Chatter/deking by SS

The ump could be strrrrreechhhing the rule on unsportmanlike conduct, or verbal obstruction.

As for me, unless they swear, call the player by his name or something of that nature, I've got good old fashion baseball.

IMHO, the ump must have had another issue at hand.

As an umpire, I find it most irritating when a member of the defense does this stupid stuff. I'll usually tell him to knock it off. No rule against this, but I don't get paid enough to put up with irritations on a ball field.

Even more irritating is the shortstop who kicks dirt around on a dusty field to distract the offense. The dust has a habit of blowing in my direction. For that action, I issue a stern warning and I once followed up with an ejection when the coach came out to complain. I definitely don't get paid enough to eat dirt on a ball field.

Tallump

Why are you interjecting not being paid enough. If it's about being paid enough don't ump. Why are you issue a warning it has no impact on the game and as an ump you are trying to make an issue.

As far as I am concern. CHILL OUT!

I'm out there to have fun. I love a good baseball game with positive attitudes. I'm not there for the money and it's not a job. Therefore, it irritates me when some pissant of a kid cannot follow proper decorum and honor the tradition that is baseball. Have you ever seen a player over 18 at any level pull that kind of nonsense. No, for two reasons. First, it violates the tradition of baseball and second, if he did, the next time he came to bat the pitch would be in his ear.

I require the kids in my games to play the game with the same traditions that are required at the high levels - minus the profanity and the violence. If the leagues don't like my umpiring style, they can fire me. They don't pay me enough to make me put up with a lot of stupid BS.

Raise my pay to $250 a game and I'll let them act like jackasses if that's what they want. Until then, this is my recreation too and I'll enforce a level of conduct that allows all to have a good time, including me.

OK, but what rule are you using to eject him?

Just sounds like you're invoking your own definition of decorum and irritability to remove something that gets under your skin. I'm not saying I like it either, but eject him? Seems a little out there.

First, I've never had a kid player ever question my authority to tell him what to do, so the issue of ejecting a player for kicking dust and acting like a jackass has never come up. They quit and we go on with the game.

With regard to the one coach who decided to argue about it, I refused to discuss the issue and when he refused to drop it and go back to the dugout, I ejected him. He was ejected for failure to get off the field and let the game continue, an offense that is well within my rights to eject.

So you ejected a coach because he questioned you about something that had no effect on the game. You refused to discuss the issue because you were the jackass not the player. Your authority as the big bad ump is what give the rest of us a bad name. As a said before CHILL OUT!

Sure you can eject hom because he did not leave the field and well within your rights as an ump. But good game management should never had let that happenn the 1st place.

Youth baseball players sing songs, chant and kick dirt. Major leaguers swear and spit tobacco. Kids don't generally argue back when warned in this manner, MLB players spit in their face or kick dirt on the umpire (sometimes).

And you're calling the little kid a jackass? I don't really care for any of those things, but I still don't get it. Sounds like the umpire was making an idle threat that he couldn't really enforce to me, minus a protest.

quote:

Sure you can eject hom because he did not leave the field and well within your rights as an ump. But good game management should never had let that happen in the 1st place.

And good coaches would not allow the players to behave this way.

But just because coaches don't do their jobs, is not an excuse for me to not do mine. I have a responsibility to teach this kids proper behavior and if the league thinks otherwise, that's fine with me. Plenty of other leagues are more than willing to have me work.

I for one, have too much self respect to be a part of a program where players and coaches don't know how to behave. There is a standard of conduct that will be required of them on a high school varsity or college field and I have a resposnibility to teach them that standard. You can bet that players don't kick dirt and taunt runners at that level of play. Since it doesn't occur there, it won't occur where I work.

And yes, I do have an ATTITUDE. I also have very quiet games where everyone behaves.

Tall Ump;

Seems to me you need to get off your high horse and take a breath. I realize the air in Colorado is thinner, but I think you need to take a break and reread what you have said.

Come on down to the beach and CHILL OUT! or build a bridge and get over it. What ever your problem is it is obviously you are hung up in your uniform. GET A LIFE.

On of the best baseball umpires and football officials in our area had a wonderful way of working with the coach to handle this situation. He would quietly go over to the coach between innings and tell him that his kid is playing the game in a way that I am sure that you he would not coach him to do and it was embarrassing him a little. Any time I saw him talk to a coach this way, even if one of my kids was doing something I wasn't aware of, I saw them respond with appreciation. He told me on more than one occasion to take a player out of a football game to cool off before he would have to toss him for being disrespectful. This is how a great umpire diffuses a situation and corrects it quickly and without taking away from the game.

I agree with what most of you are saying.....an umpire's responsibility does not include teaching players about the game of baseball.

If this game is being played under NFHS rules, then the SS is guilty of verbal obstruction and the affected runner is awarded one base under NFHS rule 2-22-21 (A).

In NCAA or any league where OBR (pro) rules are used this is legal. The runner is expected to know the difference between his coaches voice and the voices of the defense.

piaa_ump - I had an umpire friend explain that to me the other day. Unfortunately, this game was being called under MLB rules (PONY Baseball). I think he just should have been told to stop it without the threat of ejection. It didn't matter, he stopped it anyways.

Good to see you back answering questions.

Justbaseball....

I read the forum often, but there is a time to let some of the "young guns" answer the questions....good to see some new umpires offer opinions.

As to PONY league, I was a crew member on the 2003 PONY World Series and have just come off working the first two rounds of this years PONY World series qualifing tourneys. The clash of local league rules and official PONY rules always brings out all sorts of challenges.....

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
I was a crew member on the 2003 PONY World Series and have just come off working the first two rounds of this years PONY World series qualifing tourneys. The clash of local league rules and official PONY rules always brings out all sorts of challenges.....

Thats cool! Yes, it DOES always bring out challenges. Many leagues have things like must-slide rules, etc... and its a shock to parents when their son gets run over at the plate.

as a pitcher i could say i'd rather have my defense talking it up while i'm on the mound then all quiet. and if my ss is messin around behind a runner and runnin his mouth as long as hes not breaking any rules i'm glad hes back there.

Tall Ump,

How would you handle this?

Runner on 1B...he is stealing...ball is hit...flyball to RF...SS acts like he is turning a DP...runner slides and gets thrown out at 1B from RF.

I assume that you're talking pro rules here. This is a legal play. No obstruction, no interference should be called. Therefore, two outs.

In high school rules, this is obstruction on the SS. Fake tags are not allowed.

TallUmp,

With all due respect, it would depend on whether the SS actually put down a fake tag. (i.e. moved his glove to the ground to simulate a tag) If the SS simply moved toward 2b with his arms outstretched as if to receive a throw from the 2nd baseman I'd stay away from the fake tag/obstruction call.

quote:

Originally posted by TallUmp:
I assume that you're talking pro rules here. This is a legal play. No obstruction, no interference should be called. Therefore, two outs.

In high school rules, this is obstruction on the SS. Fake tags are not allowed.

There was no fake tag.

If there was no fake tag, then this decoy play is legal in all rules.

The purpose of the fake tag rule was to prevent the defense from doing something that causes the runner to slide unnecessarily. In the way that this play was originally written with R1 sliding into second, I assumed that the SS simulated receiving a ball rather than set up "about to receive." Setting up "about to receive" is legal, simulating a reception of a throw is not. It's all semantics and could be the source of endless arguments.

as a 3rd base coach, when I see a bush-league SS kicking dirt into my R2 and running circles around him, I just yell out to my runner, "you're ok, you just got a bush-league shortstop behind you kicking dirt like a little baby". I make sure I say it loud enough for the shortstop to hear me. They usually "chill out" after that.

If my SS ever pulled that ****, I'd yank him from the game. That's not the way I want my players to conduct themselves...

goMo,

Not sure if your comments to shortstop are any better than the shortstops action (i.e lack of sportmanship) and more likely to increase hostility.

In regards to shortstop running cirlces around him, not sure what the problem is with that since I've seen a number of teams use this as a set play with the 2nd baseman break for the bag as SS moves away from the bag.

quote:

In regards to shortstop running cirlces around him, not sure what the problem is with that since I've seen a number of teams use this as a set play with the 2nd baseman break for the bag as SS moves away from the bag.

This is a bush league play that only works for the defense because of poor coaching by the offense and even poorer umpiring by the umpire crew.

The correct counter to this play is for the runner to take off for third base at the moment that the SS passes between the runner and third. If the runner times it properly, he can crash into the SS and draw an obstruction call from the umpire. This assumes that the umpire knows what obstruction is and how to call it, a huge assumption. Most of the time in sub varsity baseball, the umpires are too inexperienced to see and make the call. That is why this bush league play works.

You'll never see this play in high school varsity and above for the reasons just stated. BTW, in order to avoid a malicious contact call in games played under high school rules, the runner needs to make the contact with the SS a light brush by. In pro rules, he can take him out and make it look good. Fielders not in possession of the ball or in the immediate act of receiving the ball are not allowed to be in the runners basepath.

I've never thought of this as a bush league play...could be my mistake....I have seen this in high school. As long as the defense doesn't make contact and is trying to keep the runner closer to the bag to prevent a run from scoring on a single, I thought it was heads up ball as well as a good pick-off move.

Anyone else on this?

TallUmp.......I have a question for you, in part based on your explanation of the obstuction call on the shortstop in the scenario you wrote up above........

Would the same call be made if a first baseman stations himself, say 15 feet off the bag, in direct line with second base........(this could happen with bases loaded, runners on 1B and 2B, or a game that is no longer close, most likely)........and the baserunner takes off toward second but runs into the first baseman.

Seems the same to me, just curious about an umpire's interpretation and the possible consistency with the call at 2B.

Thanks.

Yes, this is obstruction. One of the number one failures that I see in sub varsity baseball is failure by the umpires to call obstruction on the first baseman for various violations that he makes.

Situation: Base hit to the outfield. Instead of moving into position to trail the runner or mvoing towards the mound for a cutoff, the lazy or uncoached first baseman stays put and gazes into the outfield. The BR has to slow up to get around him as he rounds first base. This is obstruction and should be called. When was the last time that you saw an umpire call it? Probably never at the small ball level, but it is obstruction. Umpires are not trained for this call.

The fielder may not occupy any baseline which blocks a runner if he does not have the ball or is in the immediate act of receiving the ball. For hit balls, he must have an opportunity to make a play on the ball in order to occupy the baseline.

NCDad: If you have seen this bush league play in high school ball, you have very poor coaches and umpires. I am not saying that this doesn't happen, only that it doesn't happen where coaches and umpires are competent.

quote:

Situation: Base hit to the outfield. Instead of moving into position to trail the runner or mvoing towards the mound for a cutoff, the lazy or uncoached first baseman stays put and gazes into the outfield. The BR has to slow up to get around him as he rounds first base. This is obstruction and should be called. When was the last time that you saw an umpire call it? Probably never at the small ball level, but it is obstruction. Umpires are not trained for this call.

Yes, we are. (at least in my chapter) If proper mechanics are used, the umpire will watch for the runner touching the bag at 1b and also watch for possible obstruction by the 1st baseman.

This is the reason umpires pivot into the infield. They break in and turn as the BR is touching first. He also is watching for the possible obstruction and judging whether the play is going to second or a throw back behind the runner. If there is obstruction as described it is type B, a delayed dead ball and may well be the cause of the BR not advancing to second.

NC - I don't mind calling out a bush-league play when I see it.

When a SS is kicking dirt on my runner, I'll make sure he knows how we feel. We're there to play baseball...

SS is just using a decoy....no tag involved. It is legal. You talk of old school baseball and tradition....dec's are part of that. Coaches and players should learn not to get fooled.

The SS yelling "Back" is called BUSH! Just like faking a tag.

If you read the whole thread, a SS yelling "back" is also illegal in NFHS rules...

Just my 2 cents:

SS pounding glove behind the runner......OK

SS kicking dirt behind runner in the direction of the bag.......OK also

SS actually kicking dirt ON the runner......clearly unsportsmanlike..... warn/eject.

Coach calling the SS a "bush leaguer" or a "baby"......clearly unsportsmanlike (taunting/baiting).....warn/eject.

Pilsner,

Your so nice to give a warning on taunting.
It is my understanding that taunting is an ejection.

Pirate Fan,

Not that I deem taunting to be minor but...

NFHS Rule 3.2.1 g. 2. Penalty: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense.

Also, under NFHS rules the coach in this case could be restricted to the bench for the remainder of the game and ejected for further misconduct.

The slash (/) between warn and eject in my post doesn't mean warn, then eject. It means warn and/or eject. Umpire discretion in this case.

I am a shortstop and I think that the shortstop that is doing the yelling is just being lazy. My second baseman and I are great at holding runners on and neither of us have ever used yelling back to hold runners on effectively. By running well time "stunts" (moving quick towards the base, in combination wiht glove slaps) to coincide with looks from the pitcher no yelling is necassary. This takes practice and on the team I am on we practice this with pitchers during pick off practice.

Also dekeing is a wonderful trick to have to save runs!! It is not illegal, nor is it Bush league. The rule for a fake tag was probably created to reduce injury! but dekeing is much different because it results in the same hard slide, trying to break up the dp. not with a late half slide that can hurt a player.

I have a question for piaa umpire.
I was taught, the the first baseman on a ball that can be stretched into a double is to go in line with a slightly bad turn towards second. That way it will force the runner outside, or too tight inside making him slip maybe. But tall ump said he would call it obstruction but really, you aren't in the baseline, or what should be the baseline (the runner creates his own) what would you call in this situation.

Thanks

turn two,

I'm not piaa, (nor do I pretend to be) but I feel compelled to offer an opinion here.

I understand what a first baseman is trying to do in the situation you presented. Believe it or not I used to play the game.

What you must remember is that if any fielder causes a runner to alter his intended running path it is obstruction. Whether the runner ran in any particular direction of his own accord or was forced to do so by a fielder is umpire judgement. If the umpire feels that the runner cut his turn short or made a wide turn because the first baseman was in the way he can (and should) call obstruction. There won't be any arguing or discussion that will get the first baseman out of the call because obstruction is a judgement call.