove during a full arm fake.

Redbird5,

What are your concerns about the ball being in the glove??

No concerns, I just don't like it.

If you don't have enough confidence in your player to handle the ball, why fake at all?

Plus, if you execute a full arm fake properly, you do not need to slow up your arm "in the slot".

I have always felt that the time spent working on "trick plays" or "fakes" can be better spent working on fundamentals or on flaws in the players game

Rather have a team that was fundamentally solid rather than a team carrying a bag of tricks

I have to disagree with the honorable TR on this one.

Fake throws are a very fundamental part of the game. Some teams will practice them during infield. (Double plays at 2B – fake the throw to 1B and go to 3B)

With runners on base, especially 2B, if an infielder does not have a play at 1B, ie. Bobbles the ball, he should fake the throw to 1B and then check forward runners. Sometimes the forward runner will take an extra stride or two past the bag if he thinks the ball is going to be thrown. Almost always this will happen with the runner rounding 3B.

These do not fall into the category of trick plays. It falls under the category of good solid fundamental baseball. This includes the play in question, as it’s one of several first and third double steal defensive plays. You let the runner at 1B have 2B, fake the throw and hope the runner at 3B breaks toward the plate. It might be the safest double steal defense if the runner at 3B is the winning run. The fake throw gives the opportunity for the runner at 3B to make a mistake and get you out of a mess. Without the fake throw you don’t have that opportunity.

Catching coach,

Could you please explain the advantage of leaving the ball in the glove on a fake throw? Usually when I see a player throwing the ball directly down into the ground it’s not because of a fake throw. It’s usually because the fielder intends to throw and then changes his mind at the last instant. Or he is just off balance so far he has lost control of his body. Neither of these should ever happen on a fake throw. Any fielder making a fake throw should have the appropriate grip on the ball and not lose control of the baseball.

Anyway, it seems to me that leaving the ball in the glove kind of defeats the purpose of quickly making a throw to get the runner you’re trying to get. I do have an open mind about these things if you care to explain.

You go PG!!

TR and Redbird and Redbird especially...why should we take pause if you don't like something without explanation. If you have and arguement, state in man. Otherwise you leave me with Teacherman on this one. And Teacherman, if I'm taking your side... please try real hard to use whatever people skills you have so I don't look bad backing you. TR...playing to avoid mistakes isn't always the answer IMO. You have never struck me as not having guts.

Now regarding the ball in the glove...the ball is originally in the glove on a steal, yet runners are still thrown out. The reason the ball is best in the glove when faking a throw is to prevent the scenario in #1. The ball in glove in my experience has never prevented the guy on third being thrown out following the fake to second if the fake has been executed deftly to include the players in the field. You pick it and throw it. This is not a trick or goofy play. A good fake is part and parcel a part of the game.

Teacherman, no need to respond to this...I already know exactly what you'll say....

I just read and responded to a post on another board of a claim that a high school catcher popped a 1.6. The kids name wasn't mentioned but it wasn't Sid Finch. PG...what's the best POP your guys have recorded and verified?

Just so you know mooner, I'll respond whenever and however I want to.

And, you're not worth the time.

halfmoonslider,

I don't care if you take "pause" because of anything I post. As a matter of fact, I didn't respond to you.

For the record, I feel the same was as PG but didn't have the time to post so eloquently.

First of all the runner should not get anymore on his lead untill he sees the ball clear the pitchers head. I like pitcher cut off , second base cut off and throw through with the pitcher faking a cut to freeze the runner. We use the catcher poping up to throw to second and then turn and throw to third if we see that the runner is getting a big secondary lead and not busting back. We practice first and thirds daily for about 15 minutes always with runners. Look coaches are going to see the ball clear the pitcher before they go home. And most of the time they are not going to go home unless the throw is botched at second base. If you have pitchers that hold runners well and a good solid catcher that can throw well to 2b you are in good shape. We have had three teams try to steal second on first and thirds this year. We have thrown through all three times nailed the runner and the guy at third was froze by the fake cuts by the pitcher and second baseman. By the time they realize that the throw is going all the way through it is too late to break home. If executed and practiced enough with strong arms it is easily defensed. I really dont like the fake throw to second throw to third because most teams are trying to take second without paying a price for it. Coach is telling his guy at third to see the ball through and hold unless its thrown away at second base. Most of the time the runner ends up at second and the runner at third gets back to third. Get an out and hold the runner at third thats what I want. The safe play is the pitcher cut off play. Sometimes you can steal an out here at third but it requires the baserunner to make a mistake. Throwing out the runner at second and freezing the runner at third with fake cuts does not require the other team to make a mistake. You just have to execute what you practice. JMO

I have never been one that appreciates “trick” plays or one that relies on orchestrated deception to work but there are some plays regarded as fundamental baseball that require pump fakes and throws to secondary positions. I’m not suggesting the fake to second with a man on 1st and 3rd is a bush league “trick” play at all, but the official rules of baseball does make mention in specific instances where players and teams will be penalized for attempting deceptive or confusing action. In the situation described by catching coach I personally like the catcher to throw to the second baseman with the intent of getting an out at either 2nd base or the runner thrown out at home. I guess I like the throw to second because you’re using baseball talent not acting skills.
Fungo

Teacherman, I deserved that and apologize. I was feeling feisty last night and what I said regarding you was uncalled for. Please accept my apologies.

quote:

I don't like having the ball in the glove during a full arm fake.

Redbird please don't take offense, but why did you post this? Who does it help?

quote:

Redbird5,What are your concerns about the ball being in the glove??

Catching Coach beat me to the punch above, but it's the same question I was about to ask.

[QUOTE]No concerns, I just don't like it./QUOTE]

My point, Redbird is that PG took the time to explain his position. Coach May took the time to explain his position. You just apparently wanted everyone to know you didn't like it. OK thanks. I for one was just hoping for an explanation of why. Some may enter a discussion already dead set on the answer. I am willing to listen if you have a better way.

quote:

...but the official rules of baseball does make mention in specific instances where players and teams will be penalized for attempting deceptive or confusing action. ...

You're joking right?

quote:

...My point, Redbird is that PG took the time to explain his position. Coach May took the time to explain his position. You just apparently wanted everyone to know you didn't like it. OK thanks. I for one was just hoping for an explanation of why. Some may enter a discussion already dead set on the answer. I am willing to listen if you have a better way.

And some people think the topic is so ridiculous that no explanation is needed.

halfmoonslider,

Again...I didn't have time to post a full answer. PG answered as well (if not better) as I could have done point for point.

And I don't care to take the time to post more. Really no big deal.

No problem, Redbird. I had no intention of making a thread contentious. I read significantly more than I post (which means I take more than I give) and respect your opinions. I was looking for more, that's all. Thanks...

Well Teach, you may be right. I don't think this topic is going to change the baseball world. So why waste your time with "Poppycock"? Sometimes it's just better to keep your thoughts to yourself. I'll take my own advice at this point.

PG

Thanx for the "honorable" tag--I appreciate it-- and we can agree to disagree

Halfmoon-- I never have been known to back down nor have a lack of guts but there are times on a ballfield I like to minimize the error factor--this is one of them--it is not a lack of guts

This might be off the subject because we are talking about faking a throw with the ball in the glove. But what are you telling the other team when you allow a team to take second base and put another runner in scoring posistion by trying to fake out the runner at third? What if your fake does not work? Now you have two guys in scoring posistion and the double play is off. As a coach if Im coaching third base I am not going to run myself out of an inning and take second if I think the catcher can throw me out at second base. If I release at third before the ball clears the pitcher I am dead if the pitcher cuts it or the secondbaseman cuts it. If I get too much trying to score when the ball is thrown I risk getting hosed at third base. I am either going to straight steal believeing that the catcher can not throw my guy out or the other team does not have confidence in playing first and thirds and is going to pump fake. Or I will just play it straight up. If the runner breaks home on the throw to second when it clears the pitchers head all the third baseman has to do is yell gone and we cut it and nail him at the plate unless there is two outs and then we get the out at secondbase. There are three plays you can use when you do not think you can get the guy stealing secondbase. Pitcher cut off and hope you get the guy with too much at third. Pump fake. And second base cut automatic. You are in alot of trouble if you dont have a catcher that can throw out runners or at least make it close enough for the other coach to be afraid that you might. As far as keeping the ball in the glove or having it in the hand I want the runner at third to see the ball. I want him to think its going. Maybe he cant tell if its not in the hand I dont know. But I dont have to worry about a transfer after the fake if its already in the hand and not in the glove. This is just my opinion if it works for you fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Halfmoonslider:
Well Teach, you may be right. I don't think this topic is going to change the baseball world. So why waste your time with "Poppycock"? Sometimes it's just better to keep your thoughts to yourself. I'll take my own advice at this point.

The topic isn't worth my time. Your criticism of me is worth my time.

I would like to add a couple of things here. In all my years of coaching HS we have never been thrown out at 3b on a first and third. We follow simple rules and practice them everyday for about 15 minutes. We have the hold play and the score play. On the hold play we take our normal secondary lead. We send the runner to second on a straight steal. When the runner on third sees the ball clear the pitchers head he gets more on his lead so he can score if the throw gets away at secondbase. Otherwise he just holds 3b. On the score play he gets his normal secondary lead and when he sees the ball clear the pitchers head he goes home runner takes second. If you hold and do not get more untill you see it clear the pitcher the catcher can not throw you out no matter what he does (fake etc). The ball is you guide. If you hold and the pitcher cuts it you just bust back and we take secondbase. Now if the catcher uncorks a throw that the runner can obviously see that it can not be cut by the pitcher he breaks as soon as (he) reads this on the score play. If the ball is not thrown by the catcher nothing happens except you take 2b. The balls flight is your guide and your only guide. You have to practice it and then execute it. Against poorly coached teams you can steal outs. Against good coached teams you will give up bags and get hurt by faking throws in this situation. As you guys can probaly tell by my lengthy posts on first and thirds it is one of pet peeves. Along with bunt d and bunt o cut plays holding runners etc. These are the areas that we spend tons of time on. These are the things that make the difference in the games where the talent level of the two teams is equal or close to being equal. None of this stuff even comes into play when you are vastly superior to your opponent or they are vastly superior to you. They win close games and championships.

Ok, so I'll add my ignorance to the topic. Why fake throw with the arm in a completed arm circle? We teach to receive the ball, load the upper body and drive through as if throwing. However, we only pump fake and don't really extend the arm. We want the body to create the illusion of throwing. Then, we shift the feet and throw to the base. In our opinion, a runner that is going is either going to check off pitcher, ss, or 2b then ball to base in a first and third or go on the throw. The first type of runner is seldom going to be caught. The second is the one we want. JMHO!

I've never thought of the fake with the ball in the glove. Gives me something to think about. One question, is there any problem with catchers getting a poor grip on the ball in their rush to pull off this play. Keep in mind, it isn't similar to recieving a ball, having a rhythm and throwing a runner out.

BTW, I think most progams have several options off of this play. The fake throw to 2nd and throw to 3rd is only one of them. We run 5 options. So, another coach can't assume that we are going to allow them to take second every time that we have runners on 1st and 3rd. I understand what others have posted about spending too much time on "trick plays." In part I agree. However, in our conference and in our area, you had better be able to defend them. We have successfully defended approximately 5 this year. There will be more I'm sure.

TR, I guess I pretty much offended everyone I mentioned in my post so I'll apologize to you as well. Didn't mean it the way I wrote it...a lesson I thought I learned long ago in writing. TR, you are the last guy I say has no guts! The problem with threads like these is that IMO there isn't really one right answer. It's a preference based upon your experience and how you train and drill your players. The conflict comes I think, when you think your way is the only way. One coach thinks this is a trick play another thinks it's an essential part of his defense, another thinks it's not worth the time. Who on this board sets themselves up as the ultimate authority? If there is one, let's appoint him and he can end all threads with his endorsement That's what is great about baseball.

Teach, got it...thanks, I think?

Halfmoon,

I agree with you, please don’t take the following as an attempt to be the “ultimate authority”. Often people, myself included, forget to put the IMO with their comments. For the record the following is just my opinion! I am not the "Ultimate Authority" on anything.

CoachB25,

I think most teams use 5 options to defend the double steal. Probably the same 5 options for the most part. The fake throw is usually one of them, probably the least used. In certain situations it is the least risky.

Coach May,

Against an aggressive team and with speed at both bases you might see the following. In fact, I’m fairly positive both Coach May and CoachB25 have seen this a few times.

Most double steals occur with 2 outs. Often with the runner at 1B stopping (run down) before he gets to 2B allowing the runner from 3B to score. If the throw doesn’t go through, he then goes to 2B. Obviously this play revolves around the situation, who the runners are, who the hitter is, the score, inning, number of outs, count, history of team you’re playing, etc. If your team is 2 runs ahead, throw the runner out, it’s probably a straight steal of 2B in that situation. If you’re 1 run ahead or tied late in the game, with 2 outs, there’s speed at 3B, slow runner at 1B and the hitter is weak… Get ready!

On this play, the runner at 3B must take off to the plate as soon as he sees the catcher throw. If he waited for the ball to pass the pitcher before breaking there is no chance of scoring without an error. The key for the runner is seeing the ball leave the catchers hand (see the throw). It is not uncommon for the runner at 3B to cheat a bit and break a bit early, before the actual release of the ball.

On a straight double steal, the best defense is to throw to the pitcher if executed properly. On a straight double steal the runner at 3B is in big trouble on this play. The offense is gambling that the pitcher is not involved on the straight double steal.

Coaches you might want to try this if you don’t already do it. It works! When we wanted to straight steal 2B with runners at 1B and 3B we would first “fake steal”. This would show the opposing teams movement or play. ie. 2nd baseman breaking in to cut position. Usually teams will stay in the same defense for the next pitch. On the next pitch we steal 2B, the runner at 3B fakes a hard break to the plate and quickly gets back to 3B. It’s a lot of fun stealing 2B with no play on the runner because of forcing the inf. to cut the ball. This takes practice to get the timing down and we practiced a lot. We won a lot, too! Sorry for the braggin, just trying to make a point.

TRHit,

The two plays with the least chance for error on the double steal are the throw to the pitcher and the fake throw by the catcher. Actually I’ve seen the throw back to the pitcher screwed up a few times. The only error that should ever happen on the fake throw is the following throw to 3B if needed. I’ve seen the fake throw turn into no more than a tag by the catcher or a run down. On the other hand, I’ve seen many errors on the various cut off plays and throws that go through. I can’t think of anything “safer” than holding on to the ball.

Of course as you coaches know, the situation dictates the importance of the runner on 3B and the importance of the runner advancing to 2B. That is why most teams will have 4 or 5 double steal defensive plays. There’s a time and place for each of them.

There are also many different types of double steals. Many of them border on “trick plays”. So from a defensive standpoint, it doesn’t make much difference if you believe in “trick plays”. You still have to defend them, like it or not!

I apologize for the length, but I love these type discussions. Got to get to work now!

In my opinion, full arm pump fakes are an important part of the game of baseball. There are several situations in which a pump fake is an appropriate, and often effective, option.

One of those situations is the one you all have been discussion--first and third steal.

Other situations in which a good full arm pump fake can be sued effectively:
--runners on 1st and 2nd, less than two outs, double play situation, when the pivot man is not likely to get the batter/runner out at 1st,
--a well executed bunt (perhaps even bunt and run scenario) with at least one baserunner already on base,
--runners on 1st and 2nd, force at 3rd, fake to 1st,
--and there are more possibilities.....

Infielders, catchers, and pitchers who do not utilize full arm pump fakes are not using all of the tools in their bags.....

Full arm pump fakes are not risky, in my opinion, and are definitely not trick plays. In fact, there are times in which it is more risky to make a throw than it is to use a pump fake!!

Do any catchers step to throw to second and snap it to third?

It might take a little practice but at least against good runners, it seems more deceptive and effective than faking the throw and then throwing to third.

SBK, snap throws to 3rd are common in that situation, but not stepping toward second and throwing to third.....that just wouldn't work against good baserunners.

grateful, thanks for reply.

Why wouldn't it work? Please explain.

It seems to work against good base runners but the problem is getting a catcher to perfect it since it does take practice.

What doesn't work against good base runners is faking the throw. First of all a good base runner should see the ball and wait to make sure the pitcher doesn't cut it off and in addition a good base runner would retreat as soon as they notice the catcher is still holding on to the ball.

The best way to defend against a pick off at third is to make sure the base runner steps in the throwing lane as soon as they know the ball will not be hit. Hence lead off in foul go back on the line. Does anyone not teach this?

SBK....

Why wouldn't it work to step toward second and throw to third? Try it and see. I have never seen anybody even try it, other than perhaps a confused younger catcher.

I have seen pump fakes work against good baserunners. That doesn't necessarily mean it is the best thing to do, but if the goal is to make sure the runner at 3rd does not score, a pump fake is significantly better than doing nothing.....there are always three or four options in that situation, the absolute worst option is to do absolutely nothing (no fake, no snap throw, no throw).

Actually we do not teach lead in foul come back on the line. We teach lead in foul come back in fair inside the line. Coming back on the line provides a throwing lane for the catcher and a good recieving lane for the 3b. By coming back inside the line you take away the throwing and recieving lanes. As far as stepping to second and then throwing to 3b how do you make an accurate throw by stepping towards second base with you shoulders pointing towards second and throw across your body to 3b. Not to mention the possible risk of injury to your throwing arm. No need to do this anyway as pointing out in all the previous posts about defending the first and thirds.

Coach May,

I teach it the same way. Coming back in fair territory closes off the throwing lane and can force a bad throw.

The problem with teaching down in foul and back in fair is it doesn't work. So why waste time on it. Throw a few more rounds of bp, or hit some ground balls......something worthy of time.

Because whenever a runner gets picked it's usually because he's not paying attention. His sudden awareness that there is a play on him leaves him no time to complete the circle.

A runner who performs the down in foul back in fair is not even going to draw a throw. Because he's not napping. If you consider that "working" so be it.

And, to say the down in foul back in fair causes a bad throw, is wrong also. The throw may have been perfect. It just hit the runner. If you're going to throw you have to throw it there or why throw.

I won't teach my catcher anything but the perfect throw.

The long and short of it is, runners get picked due to inattention or an overly aggressive gambling style lead. In either case, down in foul and back in fair does not apply. If he's got too big of a lead, or caught napping, the last thing the runner will do (hopefully) is round off his return the 3rd which slows him down.

I loved rounded runners.

teacherman,

And we were starting to agree more and more...I guess we need to define what works. You say the throw will hit the runner. To me, that works. It takes away the thrwing lane and makes it more difficult to get picked off. It also allows the runner an extra step or two in either his primary or secondary lead which gets him one step closer to the plate. If the runner knows what he is doing and the teams plays a down angle approach, that extra step or two allows him to slide under a tag at the plate.

I agree that runners get picked because they are inattentive but coming back in fair territory does work. The runner does not make a circle. He simply plants and crosses back over into fair territory while keeping his hips parallel to the base line. Now, show me a runner who shows both of his hips to the catcher (perpindicular to the baseline) and he will be a booger.

Teach,

You for the most part are dead on in hitting but you need to work on your base running. As I first started out on this subject, I recommended that base runners take away the throwing lane. Draw a line from where the catcher is to the third base, if you end up on the line or in fair territory, so be it.

The point is, it makes it difficult for the catcher to determine how far away the runner is from the bag. Kind of an optical illusion. In addition the obvious thing is that a thrown ball may hit the runner.

It takes no more time and is just smart base running.

Teach, next chance play catcher and have a player obstruct your view of the bag onece and then get out of the way. Not too tough to see why you'd want to do it one way over the other.

Gotta go, supper's on. Best regards.

..."I recommended that base runners take away the throwing lane. Draw a line from where the catcher is to the third base, if you end up on the line or in fair territory, so be it...."

Yeah, go ahead and stand in fair territory and get hit by a line drive.

..."The point is, it makes it difficult for the catcher to determine how far away the runner is from the bag..."

Maybe in little league. Anyone who has caught for more than one year doesn't have to see the exact distance to know the odds on the pick. There is a whole lot more instinct going on than measuring.

..."Teach, next chance play catcher and have a player obstruct your view of the bag onece and then get out of the way...."

I have logged more innings behind the plate than you have. Guaranteed. If the catcher needs a view of the base to know where it is he is very green, or you better find another person for the job. I hope the right handed batter stands there and blocks view. The view he's blocking is his runners view. The more he hides me the better I like it. I will throw it right by his ear (or in it if he doesn't move; which they all do by flinching out of the way when the catcher explodes and surprises them; basic instinct to get out of the way.)

Those who have never caught always think they know something. Most of the time they should keep their mouths shut.

Again, my catcher will be taught the perfect throw. He will learn when to throw which is the entire point of this exercise.

If the runner has been taught down in foul and back in fair, we're not likely to throw. But, a runner taught down in foul and back in fair is slower than a runner who runs in a straight line.

If my catcher detects napping or laziness, or the ridiculous gambling lead, we will pick. And we will be successful very often.

This play is a gamble whenever you pull it. Why do it if you haven't reduced the odds of error.