Coaches be honest on this one

quote:

Originally posted by RB National Coach:
...High school baseball is essentially rec league level in most places...

And the biggest reason is coaches who aren't qualified. Because they lack qualification, they lack experience, they lack knowledge of the skills, they lack evaluation ability....so they play any one that makes sense to them even though it makes little sense to anyone else...which means kids lose respect for the coach and the game.

A repeating cycle that leads to the best players concentrating more on their select team than their high school team.

RESULT: dumbing down of high school baseball.

Linear,

Lots of things go wrong (deserved or undeserved - fair or unfair)

The trick for the player is having the will and "internal fire" to rebound from them.

A better trick is for adults to do the right thing at the time.

Linear..
no doubt. In our school district the teachers have the right of first refusal for any coaching positions. We had a freshman baseball coach who knew (o). Never played the game but it was an opportunity the district gave him to suppliment his income $$$.

Linear,

Agreed. But - the reality is that doesnt happen in some instances.

Thus - you as a player are left with a decision.

Do you go out there - and bust your gut - or do you let it go.

If there was a "coaches evaluation squad" who watched games and practices of all high school coaches, 75-80% could be tried for fraud.

And, it's the administrations fault as much as the coaches.

Coach May

I wish you were my son's coach. I know it is hard to discuss but it is the reality at our school and has been even before my son arrived. It sounds like this is a fairly common problem at other schools too based upon this thread. My son may be young but he is not stupid. He is fully aware of what is going on and does not and will not use it as an excuse. In fact, it is motivation to work even harder. He works year round on his game, one of only 2 or 3 players on the team that do.

I'll tell you what I'm going to do. Nothing! My son loves to play baseball and I'm not going to do anything that could make his high school experience less enjoyable. Knowing this coach, I think any conversation I would have with him would have a negative effect. The fact is, my son earned a varsity letter as a freshman (with minimal playing time) and all the hs coaches seem to like him so I think he'll get his opportunities in the future. I would just like to see the team be more successful.

Thanks to everyone for the spirited discussion. I just wanted hear other viewpoints and experiences since this is our first experience with high school baseball.

Maybe in your area HS baseball is like rec ball. You come around here and see for yourself. In fact how many HS games have you ever seen outside your area? And when is last time you have been to a HS practice outside your area? Now how can you put all the apples in one basket? Coaches , players , teams etc. Just because its rec ball and daddyball in your area you assume it is like that everywhere? HS baseball around here is taken very seriously and is played at a very high level. How many HS coaches do you actually know? The one your son played for? How many?

Linear,

That still means nothing to the player. The player in a situation like that has a decision.

Does he give 100% every day - and become as good as he can be - or does he give up.

That is the real relevance of this issue IMO.

Its like being in quicksand - when you fall into it - you dont care about its molecular construction - you just want to do your best to get the h*** out of it.

Coach

I've told you before that I don't put you in that category. Lighten up.

But, I also don't believe you're completely honest about HS baseball in your area.

In every state or region there are a handful of teams that win every year. And then there are the rest.

Thank You Missouri Dad I appreciate that. My oldest son had it tough in football in HS. He won 4 games in four years. The coaching was not the best. But they did the best they could. He was approached many times by other HS coaches in the area about moving schools because he was a really good player. He was loyal to his school and his teamates. Very few of them worked in the off season. He still did. He is in college playing football now just finished up his freshman year. No excuses just keep working hard and learn from the experience. Ones things for sure he is hungry to win.

Linear,

I have only lived here for a couple years - but I can tell you that isnt the way it is around here - (The Charlotte Metro area).

Alot of very very competitive teams - with changes each year.

Mizzu bbdad,

I think that is the best approach you can take. Things always have a way of working out for the kid who busts his butt and keeps his mouth shut. If he is young, be patient.

The fact of the matter is there are bad coaches at all levels. Most imo are good people trying to better your sons experience.

Coach May,
It's amazing how your coaching extends beyound the diamond into lifes lessons..

Linear Im not upset I hear you. I am being honest but let me break it down like this.
#1
There are the bogus programs. Coach has no clue does it for the little money he gets and goes through the motions and has little or nothing to offer the kids.
#2
There are the average programs where the coach played some ball has some knowledge and works hard from Feb to May during the season. Kids will have a decent year now and then depending on the talent level that he accumulates not develops.
#3
There are the other programs where the coaches know the game and are always striving to learn more. Work at it all year and work for their players year round. Win year in and year out because they develop their players.

Most of the programs in our area fall under the second and third scenarios. And yes there are the programs in the first scenario. Percentage wise I would say around 25% fall under #1 state wide. That is unfortunate I agree.

Linear you are right about some of the coaches and programs but not all of them.

Got an example of someone who stands by his strong convictions on playing the best nine.

Won't call names but met him a good while back and watched him change schools/jobs at least a dozen times during the fifteen years I had the privilige being around him.

Played deserving players that exhibited best skills, year after year. Was always amazed at how he would always find another job, year after year. Talk about faith under fire>wow!

Almost forgotten about ole hubcap(coaches nickname)until this week when my former college coach asked me about him.

The strange thing about it, Luke Wrenn just called me from Lakeland, FL and also asked about him.

Just goes to show that the professional baseball people who recognize this loyality to the true players that exhibit the best skills
don't forget. Stand for something or fall for anything. Play the best nine always and give every player a fair opportunity to win one of those positions.

IMHO,
Shep's Moment of the Day
Great input Coach May>ck your pm box

Little doubt the situation described is the most difficult one to address, from any perspective, whether it be the player, coach or parent.
Our son confronted this once...in 8th grade varsity basketball. Since he had been the MVP of the same team the previous year, his not playing was a mystery to many. Decided not to just sit back and take it but also knew there may be things going on that couldn't be seen by going to 1-2 games per week. My wife and I discussed it and finally talked to the coach. Instead of confronting him, we asked the coach to sit with our son...and explain to him what he needed to do and how he needed to improve to get more playing time. Coach seemed not to be offended but it was clear he got the point. He never talked with our son but playing time did improve some. BTW, son never played basketball after that. Personally, I question an approach which is confrontational with a coach unless you have at least the same information base as the coach. As a parent you can make the point for your son by an approach where the coach has to communicate and coach your son, both of which fall within the mutual expectations.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
...#3There are the other programs where the coaches know the game and are always striving to learn more. Work at it all year and work for their players year round. Win year in and year out because they develop their players...

I don't care what they get paid. Until 80% or more are in category #3, they are hurting kids.

You nor I could look ourselves in the mirror if we were in category #1, or #2.

A couple of years ago we were playing a team at our place. The team we were playing is a traditional weak program that was in our conference so we had to play them. During warm ups and infield I noticed a little cf for the other team. He busting his butt going after everthing. The other guys were just going through the motions like always. During the game I noticed how this kid battled at the plate. He ran on and off the field. The rest of his team could have cared less they walked on and off and the coach was a joke as well. After the game I went over to this kid and was going to tell him how much I appreciated his approach to the game. He told me before I could say a word "Coach I would do anything to play somewhere like this." Man I had to hold back the tears in my eyes. I told the kid to keep his head up and to continue to play the game like he did. I made some calls for the kid and he ended up signing with a D-2 out of Va. I still have contact with him. Sometimes you cant do anything about the cards your dealt but you can sure play the hell out of the ones you are dealt. Great lesson here folks.

Linear,

And until 80% or more are in that category - the player still has to learn how to deal with it - get better - and move forward.

Regardless of what Mom and Dad do.
IMO.

Linear I agree with you 100%. I have not and never will defend these people. What can I say you are right. Believe me it makes me sick to see what some of these guys do to kids opportunities. But look at my other post.

I feel the tears.

That is a great story and all too true.

You are SUPPOSED to help those kids.

That is much better time spent than railing about the bad aspects of coaching in high school.

After all - it isnt about the coaches - its about the kids. As Coach May so ably demonstrates. IMO.

1977. Just graduated from college in August. Started first teaching job in late August at a small school with no sports tradition. It was my first coaching experience: jv basketball. No biggie.....or was it.

I had no one taller than 5'10". Had one kid who could make a jump shot. And 9 others who were quick and hustled.

We played "Bobby Knight" man to man defense and we put the opponent through 32 minutes of hell every game.

Our defense was our offense. If we didn't get a layup we were in trouble.

We finished second in the conference tournament taking a team that was 6'-6'2" across the board to double ot before losing by one point. We had a shot to win but didn't.

I'll never forget those kids eyes as they started to believe in themselves. 10 little pit bulls.

I refused to let them "settle for".

I found a better job in the town I wanted to live in the next year. Took it.

JV basketball coach again. Again, no sports tradition. Good starting 5. Not much depth. But the depth knew they would play if they played defense.

Record 6-2 when I pull the starting 5 for not hustling. They had given up 25 points in the first quarter. Put in subs. Game ended 52-36. Subs gave up 27 points in 3 quarters.

I got fired immediately after the game.

Parent complained. I got fired.

Same coach, same tactics, two different towns.

25 years later, we move to the school district where that happened. My son is going to the same school. His best friend's dad is one of the subs that got to play that entire game. Haven't seen him for 25 years. He comes up to me with tears in his eyes and says....."you got a raw deal".

He knew that he was getting the "whole deal". Not partial......and he appreciated it.

Linear,

In any sport - that is what you are supposed to do.

Whether you are a coach or a player.

You play until you drop.

That is why "sports" are so appealing - and so great IMO.

Back to the original issue, Missouri-BB, perhaps the coach would appreciate your son approaching him with a question, "what it would take for me to get regular playing time?", as opposed to, "why don't I get to play more?" type of a question.

In that way, at least he is asking an open-ended question that the coach could address with specifics.

T-Bird Dad:

Good point.

Actually - the original issue was whether or not Dad should talk to the coach - because Dad thinks the coach stinks.

So I do think many of these posts are very relevant.

However - It goes without saying that a player can have a talk with the coach. Why not?

T-Bird
Thanks for the advice but the coach made it clear to the boys that question is off limits. That's the type of coach we're dealing with. I'm not sure the softer question would fly either.

Here is what your son needs to say to the coach. Believe me I know about this. Hey coach do you have a minute to talk. Ok when would be a good time for me to talk to you. Ok thanks coach. Coach I want to play. What do I need to work on in order to get more playing time? Is there anything Im not doing that is keeping me out of the lineup? Coach Im willing to play of inf anywhere I can help the team. Thanks for your time coach. Now the coach has to explain to the player what he needs to do in order to get more time. The coach has to explain to the player what he needs to work on. Some coaches might think that the kid has resigned himself to sitting on the pine if they dont speak up. Refuse to be put on a shelf. Refuse to be put out to rest. Refuse it PERIOD. Make sure the coach knows that you are going to do whatever it takes to get on that field and you are not going to just sit there with your thumb in your mouth. Worry the hell out of him and make him play you. Bust your butt , out hustle everyone else to the point that you embarrass everyone else if you have to. Make him look like a joke if he doesnt play you. Of course you have to be one of the best options. But you have said he is so that shouldnt be hard to do. I say prove me wrong to kids. Prove me wrong and I will play you. Prove me right and you will stay right where your at on the bench. The first time someone doesnt run out a pop up or ground ball guess whos name is going to pop in his head? The first time someone is late for practice or gets in trouble at school guess whos name is going to pop into his head? REFUSE TO BE ON THAT BENCH. DONT EVER GIVE IN AND ACCEPT A FATE YOU DONT BELIEVE IS YOURS. My attitude is I want a kid who will not give in. I want a kid who calls me a MF under his breath when I dont play him and is willing to show me that he deserves to play. The last thing I want is a kid that is going to give up the first time things dont go his way. SHOW ME. As you can tell this fires me up. I love a little attitude in my guys. I want a little fire. I want a kid who wants to prove me wrong. I love it when they do.

you don't need a catcher do you?....

I'm a little old....

....how about your summer team.

missouri bb dad.

lots of good advice,imo hs kids are young adults we trust them with our cars,send them out to work etc. trust him with his future.coach mays post was a great idea.i don't think parents are well recieved by coaches as a general rule.if this coach is playing favorites he knows it,thats not easy to explain to anyone much less a kid.
i look at it like a job. would you go talk to his boss if he had lousy shifts?it is the hardest thing to watch your kids get the shaft,but we as parents shouldn't let those emotions over ride us.many life lessons in sports this might be one that he stands up for what he thinks is right.
i'm not sure there is a right answer to this problem.but i know there are alot of wrong ones.good luck in your sons season. i hope everything works out for him.

quote:

I think a hardworking good kid who does all the right things will often play over the more talented kid who doesn't give it his all, all the time. Why? Because I know I can count on that kid, while the self-proclaimed SuperStar may let me down because of his lack of discipline.

You make my point, too. So you are saying the kid with the most baseball talent doesn't play on your baseball team because of a whole bunch of things that aren't baseball-related.

Coachric made the point that most of us parents have seen for years and years...A COACH WILL PUNISH A KID, BECAUSE HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE PARENT. Been there, done that.

It was wrong when it happened and it is wrong every day of the week!

So much of it is political and personal. The best coaches put the the best nine on the field and manage to remove themselves from the emotional issues around the team, treating everyone the same like "it's just business".

Everything usually stays cool when coaches coach, players play, and parents parent. Conversely, everything usually goes down the tubes when any of the three try to assume the others roles.

Plenty of good advice given here. If the boat is headed for the rocks, turn the rudder, head for smooth waters. In high school baseball it is just that simple.

My sons school hired Coach Dolt his senior year. I knew it and came close to transferring him. Wish I had and Jr. does too.

I'm just glad I was a part of this post. Really alot of amazing examples and great advice. The Coaches May and Merc were their usuall solid selves, but Linear, hey I thought many of your posts were flaky, but in just a few paragraphs you've shown that you are the real deal man. I have been on all sides of this discussion as a player, parent and coach. I would like to think that I have approached each situation with fairness. As a player I worked my butt off for playing time. As a parent I expected my son to do the same and if he felt he wasn't treated fairly, then I wanted him to work harder and ask the coach what more he could do. As a coach I didn't get much daddy-ball until L.L. I coulnd't believe some if the incredibly pushy parents I've run into. I had always played and coached at a higher level, but I may have learned alot more at the youth league level. In our area high school ball is taken pretty seriously, and you can alway tell the teams that don't, as it shows from the coach on down. Its about 10% here and about 40% of the teams have experienced coaches that have been around and play hardnosed baseball. Fairness it all perception though. I would sometimes remove a talented kid late in a game where we were on top and get a sub some pt, but the talented kids folks were in the stands calfing. It wasn't fair to them. I have always believed that if a kid shows up, I mean really shows up and work and hustles and shows good attitude and works well with his teammates, he's going to get his share of pt. Keep this great stuff going as we are all learnng from each other.

Boy is this an often recurring circumstance!

My son has been in this situation a few times in sports. I think it was hardest for me when he was real young, 9-10 years old. At that age I couldn't expect him to approach the coach on his own.

His 7th grade year in basketball he had a coach who played him very little, and in the opinion of most of the parents (including me) he should have been on the court a lot more. He was quite upset.

I suggested he ask the coach what he could do to get more playing time (much like coach May's suggestion.) My son did it. Coach fed him a bunch of BS, and nothing changed.

Nothing improved all season. I didn't intervene, though my son and I spoke about the issue all the time. I told him that this was something he would face again and again as he continued to higher levels in sports.

I told him I knew how frustrating and unfair it was, but that there is a lot he could take away from an experience like this - spending most of the time on the bench when he knew he should be playing, and still remain a positive influence on his teammates, practice hard, and not let the unfairness change his attitude.

For the most part he did just that. Yes, there was a lot of complaining, mostly after games when he'd get his 5-8 minutes. The season was not fun for him, but I was proud that he didn't mope around and let it get him down.

He learned, I think, that he can't let things he can't control affect him. Adults and coaches aren't always fair.

I do think that the experience made him stronger. Next time he has to sit when he thinks he should be playing (and it might be in baseball next time) he will draw from it, I am sure.

So, I would encourage Dads NOT to intervene. Counsel your son how to handle it, and don't expect that it will get better. If it doesn't get better, realize there are valuable strengths that can be gained even from having to suffer through an entire season where he is unfairly warming the bench.

As my son is nowa freshman in HS, I wouldn't dream, at this age, of asking a coach about playing time. But I don't have to - my son knows exactly what to do, which is pretty much what Coach May's post outlined.

Wow, this is a great post.

I’ve seen both sides of the fence. One good example of this happened last year to a kid on my son’s football team. The football coach was also the wrestling coach. One of my son’s friends had tried & quit wrestling on two different occasions. Because of that, I think that the coach didn’t believe the kid had heart. Even though the kid was a pretty good receiver and practiced well, he split time with a younger receiver who wasn’t as good.

In the 2nd round of the playoffs, the kid had a great opportunity to see his favorite major college team play. He decided to go see the game rather than play for his team in the playoffs because “they don’t need me.” On the one hand, he was right. He was snubbed because of (evidently) something that had nothing to do with the football season. When you got right down to it, he had a good case for saying that the coach treated him unfairly. However, whether it was self-fulfilling prophesy or not, the coach was right and it was prudent that he didn’t count on the receiver because he abandoned the team when it mattered.

Right now, my son is going through a bad 8th-grade basketball coach. He plays kids at the wrong positions, gives 2-4 min./game to non-starters, cancels practices, sends no paperwork home (I don’t even know his first or last name & neither does my son!). One kicker was that he held no practices from 12/22-1/3, then punished the kids with sprints, sprints, sprints because they weren’t fast enough on their 1/5 game. Some of the starters screw around in practice (& do some dirty moves in scrimmages), so the coach gets furious & makes everyone run sprints, yet never cuts playing time for the troublemakers. I haven’t said anything, but I’ve been trying to help my son get to the Y to shoot, I’ve gotten him over to play some church-league ball with adults, etc.
I'm trying to keep him positive and to keep improving.

More examples of bad coaching, high school level.

My daughter is a freshman in high school. Very athletic. She has won a state championship (jr. high) in the triple jump and long jump. Plays s****r and basketball and NO ONE out runs her.

Very athletic.

I have a basketball coaching background. I know what I'm looking at and what isn't getting done by her coach.

My daughter doesn't like me coaching her. Long story.....Whatever.....so I lay off and just try to be dad. My sons loved to be coached by me, she doesn't. And, if you have a young daughter.....that settles it.

So, I go watch the games. She has no clue what an "athletic position" is. She has no clue how to deny a penetrating pass. She has no clue how to allign herself for ball/you/man defense. She has no clue how to deny a lane flash. She takes too long to get her shot off. She passes incorrectly with her left hand (weak hand). She can not use her speed due to her limited ballhandling ability.

Yet, she is the star of the JV team (2 quarters a night) and plays Varsity (3 quarters per night).

I am livid. How can a coach not give the kids the instruction that will make them better?

The biggest mistake ALL coaches make is too much time on TEAM and not enough time on individual skills.

Yes, I know your time is limited. But, you will increase your teams production quicker by helping each player get 5-10% better than you will by trying to get them to work as a team better. Working the team drills with kids who lack the skills to work them is a recipe for disaster.

Hey Linear. Here's one that might work for you. You seem to have basketball insight. As you attend games, speak to some parents about individual training if you're not already doing so. Make some cards, and see what comes of it. If you have the time, begin training one or two kids and always invite your daughter along as a helper. Then, when she hears what you're givng other kids, she will not only pick it up, but may start asking you things about the game. I know this from years of experience, it worked for me. Then again, you have to have the time and you really have to want to get involved.


Sometimes I sits and I thinks, sometimes I just sits.

That is a great idea.

There is another girl, point guard, who I could coach to where she gets my daughters spot in a few years.

It could come to that.