Coach wrecking arms

First are you sore or does it hurt, if so you need to address that asap.

You also need to go to your parents with your concerns asap. They have the right to speak to your coach about your arm health.

If it doesn't work, head to the AD's office.

JMO.

Where are these pitcher's parents - they should be talking to the coach and/or the AD. We have had exactly the same problem in the past with our Hs coach and my eldest son and my husband and I both spoke to the him. He benched my son but it worked out for the best because it saved his arm and allowed him to pitch in college. Don't ignore this and hope that it will go away - it won't and you will all have wrecked arms.

As the mother of a son who had labrum surgery on his 17th birthday, and another son--a 19-year-old who has a slight tear in his UCL, let me tell you that NOTHING--no thing and no game-- is worth ruining your arm over.

The game will end--and the season will end--and you will need your arm for the rest of your life. Surgery and the subsequent rehabilitation is not fun.

Your parents should talk to the coach, AD, the principal if necessary. Go to the doctor and get it checked out--have him write a medical excuse limiting the number of pitches, if you have to. Do not, repeat, do not allow any coach to ruin your arm.

quote:

Originally posted by Hoovedawg:
My HS coach is very competitive, too much in my opinion. He doesn't seem to care about our (pitcher's) futures. He doesn't mind having our pitchers throw 150 or more pitches per game. He calls pitches and often calls for 75% breaking balls.

He already caused our ace stress fractures in his shoulder (due to too many breaking balls and overuse) , and now is trying to rush him back. He is also trying to rush back another guy who dislocated his shoulder not too long ago.

I agree with TPM.

First, you need to shut down and have your arm checked out.

Second, you need to talk to your parents about this situation and they should talk to your AD or principal.

Third, I have real questions about whether your coach has your best interests in mind. He probably isn't handling the other pitcher correctly and the odds are that he won't handle you correctly.

HS ball isn't worth destroying your arm over.

Well, some here might see it as a discipline issue....

Seriously, dont pitch for this guy. He is not the least bit interested in you or your health or your future.

Let me start by Not defending this coach. However Hoove, you're are making some accusations that may not be easily proven. How do you know that the coach wrecked the kids arm? We never know what causes an arm injury until a doctor says what did cause the injury. Many times they don't know the cause, only the solution. Just because you threw curves doesn't mean thats why your arm hurt. You haven't thrown in a long time, you said. You may be sore. How do you know your growth plates haven't closed, has a Dr told you this lately? He may not be your favorite, nor a smart coach, but be careful of such broad statements as, he caused a players injury, without proof that he did. Be careful of Dads and other knowledgeables who suggest that curves alone will cause arm injury. I am no advocate for too many curves, especially when some young pitchers don't throw them well.

The generally accepted "theory" among medical professionals based on research is that the overuse of breaking balls combined with too many pitches, too little rest between outings, improper pitching mechanics and lack of conditioning is responsible for arm and shoulder injuries in pitchers, beginning around middle school age.

Here is a link to current research on the subject.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/baseball.htm

You say you haven't pitched in over a year ? What is your pre season regimine like ? Are you ready to pitch or just a weekend warrior.
I agree with most of coachric's comments. There are too many unknowns in your story.
You should shut it down as you had previous elbow issues and get medical help. Too many people ready to hang the coach without some crucial information.

quote:

Originally posted by Hoovedawg:
IHe doesn't mind having our pitchers throw 150 or more pitches per game. He calls pitches and often calls for 75% breaking balls.

Sorry guys, but that is a problem.

Overall, hd, you are getting good advice.

Saw this first hand a few years back

LHP son of a MLB player


dad was the HS pitching coach

Son had throw 150 plus pitches in the state championship game in the
5th inning 5 run lead.

Game up 10 runs in the 5th. Finally took him out throw 180 pitches at that point. Team lost. The pitcher that relief the LHp shut down the team easily much better prospect. The LHP has never been the same since. They also threw to death a RHP pitcher too. No state championship either.

I think Hoovedawg has read enough to know about pitcher abuse.

I think many coaches know it too.

I sat next to a dad on the plane last week who coached his son for years (HS fall and summer included). He KNEW he was over using his son on many occassions and pitched him too long in games when tired, but he
a. loved to win
b. liked him to show off for the scouts

He actually seperated part of his muscle from the bone in the shoulder, will never pitch or play baseball again.

Thanks to all who responded.

Just to answer some of caochric's unknowns:
1) "How do you know that the coach wrecked the kids arm? We never know what causes an arm injury until a doctor says what did cause the injury."

Well the kid who went to the doctor said it was due to too many curves and overuse. He went to the doctor so I'm assuming the doctor told him this.

2)" Just because you threw curves doesn't mean thats why your arm hurt."

Well as long as I lay off the curves it doesnt get agrivated. When I throw a bunch of curves it hurts.

3)"You haven't thrown in a long time, you said. You may be sore."

This is not a "good" soreness. I have been throwing (not necessairly pitching), just not curves.

4)"How do you know your growth plates haven't closed, has a Dr told you this lately?"

I know for a fact that my growth plates are not closed and was told this by a medical professional.


I'm not arguing, just want to shed a bit more light on the subject.

I'm just repeating what others have said, but this IS one of those times parents need to be pro-active and work with the coach and AD to assure that possible collegiate futures (or the steady hands of future surgeons, draftsmen, etc) are not permanently damaged!!!

Same here Hoove. I know you've posted before and I'm sure you're not telling stories. Just be careful or as you have, fill in the blanks. There are always unknowns. I have always been an advocate for proper pitcher planning and preparation. Yes, if you are armed with that kind of info, go to the AD, or have an outsider do it. There are countless stories about overuse here. I posted about it during the L.L. world series.

Ok we are talking about coaches abusing arms but I got a story of a parent who says it's no big deal for her son to pitch a lot.

For example tonight - he pitched a third of an inning in the varsity game. He gave up a grand slam homerun for the other team to pull within one run. We pulled him after throwing around 9 pitches.

He then came back 15 minutes later to pitch in the JV game (I wanted him to bounce back and have some success so he could recover mentally) and went 5 innings. He threw around 65 - 70 pitches.

After the game I was talking to him mom and said I wanted to use him in relief tomorrow but after giving up the slam I wanted to put him back out there to get over the outing quickly and not let him have time to think about it. She tells me he will be fine to pitch tomorrow after he just threw in the neighborhood of 80 pitches in one night.

He is a freshman and has been one of our more reliable pitchers but there is no way on earth he is picking up a ball tomorrow. He will do his running and courtesy run but that is it.

Has anybody expressed concerns to the coach? He should know (politely, though) that he is way overusing his pitchers and is ruining their careers.

I'd like some opinions on what I saw within the last couple of days. My son a freshman LHP pitcher throws about 75 pitches in a game on Tuesday and then is brought back on Thursday and throws another 110 or so. Isn't this too much? They don't throw bullpens in practice so it's pretty much games only. Aslo the weather was cold and rainy on Tuesday and extremely windy on Thurs but not as cold. Each game was against an opponent contending for a league title. If it was too much what should a parent do?

Here is an article that is posted on the Southwest Ohio League's website regarding pitching:

http://www.leaguetime.com/leaguetime/League_Forms/2007/...event%20Injuries.pdf

I think that some coaches don't know any better regarding pitching. Maybe you could send an anonymous copy of this information to your son's coach. If things don't change you have to speak up. Your son's health depends on it.

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
My son a freshman LHP pitcher throws about 75 pitches in a game on Tuesday and then is brought back on Thursday and throws another 110 or so. Isn't this too much?

This is definitely too much.

No pro pitches this much, so why is it OK for a HS pitcher.

I could see a guy pitching an inning of relief on Thursday, but not another game.

There are limits to what you can do.

If it was my son, I would consider having him intentionally pitch bad during warm-ups (and/or complain of excessive soreness). The fact that the team doesn't have enough pitching isn't reason enough to destroy your son's arm.

Perhaps the kid should speak up


Saw a story the other day where the coach was talking how he had his pitching set up for a key game and unknowingly found another arm---his ace was set to close the game but the player told the coach that his arm was not good--sore and tight-- so the coach scratched him and went to another arm and still won the game

What a novel idea TR.

A player has to speak up. I can remember several times my son and his teammates said they weren't ready. He just did it in college. Every pitcher wants the ball but you should know your body and what your limits are. Every coach I have know always asks if you want the ball. They ask before every inning and sometimes during the inning. Teach your son to say no and not to wait until it hurts. A tired arm is an arm waiting to have a problem. Your mechanics break down (elbow drops) and that is when you have a problem. My son's ability to say no is one of the reasons he has never had a problem. A serious pitcher needs the advice and reinforcement to say no.

Good Eye said: I think that some coaches don't know any better regarding pitching.
____________________________________________________

This is primarily the problem at all levels of baseball. Coaches are usually tactile in approach to learning, not cerebral, thus they do not believe the scientific/medical data about the proper use, mechanics and conditioning required to get a pitcher's arm ready to throw. Nor will they read anything about it.

Just think. if that were not so, then why are so many arm injuries occuring at every level of baseball? Just look at what happened recently with the NY Yankees. Conditioning coaches fired for poor quality control of their own program.

Throwing conditioning is a cumulative exercise that requires programmed incremental development. Lack of throwing is just as damaging as to much.

Other reason why our young pitcher damage their arms is because they don't know how to warming up properly before the game, or when send to the bulpen to pitch in releve. That is why they have to throw a lot of pitches in the first two innings of the game. Then, having runners on base, they want to overthrow and when they are trying to pitch with over effort with an arm not ready to pitch yet, of course that arm it will suffer.

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
Other reason why our young pitcher damage their arms is because they don't know how to warming up properly before the game, or when send to the bulpen to pitch in releve. That is why they have to throw a lot of pitches in the first two innings of the game. Then, having runners on base, they want to overthrow and when they are trying to pitch with over effort with an arm not ready to pitch yet, of course that arm it will suffer.

What about the player who is required to pitch in relief and is brought in "cold" from his position on the field ... and gets only the maximum number of "warm-up pitches-- six....especially at the beginning of the season when it is cold????

It happens often.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
A player has to speak up. ... Every coach I have know always asks if you want the ball. They ask before every inning and sometimes during the inning. Teach your son to say no and not to wait until it hurts.

I know at least a couple if pitchers who said NO and that was the last time they ever pitched, and not because of injury. It depends on the coach.

quote:

A tired arm is an arm waiting to have a problem. Your mechanics break down (elbow drops) and that is when you have a problem. My son's ability to say no is one of the reasons he has never had a problem. A serious pitcher needs the advice and reinforcement to say no.

A serious pitcher or ANY PITCHER needs the support from the coach--head coach or pitching coach-- to be able to say NO and know that he will be called upon to pitch again.

quote:

Originally posted by play baseball:

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
Other reason why our young pitcher damage their arms is because they don't know how to warming up properly before the game, or when send to the bulpen to pitch in releve. That is why they have to throw a lot of pitches in the first two innings of the game. Then, having runners on base, they want to overthrow and when they are trying to pitch with over effort with an arm not ready to pitch yet, of course that arm it will suffer.

What about the player who is required to pitch in relief and is brought in "cold" from his position on the field ... and gets only the maximum number of "warm-up pitches-- six....especially at the beginning of the season when it is cold????

It happens often.

Most brought in from the field to relieve an inning or two are basically warmed up (or should be) unless they have been standing out there doing nothing.

How about the pitcher that has just thrown 80 pitches and steps into another role!

I never really liked it, so we told DK in HS, one or the other.

You all must teach your son's when to say no very early on, of course that means a legit no, if the coach is then penalizing him for saying no, well than in that case, the parent has every right to speak to the coach about it (if the player cannot). Parents have the right to speak up when protecting their players (any) arms. In these instances parents are 100% right!

My son was asked to start a game in college and he told the coach his arm was still tired from a game 4 days prior. He was put in in relief and was having agreat outting and then after 2.1 innings he started to fold. The announcer commented he was obviously running out of gas.
The point is he knows his limits. He is a 5 day pitcher. There was no way he could give the coach what he needed that day. He was not benched and any coach who benches a player for speaking up is not a coach to play for. You have choices and going after the coach is not one of them.

At the end of the season I have no problem with an organized complait to the AD but not during the season.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Most brought in from the field to relieve an inning or two are basically warmed up (or should be) unless they have been standing out there doing nothing.

It depends on the way the game is going-- and how the inning is going--if a pitcher is throwing nothing but balls for walks--multiple walks, then the fielders are standing around--not doing much. This happens often.

But a pitcher from a bullpen warms up differently than a position player coming in to pitch.

quote:

How about the pitcher that has just thrown 80 pitches and steps into another role!

This is silly, too.

BobbleheadDoll,

I am referring to high school players. High school players who may be in programs that don't have many resources, such as "pitching coaches" or even actual baseball coaches--instead of the guy who coaches the baseball team who is a teacher within the building and also coaches football and is looking to make some extra money. Granted, it's not a lot.

I am referring to high school baseball teams that don't have much of a "pitching staff"-- in some cases, three real pitchers are a luxury. The high school baseball teams which don't have a very deep "depth chart"--maybe 20 guys on the team total. These are the players who must be especially careful to not let a coach overuse them. These are the players who need to be able to say "Coach, my arm hurts. I can't pitch today" without fear of the coach's wrath--or him saying "I'm sorry, but I need you today. Can you give me at least 4 innings? And then the kid does because he believes that he "must". And then it pops, or stretches.

And I am referring to high schools who have trainers who may not know much about the muscles and other body parts as it relates to baseball--because they were hired primarily to treat football injuries. And when faced with a baseball injury, the trainer doesn't just "diagnose" the injury as "tendinitis" because that is an easy diagnosis or they don't know any better...and then treats it as such, and doesn't recommend that the kid go to see an othopedic doctor....but wastes valuable time with treatments for tendinitis.

In another threaad I stated that if you have a good coach you are blessed because, in my opinion, a good coach is a blessing. Treasure him.


Note to all players with working arms: Take care if it. It belongs to you. You need to use it for the rest of your life.

I was referring to all pitchers and specifically to young pitchers.
You teach them long before HS to say no. Do you think my son was not pressured ? I am not sure what the teams situation has to do with your saying no. He learned to say no as soon as he started pitching. He did have great instruction and great medical care. I just can't remember a coach not asking him how he felt before he went out to the mound.
If you can't say no in HS how are you going to say no in college. In college you work your way up and it is harder to say no. What good are you to the team if myou are injured ?

PB,
I understand your frustration, but BHD is correct. Youngsters have to be taught early what the difference is between what is sore and what hurts and learn to say no if they have any doubts. Though not all coaches are the best coaches, they haveno idea how a pitcher is feeling, and after every start or relief appearance a smart coach should ask, how do you feel? If there are not enough pitchers, the coach HAS to find a way to get more arms to work. I know there are limits in HS, it's very difficult. That's why we as parents have to be pro active.

Trainers should never diagnose an injury, that is not their job and a trainer that is certified should know better, whether he/she is working baseball, football, baseball, softball, track.

My son has an excellent trainer, but as soon as someone doesn't feel right or someone gets injured, the doctor is immediately consulted.

We are exagerating a little bit here. How many HS coaches are out there that obligated a pitcher to pitch after he says he has a sore arm?

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
We are exagerating a little bit here. How many HS coaches are out there that obligated a pitcher to pitch after he says he has a sore arm?

I don't think that is the point. The point I was trying to make, a coach doesn't always know what a pitcher is feeling, if the pitcher doesn't feel right, he needs to not be afraid to tell him.

Again, a good coach should make it a practice to ask his pitchers how they feel the next day. This encourages positive communication. The pitcher knows the coach has concerns and will not be afraid to speak up. JMO

TPM
You are right the kid have to tell the coach, that way he knows.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
PB,
BHD is correct. Youngsters have to be taught early what the difference is between what is sore and what hurts and learn to say no if they have any doubts.

I agree. And that is the reason that I posted my "note". For the players to understand that it is their arm. It doesn't belong to the school. They need to take care of it because the coach may not know enough about it.

quote:

Though not all coaches are the best coaches, the coach HAS to find a way to get more arms to work.

You bet. That's the reason that Little League International has mandated maximum pitch counts for this year. Because even the Little League coaches, the dads or moms, didn't find a way to get more arms to work. If coaches found ways to get more arms to work, we wouldn't be reading the horror stories here about kids pitching 100 plus pitches in a game. And then going back in to pitch the next day.


Sadly, not every high school district places a lot of emphasis on baseball. In fact, at my local high school, the AD would be delighted if baseball would just go away. More time for football training via the track team. Without summer baseball there would be no conflicts with football's 7 on 7. They could lift weights to their hearts' desire. Build those biceps and forgot about the forearms.

quote:

I know there are limits in HS, it's very difficult. That's why we as parents have to be pro active.

But then there was the recent thread asking whether parents are always wrong, and the consensus appeared to be "yes". That under very few circumstances should a parent even TALK to a coach.

quote:

Trainers should never diagnose an injury, that is not their job and a trainer that is certified should know better, whether he/she is working baseball, football, baseball, softball, track.

You're right. But they do "diagnose" injuries. If a high school trainer usually is involved with injuries common to a particular sport, let's say football, when they come across a sore elbow which is not typically a football injury, they are not as familiar with what to do with it because they don't come across it very often. They may have been learned about it, but don't have much experience.

quote:

My son has an excellent trainer, but as soon as someone doesn't feel right or someone gets injured, the doctor is immediately consulted.

Again, I'm not talking about top level college programs. I am addressing high schools. Perhaps Midwest high schools, or maybe just the high school that my children attend. It's really all I have experience with.

Wouldn't it be nice if every coach was a "good coach"? That the coach would not allow the pitchers to pitch too many balls, that he would allow the relief pitchers to warm up properly, that he would just take the pitcher out instead of asking if he wanted to come out, if he could identify the pain in a pitcher's face while he is pitching (when the spectators can notice it),


We have had just the opposite experience. And it has had absolutely NOTHING to do with playing time.

A kid definitely has to know how to say no and my son does. However, in this past situation he was feeling fine and could have gone on in "his" opinion. Then though how much is too much. He threw 183 pitches in a 48hr period. That to me is just wrong and even though there are no immeadiate effects, how about the long term? We just don't know. The good coaches I believe have strict pitch counts and adhere to them regardless of how a kid says he feels. A coach needs to be able to tell a kid great job but your done. It doesn't matter who you're playing or what is at stake if you can't win with another pitcher then you didn't deserve it anyway. The kids health should always be top priority.

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
We are exagerating a little bit here. How many HS coaches are out there that obligated a pitcher to pitch after he says he has a sore arm?

Who is?

I don't know how many hs coaches are out there that obligated a pitcher to pitch after he says he has a sore arm. I know of at least one coach who has on more than one occasion. I would imagine that there are more.

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
The good coaches I believe have strict pitch counts and adhere to them regardless of how a kid says he feels. A coach needs to be able to tell a kid great job but your done. It doesn't matter who you're playing or what is at stake if you can't win with another pitcher then you didn't deserve it anyway. The kids health should always be top priority.

Excellent points.

PB,
Regardless of whether a parent or coach is right or wrong (the other topic), when it comes to a players health, don't ever be afraid to speak up.

The point about son's trainer, he's very good but not so good as to play doctor. The trainers job is not to diagnose (if there is a problem). In HS, son had a sore arm, trainer 9a woman I might add ) told him to go to the doctor asap.

I know your situatiom if it was my pitcher, that trainer would be toast!