Celeb draftees

I know who you are talking about and that type of stuff really bugs the cr-ap out of me. Thanks for not mentioning the name btw.

There have been tons of "name" picks in this year's draft and the problem seems to be getting worse each year.

There are many deserving kids who may be a bit undersized or whatnot that are getting shafted by these type of shaningans.

It annoys me too but I doubt if anyone is really getting shafted by it. Don't forget that there will be undrafted free agent signings soon after the draft. One undersized pitcher we expected to be drafted last season made it to pro ball that way and got off to a good start.

Shafted is probably too strong a word but some kids have earned getting their names called on draft day imho and they will be robbed by these type of joke picks.

I hear what you're sayin'...but I really don't quite see it that way.

Parents do everything they can to get their kids summer jobs where I work (I don't...doesn't feel quite right to me). I'm just sayin' its the way of the world. Maybe not the best way? But it is what it is and I can live with it.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the majority of these "favor" picks are kids they have no intention of signing...basically just giving kids a gift instead of drafting someone they have no intention of ever using...also, don't assume all or even most of these "name" kids can't play...many of the area scouts kids or whatever are good players.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
(I don't...doesn't feel quite right to me)

Neither do I and that is my point.

People can live with things until it affects them personally. I can put myself into some of these kids shoes and feel for them. I know full well how the world works but I will never admit I am ok with it. I'll live with it "only" because I have to.

There was a 6'6" slugger from UNLV last year who earned the right to hear his named called imho. I know his Dad handled it with the utmost amount of class and grace but I still felt for the kid. I see the same thing happening this year. I know for a fact there are more deserving kids at the SoCal D1 school of note in this thread. I guess we'll just have to live with it.

BTW - none of that diatribe above is directed at you justbb. That kind of stuff has always bugged me and I am merely venting at the "ways" of the world. I feel much better now that I have let go of the stress

Thats certainly a fair point w/ regards to the young man you referred too.

I'd be a lot more concerned with taking up a roster spot at a D1 that has not had a lot of success in recent years.

I heard a former mlb player on the radio, yesterday. The host mentioned that the player's son had been drafted this year. The guy said, "yeah, that's a great honor, I guess, but we have no idea why they picked him. He's going to Big U and everyone knows it."

This is my favorite draft pick of all time. The tv news went to his house and filmed him doing layups in his driveway, car and all. (this was last pick of entire 1983 NBA draft)

He was either the team doctor for the Philadelphia 76ers or the personal physician and poker buddy of then-owner Harold Katz. He might have even been a pharmacist to another Katz holding, NutriSystem. There is no consensus among several people around then, small-print details lost to time.

But Norm Horvitz was 49 years old and stood 5-feet-10 and weighed 205 pounds in 1983. That much was chronicled that night. He was an older gentleman, rounded, a product of the intramural program at the Philadelphia College of Pharmacy as a 1956 graduate.

And he was suddenly the 10th-round draft pick of the 76ers.

I guess it does bother me and has for some time. We see so many hard working, talented and deserving young players every year that go undrafted. I really think close to 10% of the draft, averaging out about 3 picks per club, are based on politics and favoritism. I’m not talking about the former player's kid that has talent.

Over the years we have seen this happen a lot. Once a scouting director told me that a certain crosschecker’s son was definitely going to be drafted two years before the kid was eligible for the draft. We saw the kid play and he absolutely lacked the skills to even be considered a draft pick. I’m not against small, not against slow, not against lack of power, but when you combine those things in one player, that should never be a draft pick.

The kid did end up being drafted by that club. Of course he didn’t sign and went to a small college. He was drafted because of who he is, not anything to do with his baseball ability. Like I said, there are way too many more deserving players that go undrafted for this to be right. We actually see many of both deserving and undeserving, every year. Yet I have no idea how to prevent it from happening. BTW, some of these son’s of insiders are very talented and deserving. Bloodlines do count!

Maybe the problem involves the number of rounds. Each club has more picks than they really need. So wasting some late picks, doing some favors, doesn’t hurt them. BTW, some organizations tend to be more involved in this nepotism than others. I even understand it, just think it is a bit unfair.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Maybe the problem involves the number of rounds. Each club has more picks than they really need.

Ha, PG Staff, this leads to my next question.

The reason the Sixers GM gave for drafting Dr. Norm Horvitz was, "when it gets to the last round, we're pretty much just throwin' darts, anyway."

Do you (any reader) think a player is better off being drafted in the 48th round and tied to a club, or better off not drafted at all, and free to pursue what the player feels is his best opportunity?

Well if the player has early round ability he is far better off going undrafted and being a free agent for the summer. If he is a true late round type he would be better off being selected. Just being a draft pick becomes a small part of baseball history. And it can help create interest at the next level. Pretty much any draft pick will be on the area scouts follow list.

I think maybe the draft ought to be cut down a bit if teams don't feel it is a big deal to "waste" a pick.

The first part of the draft is where the teams feel their prospects are. The middle part, they begin filling out their rookie ball and short season rosters. Seems after those spots are filled, perhaps after the first 30 rounds or so, maybe the draft ought to end. bbscout used to joke (I think) that most players were drafted so the prospects would have somebody to play against. The more I am around the sport, the more I think he was not kidding.

There is uncertainty however. A team may not be able to sign its picks and then left short for the summer rosters. Seems free agency ought to be able to handle that problem nicely with some kids probably making a buck or two more than if they would have been drafted late.

Someone mentioned something about assumptions above - I never assume. Just because someone was drafted, does not mean that they can play or otherwise advance. I follow countless numbers of Mendoza line hitters in the minors every year. Similarly, some pitchers never figure out how to throw strikes and when they do, they get hit hard. They look good in their uniforms however.

Contrary to all that, I do not assume that kids who are not drafted cannot play. One could argue that 30 teams passed on them 50 times but there is group-think out there that is far from perfect. I would encourage a kid to pursue a free-agent opportunity if they believe they can play. That is the most important part of the whole equation - it starts with a belief. Lots of people tell us lots of guys can play but after the contracts are signed, it's produce or go home. Some guys refuse to be told no and refuse to give up their beliefs in themselves. It takes talent no doubt but it takes an iron will to develop it and more importantly deal with the failure that inevitably comes along with it.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Maybe the problem involves the number of rounds. Each club has more picks than they really need. So wasting some late picks, doing some favors, doesn’t hurt them. BTW, some organizations tend to be more involved in this nepotism than others. I even understand it, just think it is a bit unfair.

I read somewhere that if every player signed that was drafted, a team would be financially strapped come august.

I have no problem with an organization drafting as a good will jester towards family of former players even if the player has plans to go to college. I don't see these as waste picks, many teams don't even get to 50, sometimes. Those that really do have the talent get drafted where they should.

What about the player that tells the team he wants to play, and gets drafted, then goes off to college, that's a wasted pick, IMO. I mean everyone wants to hear their kids name called on draft day, and I don't see anything wrong with being honest about his plans (as the one above of the player going to college).

Perhaps if more players (not celeb draftees) were completely honest when they are asked, those that really should have been given a chance to go play would get the chance.

So while blaming the teams for nepotism (which I have no problem with) how about those players that just want to hear their names called on draft day and mess it up for others?

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Well if the player has early round ability he is far better off going undrafted and being a free agent for the summer. If he is a true late round type he would be better off being selected. Just being a draft pick becomes a small part of baseball history. And it can help create interest at the next level. Pretty much any draft pick will be on the area scouts follow list.

Just curios PG how many of the early round type guys really fall out? How many players typically sign undrafted contracts?

I was also shocked that Kyle Felix from Trinity did not get picked up. We only saw him once this year but he seemed like a kid with talent.

Hey - my son stuck out Kenny Logins, and Wayne Gretzky's sons in the same day I wonder if that help his status in three years?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Contrary to all that, I do not assume that kids who are not drafted cannot play. One could argue that 30 teams passed on them 50 times but there is group-think out there that is far from perfect. I would encourage a kid to pursue a free-agent opportunity if they believe they can play. That is the most important part of the whole equation - it starts with a belief. Lots of people tell us lots of guys can play but after the contracts are signed, it's produce or go home. Some guys refuse to be told no and refuse to give up their beliefs in themselves. It takes talent no doubt but it takes an iron will to develop it and more importantly deal with the failure that inevitably comes along with it.

That is so very true, there are lots of guys on teams that didn't give up I know of quite a few in son's organization. The biggest part is finding the scout to beleive in you, that's tough.

quote:

there is group-think out there that is far from perfect.

CD, Kind of off topic, but interesting observation on your part and very true in some cases. It's easier to agree than it is to disagree with the majority. Certain scouting departments do a better job of individual thinking. Twins for one!

It's interesting that even in our evaluations we become part of this process of group thinking. Anyone who follows our rankings of players knows they are always the first list put out there. We are absolutely positive that we don't have everything right, yet when all the other lists start to appear they're pretty much the same names moved around slightly in order to look original.

Always makes me wonder, if we miss a player, will another list ever have him? And we know we miss players at times. Just tells me they're not thinking for themselves and more importantly they are not actually seeing these players.

Kind of burns me... We spend millions to evaluate thousands of players and someone can read our stuff, without hardly any effort or cost, and go get people to subscribe to see their list. It is all the same names in a different order.

Our staff that predicts the draft is into the group think mentality. It's based on what they are hearing from decision makers out there. Our staff that does the high school player rankings doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks. We are basing everything off of what we see and think. These two things don't always match. Example our HS rankings had Brett Anderson ranked #2, our draft coverage predicted he would not be a first round pick. Though disagreeing, in the end both were right I guess, but one was based on group thinking, the other based on only our opinion.

The same thing happens in MLB Scouting Departments. If a well respected scout says something, GOOD OR BAD, the ball starts rolling. Before long everybody joins in and there you have it. Not enough individual thinking going on these days. Seems odd when predicting a baseball players mlb future is so very difficult.

Luckily, there are still some "ShoMe" scouts around that don't care what the next guy thinks. They don't buy into someone else's opinions. They have been around long enough that they know they will be wrong at times. And they have seen the mass thinking go wrong often.

quote:

Just curios PG how many of the early round type guys really fall out?

BOF,

There actually are some every year. Maybe more so in high school than college, but it happens in both. Not many of these types end up signing though.

I think when an undrafted high school player becomes an early pick out of college, he had early pick potential out of high school.

I could give lots of examples, but one that comes to mind is Matt Wieters. He went uindrafted out of HS and was the MVP of the WWBA tournament after that draft. Several teams tried to sign him then. He had first round ability at that time. He didn't sign, went to GA Tech and then went in the first rd 3 years later.

It's all about projecting talent. So an argument could be made (withstanding signability) that a first rounder is a first rounder. They were all in high school at one time.

Interesting discussion

I think the Twins are a fine example PG. I think the Rays are also in that category - not because my son plays for them but because I heard Andrew Friedman say they have tried to model their franchise after the Twins. There are others of course.

Obviously, a first rounder out of college should have been a first rounder out of high school but there may have been more risk involved. Sometimes the talent is not apparent to the "group" out of high school. Was Evan Longoria considered a first rounder in high school? Did Long Beach State consider him a legitmate D1 prospect in high school?

Was Buster Posey a signability issue or was he really a 50th rounder in high school? or was he a 50th round shortstop but it was not yet apparent that he was a first round catcher?

What's really interesting about these discussions is that people can cite anecdotal evidence to support any philosophy or to denigrate anyone else's philosophy. Everyone wants to find the next Mickey Mantle, draft them, and sign them out of high school. Sometimes the drafting and signing part works but the Mickey Mantle part is often elusive.

Buster was an outstanding HS student...coulda gone to Stanford, chose to stay closer to home. Probably a signability issue made him a 50th round pick...he was very good as a HS player...well known as a top prospect.

But he was also a pitcher more than anything else on the 2004 USA 18U team. Didn't play much otherwise.

Talk about the winding path twisting in just the right way...play it out!

If he woulda gone to Stanford, they had signed 2 catchers in that same year (Jason Castro (later to be a 1st round to Astros in same year as Buster) and Brent Milleville (monster hitter who had a good career at Stanford mostly as a 1B)).

Doubt Buster would have ever been moved to catcher...I believe they viewed him as an infielder more than anything else.

That decision to go to FSU opened the door for Buster and Jason Castro to both be 1st round picks. If they would have both been on The Farm, I'm not sure it would have worked out the same way for either. Maybe still very good for both, but certainly not the same.

Buster is an interesting study. We picked him, mostly as a shortstop, for the Aflac All American game after his jr year in high school. He was a shortstop/RHP.

Here is one report from 2004.

Buster Posey is a strong lean athletic 6'1/180 RHP/SS from Leesburg, GA. Posey is already a polished four pitch pitcher with excellent athletic ability. He threw an effortless 90-92 mph with a sharp, deep slider, a power curveball and an effective fading change up. He’s one of the very top pitchers in the 2005 class. We've seen him up as high as 94 mph with very good command. He's also a highest level SS with his great arm, good hands and nice actions. He shows big time hitting ability also with surprising power. At the top college in the country he is a top player immediately. It will be interesting to see if MLB clubs will draft him early as a pitcher. He's got one of the very best arms in the country, but he's not the big RHP they normally draft early. Buster is an excellent student. He was selected to the AFLAC All American Team. PG Grade: 10
Perfect Game USA's Player Rating System
10 - Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect

I thought he was a top 3-4 round type coming out of high school as either a shortstop or a pitcher. He was a Freshman all american as a shortstop his first year in college. Thanks to the coaching staff at Florida State he became a catcher the following year. At that position he became a cinch first rounder.

I'm sure, looking back at it, that the scouting community did NOT see Buster as a first round type out of high school. 50th round was because Buster really wanted to go to college and didn't beat around the bush about that. If signable at that round, he would have went top 5 rounds IMO. However, then would he be the catcher we now know? College (Florida State) was great for him!

quote:

However, then would he be the catcher we now know? College (Florida State) was great for him!

An important point.........

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
Just another point, for the FEW Busters ( and I love watching him play, and watched him in college and today) there are thousands that just want a shot.Just get their names called.Ones that have 1 maybe two special tools that can play. Maybe they arent the five tool guys, so wasted picks for the sake of wasting a pick annoys me.

You bring up a good point one that was made already but...most of us who know nothing often wonder wtf, I mean we see guys drafted who hardly played and we see those that play often and get the job done, yet all 30 teams in all 50 rounds pass on them.

Sully helped me to understand this one year when a very good pitcher who had stellar college career didn't get drafted. So I know some stuff about the pitching, but what abot hitting?

PG, as a position player, what does one have to do to get drafted? Is it power? Speed? position, hit to all parts of the field, left hand, right hand, size, need? This doesn't include signability.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
The ones who get it handed to them, does it feel the same? I wonder. I bet it doesnt.The kid who gets it all on his own with no favors, or connections, that really means something.

A very wise friend of mine told me the other day that most are not really happy on draft day. That would include those that got drafted and those that didn't.

Sounds weird but I have to agree.

Does mlb have a salary/contract structure for draft picks, like nfl, nba do? Or, is it all-you-can-get?

I accidently deleted my last post.

Great discussion though.

quote:

PG, as a position player, what does one have to do to get drafted? Is it power? Speed? position, hit to all parts of the field, left hand, right hand, size, need? This doesn't include signability.

quote:

PG, as a position player, what does one have to do to get drafted? Is it power? Speed? position, hit to all parts of the field, left hand, right hand, size, need? This doesn't include signability.

IMO
First of all, there are very few 5 tool players. Even those that are labeled 5 tool players might not be. That is because it is very difficult to accurately grade "hitting". There have been many 5 tool guys that never ended up being even an average hitter.

The actual position determines the order of importance of the tools. However, the ability to hit stands out as the #1 most important tool these days. Those considered the best hitters get drafted earlier than position players regarded the best runners, throwers, fielders. Those considered to hit and hit with power are the most coveted.

Once a player is considered to be able to hit, and/or hit with power, the other tools are used to separate prospects.

Organizational need is sometimes overrated, except when it comes to pitching. Most clubs pick the best available player in the early rounds no matter what position.

Example of the importance of hitting ability. There were at least 5 players I can think of off the top of my head, that were drafted in the first two rounds, that will switch positions. They do not have the tools to continue playing the position they played before the draft.

Some might wonder how a club can invest all that money in a player who can't play his position at the professional level. It's all because that player can hit and hit with power. He's not a better athlete, not a better baseball player, not as talented all around, as many others. But he is a better hitting prospect.

A's coach, Bob Geren, fired yesterday. His son was drafted by the A's. I've never seen him play so I'm not saying it wasn't deserved. If it's not ok to mention his name this can be deleted.

I didn't look to see what round he was drafted in but he looks like a legit draftable player for the later rounds based on the PG results (9.0 rating and sub 2.0 pop time)at least.

.
...and according to the Bay Area Regional paper...

...in addition to the son of an influental agent....

...and the managers son (who the paper says has no intention of signing as he wants to play with his brother - who he himself is another unsigned pick from the same team last year)..

....they took the nephew of one of their coaches...

....and they took the son of one of their scouts...

...and son of another one of their scouts...

now, maybe they are all talented, and I would agree that they can do whatever they want, and maybe they had picks to waste...but is it the right message to send? and should they even have to care what message they send?

44
.

Thanks PG for teh explanation.

OB44,
My fellow workers are always questioning why our boss does things a certain way, sometimes it makes no sense. A 35 year old company deep in tradition for what has worked best for them (the same model) they won't change things even in these difficult times.
I kind of see the same thing with ML teams, they have way of doing things which makes you often scratch your head, but in reality they are the ones paying the paychecks and bills and they can send whatever message they wish, regardless of what others feel is right or wrong.

I agree with most of the views in this thread.

Sure I and others would love for our boys to have been drafted even though they are not blue chippers.

However I think this was a great draft choice by the Texas Rangers of a kid who will never play.

http://www.amazinavenue.com/20...ht-thing-by-drafting

From what I've read in several articles it meant the world to this boy, who richly deserved it for his courage.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Does mlb have a salary/contract structure for draft picks, like nfl, nba do? Or, is it all-you-can-get?

All milb contracts are the same (as well as each level salary) for all drafted players as well as FA, it's the bonus that is negotiated and a seperate addendum on the contract and yes for many, it's all you can get.

Question, if your son has a college commitment and drafted and does not get the bonus he wants to give up college and doesn't sign, isn't that also a wasted pick?

Oh well, at least nobody drafted a Russian psychic.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Question, if your son has a college commitment and drafted and does not get the bonus he wants to give up college and doesn't sign, isn't that also a wasted pick?

I thought teams received some type of compensation for failing to sign players drafted in first three rounds. ??? If this is true, it wouldn't be a total loss.

I would imagine this happens more in the later rounds. Teams know a kid's number, draft him, lowball him to death, then finally say 'take it or leave it' and the kid leaves it.

I don't know if you put that on the team, the player, or the 'advisor'... or everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Question, if your son has a college commitment and drafted and does not get the bonus he wants to give up college and doesn't sign, isn't that also a wasted pick?

I thought teams received some type of compensation for failing to sign players drafted in first three rounds. ??? If this is true, it wouldn't be a total loss.

I would imagine this happens more in the later rounds. Teams know a kid's number, draft him, lowball him to death, then finally say 'take it or leave it' and the kid leaves it.

I don't know if you put that on the team, the player, or the 'advisor'... or everyone.

Yes first 3 rounds only.
I was referring to later rounds, usually organizations will draft players who are connected with someone and not really going to sign, later. But often times a player with potential falls due to signing issues, many indicate if I am not going to be drafted by the 20th, don't bother, but they still get drafted. These kids don't sign, so that too becomes a wasted pick, IMO even more so that the celeb draftees.
You have to figure that teams have already figured out their needs, they also probably pretty sure they know which prospects may sign and who won't and unfortunetly many need bodies this time of year. The cardinals have to field 3 teams in the next coming week, Johnson City, Batavia and GCL. Figure that out, that is about 80 they need and they have already let go from extended and had to deal with filling in with injuries. They most likely need most of their kids to sign. So I always see them drafting kids who WILL sign, maybe not high upside, lots of college guys who will most likely come.

Quote PGStaff
The same thing happens in MLB Scouting Departments. If a well respected scout says something, GOOD OR BAD, the ball starts rolling. Before long everybody joins in and there you have it. Not enough individual thinking going on these days. Seems odd when predicting a baseball players mlb future is so very difficult.

Good point PG, I've been thinking this for years, seen certain kids seem to get on a scouts A list and the rest follow. A couple of years ago we had a kid in the Northwest that was highly rated, he got drafted in the lower rounds, went on to school. He struggled and hasn't been drafted again. All it takes is one or two scouts to go around and say a kids isn't good at this, or has is "uncoachable" and their dreams of the pros are dashed forever, regardless of how hard they try. A good scout will at least come watch for themselves first before writing a kid off. A good friend of mine has a talented son, he was told by a local scout his son had coaching difficulties, yet he played maximum time for his college and summer coaches, never have I seen him blow off a coach.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Noticed that a somewhat undersized player from a SoCal D1 school was drafted in the late rounds. He hit .182 as a redshirt soph. His little brother was drafted earlier out of HS. No stats but from what I could tell no power and a very slow runner.

CADad,

I just read this thread, so I apologize for jumping in this late. I know the undersized brothers that you're referring to. My son pitched against the little brother in the CIF playoffs. I honestly didn't mind that the young man was drafted (it happens each and every year!), but it bothered me that he was taken as early as he did! He was on a very talented HS baseball team, and with the exception of a highly ranked/rated teammate, he was the only other player on that team that was drafted. In fact, I know of a number of highly ranked PG 9-10 players that were not drafted out of high school this year. I'm aware that a number of factors came into play, most notably with signability issues.

FWIW, the father of these two young men is actually a very nice personable guy. I spoke with him briefly during a short break in our sons game, and I walked away with a much better impression of him...compared to what we get from the media.