Choosing 4 over 40

The high school stands would have to be loaded with pro scouts. If not going Ivy and a pro prospect I would expect Vanderbilt, Stanford and Duke to be interested in him.

However, there was a top MLB prospect from your area. He’s in his late thirties now. He was a bright kid. He was a high first round draft pick and signed. He had signed an NLI with Florida State senior year.

After a series of injures in AAA wiped out his MLB opportunity he retired. He went to Villanova and Penn. He never lost his academic motivation despite not starting college until he was twenty-seven.

His youngest brother, not a pro prospect played baseball for an Ivy.

So many variables at play here. What other schools are in the mix, what are his academic interests, does he like school, what position(s) does he play, etc.

I may be in the minority here but there are many non-Ivy schools that are great schools and not as academically stressful or rigorous that are definitely worth consideration. schools with great educations and networks. If your kid wants investment banking or PE maybe the Ivy or NESCAC is worth it.  If he is interested in engineering or pre-med there are some schools that are more/less conducive for that. Generally the higher academic the more lenient the school is on missing some practice for school. There are financial considerations as well.

My kid loves baseball. More than anything relating to academics. I am 51 and went to a crappy college and found something I wanted to do post college and it worked out for me. I encouraged my kid to try to find a good combo of academics while giving him the best opportunity to follow his dreams and passion in baseball right now. I encourage/threaten him regularly what our expectations are for him academically and hope that works. We will see how it turns out in a couple years…

What does the other school provide him that the Ivy cannot?

@SpeedDemon posted:

What does the other school provide him that the Ivy cannot?

What does the Ivy provide him that the other school cannot?

@SpeedDemon posted:

What does the other school provide him that the Ivy cannot?

The opportunity to not get infected with Poison Ivy

I understand the allure and the appeal of going to a more "prestigious" school. I understand it may have some benefits. But for some reason people think your 40 year plan is going in the gutter if you go to an average school. There are a lot of kids who party at Arizona St, Florida State, LSU and Ole Miss who excel in life after college.

Truth is unless you're entering a field where big firms and companies with prestigious job opportunities and career trajectories are directly targeting applicants from a certain subset of schools then it really doesn't matter where you go, as long as you're capable.

Unless you're going to an Ivy, NESCAC/similar, a Duke, Vandy, Stanford, or engineering schools (CalTech), I really don't know how much the name on the degree matters.

If there were no scholarship money involved I wouldn't be in any rush to go anywhere other than a school with in state tuition. Some people prefer to pay almost 300k for a degree from a "good" private school. Their money their choice, I'll just have a hard time making sense of it.

Plenty of Ivy kids get drafted. If they have what it takes they will be "found" by scouts. It won't be as competitive as other D1 conferences but there is plenty of talent in the league.

As mentioned above, there are a lot of variables. What would be the intended major probably being one of the biggest. Is the kid that strong of a student? I wouldn't have my son reach academically just to struggle and be miserable for 4 years at an Ivy.

Ivy/top academic players get drafted and students from “not top tier schools”can be wildly successful professionally.

Attending the right academic college opens doors professionally. Attending the right baseball college opens doors professionally (higher draft position). 84% of American MLBers come from the first ten rounds.

The rest with talent can still kick down the doors. In either case the one from the right door opener is going to receive more opportunity and more benefit of the doubt.

A friend’s son was hitting .290 with 20+ homers and 80+ RBI’s between AA and AAA. When a call up occurred a player hitting .240 with two homers got the call. The dad told me there were a million reason$ the lesser proven player got the call.

From starting in sales in a major corporation out of the gate there were higher expectations of the earliest, most qualified hires. But, after extensive training it became about who produced.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Plenty of Ivy kids get drafted. If they have what it takes they will be "found" by scouts. It won't be as competitive as other D1 conferences but there is plenty of talent in the league.

As mentioned above, there are a lot of variables. What would be the intended major probably being one of the biggest. Is the kid that strong of a student? I wouldn't have my son reach academically just to struggle and be miserable for 4 years at an Ivy.

Is it any harder? Chem lab at UPenn is the same as chem lab at Penn State. History happened the same way it did at Harvard and UMass. Stats is the same course at Columbia and Stony Brook.

The hard part is getting in - you have to stand out in an application pool of very gifted students that is a significant hurdle. I have a very hard time believing the coursework is any harder once you're there. Once you're in, it is not about IQ, it is about work ethic. There are very smart kids who don't do well in school because they put in no effort. There are average IQ students who make great grades because they hit the books nonstop.

GPA is an indicator of work ethic, not how smart you are.

@PABaseball posted:

Is it any harder? Chem lab at UPenn is the same as chem lab at Penn State. History happened the same way it did at Harvard and UMass. Stats is the same course at Columbia and Stony Brook.

The hard part is getting in - you have to stand out in an application pool of very gifted students that is a significant hurdle. I have a very hard time believing the coursework is any harder once you're there. Once you're in, it is not about IQ, it is about work ethic. There are very smart kids who don't do well in school because they put in no effort. There are average IQ students who make great grades because they hit the books nonstop.

GPA is an indicator of work ethic, not how smart you are.

Yes, Penn is more rigorous than Penn St. Kids getting an A in AP physics are smarter than most kids getting an A in on level physics. Even is someone agrees with your GPA logic, the SAT/ACT will differentiate beyond GPA (I personally feel GPA can be subjective and inflated).

The admission standards at Ivies has continued to decline over the past several years. Schools like UChicago, Caltech, Hopkins, and MIT have maintained their standards and I believe will continue to replace the Ivies at the top of various rankings lists.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Yes, Penn is more rigorous than Penn St. Kids getting an A in AP physics are smarter than most kids getting an A in on level physics. Even is someone agrees with your GPA logic, the SAT/ACT will differentiate beyond GPA (I personally feel GPA can be subjective and inflated).

The admission standards at Ivies has continued to decline over the past several years. Schools like UChicago, Caltech, Hopkins, and MIT have maintained their standards and I believe will continue to replace the Ivies at the top of various rankings lists.

Admissions are absolutely rigorous, there are plenty of very bright and hard working students who do not get a sniff of consideration from the schools we are referring to. And yes, I would say it's a safe argument that the average student at a HA school is smarter than that of a mediocre school. What I'm saying is - what makes a HA school more rigorous than a state school in terms of curriculum?

Physics 101 is an entry level course wherever you go. First semester freshmen aren't taking quantum physics at Penn, it's still intro to physics. American history is the same at both schools. Honors level courses in HS are not comparable to the same exact course at two different schools. And if they're more rigorous at a HA - what makes them harder?

Like I said, the hard part is getting in. Staying in has more to do with the work ethic and motivation of the student than it does the brain capacity so to say. Son is friends with two Ivy League athletes for an Olympic sport, neither would be confused with an honors student. One was injured and enrolled in the local juco for a year before transferring back into the Ivy to preserve eligibility (common in some sports). He swears the local juco was just as hard if not harder than the Ivy. The other transferred out to a party school for his sport and claims it's harder when not everyone around you is as motivated as the kids at his Ivy were.

While the degree may be better from certain schools. I don't buy the idea that the education is better.

Ultimately my D3 kid chose 4 over 40 in the sense that he accepted an offer from the best school that actually gave him a Baseball offer and academic money.  

He could have gone to a better school and not played Baseball.

PABaseball, I disagree.   Classes at a HA are taught at a higher level.

When he was still in high school, my older son took Physics 101 at our local state university.  He went to an Ivy, and took Physics 102 there.  Then he retook Physics 101 there also.  We asked him why, he said there was no comparison in the way it was taught, and he would not be prepared for the upper-level classes (his major) unless he took the Ivy intro class.

Professors give readings and assignments that are more complex and demanding when they can expect more from the students.  The work done in groups, and the class discussions, are different.   Never mind the difference in funding and research and summer opportunities at super-wealthy private universities.

Do you need all that extra rigor?  Depends what you want to do after.  Of course a bright student will do fine anywhere, especially if he exerts himself to seek out opportunities.  Just like a great baseball player can get drafted from anywhere.  Why would a great baseball player rather play in the SEC?  Maybe because of the better teaching, more rigorous expectations, better teammates, better facilities, better competition?  How is baseball different from academics in this respect?

Despite all that, my answer to the OP would be, if he is being looked at by pro scouts already and has a high scholarship offer to a P5 school, why not go for it?  Keeping in mind all the warnings on this site, about what has happened to D1 baseball with transfers, and unless he wants to major in something the baseball coach won't let him.  He will choose what to make of his academics, wherever he is.  But if he is cut from the baseball team, he might not want to stay.

What’s the 40 year plan? Success? What is the definition of success? We have friends who have 2 daughters. One went to an Ivy to fence (turning down a full ride at ND), her sister went to a small private. The one at The small private made some great connections and graduated with an employment contract making $$$. Much more than the Ivy sister. The Ivy sister feels ripped off.  She assumed that her degree from an Ivy school would equate to higher monetary success than her sister who didn’t have it. You can be successful with a degree from any school just as you can be unsuccessful with a degree from any school. If your kid is driven enough to get into an Ivy, they will likely be fine anywhere. If going to an Ivy is important to him, obviously that’s a decision he would have to make.  If you think an Ivy is something he can’t pass up because it equates to a successful 40 year plan, I’d give your input and let him decide.  The way you word the question, it sounds like he wants the other school? A balance in life is key. If you can enjoy the ride, that’s even better.

@PABaseball posted:

Admissions are absolutely rigorous, there are plenty of very bright and hard working students who do not get a sniff of consideration from the schools we are referring to. And yes, I would say it's a safe argument that the average student at a HA school is smarter than that of a mediocre school. What I'm saying is - what makes a HA school more rigorous than a state school in terms of curriculum?

Physics 101 is an entry level course wherever you go. First semester freshmen aren't taking quantum physics at Penn, it's still intro to physics. American history is the same at both schools. Honors level courses in HS are not comparable to the same exact course at two different schools. And if they're more rigorous at a HA - what makes them harder?

Like I said, the hard part is getting in. Staying in has more to do with the work ethic and motivation of the student than it does the brain capacity so to say. Son is friends with two Ivy League athletes for an Olympic sport, neither would be confused with an honors student. One was injured and enrolled in the local juco for a year before transferring back into the Ivy to preserve eligibility (common in some sports). He swears the local juco was just as hard if not harder than the Ivy. The other transferred out to a party school for his sport and claims it's harder when not everyone around you is as motivated as the kids at his Ivy were.

While the degree may be better from certain schools. I don't buy the idea that the education is better.

One of my cousins went to Harvard. He also ran track. He said the hard part was getting in. He didn’t feel the classes were extraordinarily hard even though he was pre-med. He said when he applied to med schools he was glad he was Harvard pre-med. He went to Tufts Medical.

@baseballhs posted:

What’s the 40 year plan? Success? What is the definition of success? We have friends who have 2 daughters. One went to an Ivy to fence (turning down a full ride at ND), her sister went to a small private. The one at The small private made some great connections and graduated with an employment contract making $$$. Much more than the Ivy sister. The Ivy sister feels ripped off.  She assumed that her degree from an Ivy school would equate to higher monetary success than her sister who didn’t have it. You can be successful with a degree from any school just as you can be unsuccessful with a degree from any school. If your kid is driven enough to get into an Ivy, they will likely be fine anywhere. If going to an Ivy is important to him, obviously that’s a decision he would have to make.  If you think an Ivy is something he can’t pass up because it equates to a successful 40 year plan, I’d give your input and let him decide.  The way you word the question, it sounds like he wants the other school? A balance in life is key. If you can enjoy the ride, that’s even better.

What were the majors? That can make a huge difference in the first year comp from school to school.

Years ago I was helping a client hire some entry/junior software engineers. Target salary was $50-55k. I get this kid from Ga Tech on the phone and he tells me his minimum was $85k. I smirked to myself and thought "no way" and told him politely entry level software engineers don't get $85k. Whelp, I told the client execs about the conversation and they said they would absolutely go that high for a Ga Tech grad. They ended up giving him $90k + incentives.

There are many lists out there that show the first year and mid-career salaries from various schools. Harvey Mudd is neck and neck with MIT for the top spot in both categories. You can also find lists of graduate comp based on majors.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

What were the majors? That can make a huge difference in the first year comp from school to school.

Years ago I was helping a client hire some entry/junior software engineers. Target salary was $50-55k. I get this kid from Ga Tech on the phone and he tells me his minimum was $85k. I smirked to myself and thought "no way" and told him politely entry level software engineers don't get $85k. Whelp, I told the client execs about the conversation and they said they would absolutely go that high for a Ga Tech grad. They ended up giving him $90k + incentives.

There are many lists out there that show the first year and mid-career salaries from various schools. Harvey Mudd is neck and neck with MIT for the top spot in both categories. You can also find lists of graduate comp based on majors.

I’m not sure. The private school was investment banking, and I know that matters. I guess my point is…I”lol give another example: We have a friend whose daughter was deciding between almost full ride/full ride scholarships at Pepperdine, SMU, TCU, etc. (and they were stressed). That kid will be fine wherever she goes. The question becomes more about where she will be happy.  Back to the original two, I have no doubt, they will both end up very successful in their careers. It is how they are built. I just don’t think the name of the school they attend is really the factor.  I think a lot of kids with that kind of drive choose those schools.

School choice is complicated and idiosyncratic to each family. No inherently right or wrong answers.

My son would have had to be a likely first-round draft pick for us to move our focus up to four years (instead of forty). He was not a first-round draft pick.