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Linear,

Ok - they exist.

Now - do you have "the sand" to do something to fix it?

Its an old saying - "the sand" - but I love it.

And it is ultimately IMO - the bottom line - in sports - business or anything else for that matter.

You can document your gripes all day long - but if that is all you are going to do - you are "meat".
(Another old saying I like).

Personally - I hope you use your energies to fix whatever problems you think exist - as opposed to using those energies to go on cyber-kamikaze missions.

Wink
Last edited by itsinthegame
I've been called the Queen of Diplomacy. And a couple of times, the Mother Theresa of the Internet.

I won't earn either of those titles with this post.

Linear, we have all been patient with you, and as itsinthegame pointed out, we have really tried to let you contribute here. But you are just insistent on proving that you are a rude jerk. As CoachB25 said, you state your opinion as fact. Then (my words), you call others idiots and worse names because they don't praise your ideas. I personally like CoachB25 a lot, but besides that he contributes so much to these forums, and has worked very hard as a moderator in a forum that was temporarily having a big problem. It makes me really ticked off when you persist in being so disrespectful to him. He has the ability and authority to delete every one of your posts, yet he allows your verbal abuse to stand - I guess he believes in letting everyone have their say.
Last edited by MN-Mom
Linear, again, read my post. THERE ARE BAD COACHES. There are bad parents. There are bad garbage men. There are bad judges. In every case, there are good as well. I believe that in each case the good are much more prevalent than that bad. Yes, it is possible that you ran into a bad coach/situation. Happy, I acknowledged it. However, you provide opinion and no fact. Kind of like the Golden Dancer analogy for the movie/play Inherit the Wind. When talking about a rocking horse that Henry Drummond had always wanted, upon receiving that rocking horse for Christmas, it broke that very day. Thus the quote, "All glitter on the outside but no substance within."

Each of us, as parents, have to decide what is best for our kids. I agree with that. Again, I hope you make the right choice for your child. My choice for my girl, grow up, be responsible, don't learn early in life to take it and speak up for yourself. Note, in our society women make 75% as much as men for doing the same job. Therefore, I want her to be able to approach any coach, man, boss, woman... and defend herself. I simply don't understand your reluctance to attempt this approach first before you attempt to interceed. Each to their own.

Signed,

HIS ARROGANCY (LOL)
WOW!! At the risk of being the punching bag, I just wanted to say the following;

There are terrific HS coaches in this country and the majority of them work harder than most people give them credit for. Yes, there are some coaches that leave a bit to be desired. If that is the case, a parent has choices such as private schools moving etc. I enjoy this site and have read some great posts and I especially enjoy reading about the success stories about players making it to the next level and living their dreams. What I do not enjoy reading is people opining and taking unfair shots at other posters, does not matter if they are a coach or not. Right is right, wrong is wrong and some of the stuff I have read is plain and simple, WRONG! I do not agree with every perspective in life or on this site. However, I respect the opinions of others and there are many times that I have reflected on things and found some merit to the "other" opinion.

Respect the game, be a student of the game and do not become a student of negativity and name calling. I win games, and I lose games, their is no crying in in baseball. I make mistakes, but I try not to make the same mistake twice! It's part of life.
quote:
Originally posted by waveball:
WOW!! At the risk of being the punching bag, I just wanted to say the following;

There are terrific HS coaches in this country and the majority of them work harder than most people give them credit for. Yes, there are some coaches that leave a bit to be desired. If that is the case, a parent has choices such as private schools moving etc. I enjoy this site and have read some great posts and I especially enjoy reading about the success stories about players making it to the next level and living their dreams. What I do not enjoy reading is people opining and taking unfair shots at other posters, does not matter if they are a coach or not. Right is right, wrong is wrong and some of the stuff I have read is plain and simple, WRONG! I do not agree with every perspective in life or on this site. However, I respect the opinions of others and there are many times that I have reflected on things and found some merit to the "other" opinion.

Respect the game, be a student of the game and do not become a student of negativity and name calling. I win games, and I lose games, their is no crying in in baseball. I make mistakes, but I try not to make the same mistake twice! It's part of life.


Nice post.

Where I come from, most of our select team coaches are much better than many HS coaches.
A parent needs to approach HS baseball for what it is within their own area. We have many fine coaches who assist in HS programs and are MUCH better coaches but their roles are limited as to who plays and who doesn't.
I consider HS ball to be what it is, HS ball. A chance for many players to participate in an extra curriculum activity. A chance to play the sport they love maybe for the last years of their lives. We had a good relationship with son's HS coach, even though I didn't agree with all he did, it was his call, and he played all fairly, whether you were the next #1 draft round or not. If you showed up for practices and on time, he put more weight on that than playing the best on the team for the next district championship. He didn't talk to parents regarding playing time and most parents didn't approach the subject. If players didn't like it, they left, some came because they liked that philosophy. The only time we bucked heads was when sons pitch count got out of control and we settled that with him and the AD. As a sophomore and junior mine was better than any junior, senior pitcher, but he never complained because they got more starts over him. That's HS baseball life folks. We relied on the tournament and summer team route.

Someone mentioned something about parents should approach a coach in the same as any other teacher their son may have. I don't agree, as baseball is not a subject you are being graded on. Your son made the team, it may not have given him an open door to play every game.
What bothers MOST parents is that they see the HS coach not being involved enough in getting son to the next level and MOST HS coaches don't do that. It's not in their union contract to do so. It's parents responsibility t seek out other opportunities for those options. If you have a HS coach who goes way beyond that role, you are very lucky. There are many fine HS coaches, but I also believe one can go through 4 years of playing for one and NOT learn A THING.

Now if I was paying a summer team coach lots of money and mine was sitting, I'd have a different opinion.

Although some say it is every coaches responsibility to field the best players on a team (the one with better stats), it doeesn't always happen that way in HS. I do believe that was what the original post was about.

Opinions on this topic have been varied and interesting and they are what they are opinions and should be respected. As in any topic, when you begin to get nasty, I am NOT going to listen to your opinion anymore because that just leaves you looking like a jerk, and jerks usually have very little credibility for their opinions, regardless of their knowledge.
Last edited by TPM
quote:
Note, in our society women make 75% as much as men for doing the same job.


Coachb25: Not true. Women, on average, make 75% of men, but not for the same job. All the feminist groups want to blur the distinction here because it suits their agenda, but it simply isn't true.

Many studies have shown that the actual same job/same qualifications earnings differential is really quite small - more like 3%.
Gotwood,

We have a BAD garbage man! He throws the empty garbage cans where ever he wants.
Of course, I've never confronted him about this becausewe are never home when he does his thing.

IMO - Those who defend high school coaches have had very good experiences with theirs. Those who don't respect HS coaches have had bad experiences.

Truth is... It's always amazed me how many HS players head to college programs with no idea of how to play the game.

IMO - There are some very good ones and there are a lot of very bad ones! At least, when it comes to teaching the game. Most of these very bad ones, would not bother to read the HSBBW.
Waveball - Amen!

CoachB - I have no doubt that your daughter will arise above any challenges presented her because of the lessons you have enabled her to learn. It's our job to run to our four year old when they skin their knee, but there comes a time where we have to allow themselves to stand up and clean their own wounds! Nothing wrong with knowing mom and dad are there supporting, but supporting and rescuing are two different things.
CoachB25.....my former boss called me one day...out of the blue....and said.....we are giving you a 23% pay raise.....well, I was floored.....and delighted.....asked him why....because I had just had my annual review/raise....why another.....and such a large increase......

He said because of the great work I did....

Found out the next week.....corporate offices were being audited because of an EEO complaint......and I came up in the audit....seems I was earning 23% less than the males in my job classification.....

I think it happens less now than it did 20 years ago...when I got my surprise raise....but it still goes on.....

.....and....... I'm still waiting for Rob's statistical references.... noidea
Last edited by LadyNmom
Coach and Arizonared:

I certainly wouldn't claim that you can't find anecdotes about a women being paid less than a man for the same job. I'm sorry for your wife's situation, but your statement was very broad - you said women get 75% for what men get for the same work.

Take a look at this

And do a search on June O'Neill, an economist, former head of the Congressional Budget Office. She did a study of the question (there have been many, many others as well) and found for men and women with similar work histories and credentials are very close in average pay - women get 98% of what men get.

The 75% number is a canard. OF COURSE if you just take averages women make less. They also tend to choose to leave the workforce for some period of time, work fewer hours, choose occupations that require less in the way of investment in training, etc.

Read the studies they are fascinating. I'd never tell anyone that discrimination never happens - but there is not widespread and systematic wage discrimination in the US Workplace.
Last edited by Rob Kremer
Rob....this article addresses different jobs...but not same jobs held by both sexes.....you say read the studies....what other studies do you have comparing like jobs?

A study by J. Dingell (D-MI) and K. Maloney (D-NY) found that between 1995 and 2000 the gap widened in 7 out of 10 industries....between males and females performing similar managerial work....

There is no argument that an MD should make more than the receptionist....DUH!!!

BUT.... we are talking different pay for like jobs.....please reference Coach B's post...he specifically refers to different pay for doing the same work.....
Last edited by LadyNmom
arizona:
no, coaches post said that women make 75% of what men make in the same jobs. The 75% number is women/men ratio for ALL jobs.

The O'Neill study compared women and men with similar histories. Just having the same "job" is not a good apples to apples comparison. Take two people with same job - one might have far more sick days, work fewer hours, and otherwise make choices that reduce income.

O'Neill held all those things constant, which is precisely what you have to do to get an honest answer to the question of whether there is gender-based wage discrimination.

It is true that women, on average, work fewer hours, take more time off in sick days and family days, and tend to make a host of other workplace choices that results in them making less money, on average, than men, even if they are in the "same" job.
PGStaff:

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Gotwood,

We have a BAD garbage man! He throws the empty garbage cans where ever he wants.
Of course, I've never confronted him about this becausewe are never home when he does his thing.

IMO - Those who defend high school coaches have had very good experiences with theirs. Those who don't respect HS coaches have had bad experiences.

Truth is... It's always amazed me how many HS players head to college programs with no idea of how to play the game.

IMO - There are some very good ones and there are a lot of very bad ones! At least, when it comes to teaching the game. Most of these very bad ones, would not bother to read the HSBBW.


Our garbage cans get strewn around occasionally too...raccoons are mostly responsible. We've had the same, great garbageman for well over twenty years...very nice man...always with a ready genuine smile!

Regarding your observation about people viewing HS coaches differently...totally agree...some really earn their plaudits while others get their deserved brickbats...no different really from any other segment of society.

good
arizonared:

quote:
Originally posted by arizonared:
Gotwood.....I think I can help you....right off the page and into a karmamotion that will leave you so tied in karma-knots that you'll be unable to think let alone type another karmaawful post again.......

.....couldn't help myself.....sorry.

angel


No apologies necessary...I get your drift...knot sure if I'm seeing angels or stars! Probably both.

bye See ya'!
Last edited by gotwood4sale
Rob.....you are being repetitive.....go back to Coach B's post....that's the issue....and I think you missed it.....

The studies I referenced utilized managerial positions....salaried postitions.....base salaries....not affected by leave of any kind.......and as a former Labor Relations Manager....you don't need to advise me on the differences in salary as affected by leave time....but thanks anyway.....

gotwood.... haha
Last edited by LadyNmom
My Wife was a Senior Chemist. Every professional person in her workplace signed a "non-disclosure" form. The penalty for disclosing what you made was termination. They had a major cutback and half of her lab was terminated. Those that stayed including my Wife threw a party for those that were leaving down on the landing in St. Louis. After a few of Mr. Busch's products, those chemist terminated showed everyone their check stubs. Lower level male chemist were making as much as my Wife including two of her subordinates. Each chemist was on a yearly review and had been told that they were on on "steps." My Wife was so hurt that she resigned her job the next day. No we didn't sue. Should have.

BTW, no sour grapes here, my Wife got a better job with better pay and hours on this side of the river.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Rob.....you are being repetitive.....go back to Coach B's post....that's the issue....and I think you missed it.....


arizona:
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I DID quote directly from Coachb25's post and was correcting a factual error - that women get 75% of what men get for the same job.

I had to repeat myself because you ignored my argument and evidence I presented, which spoke directly to he point I made.

And that point still stands ... the 75% number is an average of ALL job, not the same job.

But I repeat myself....
Rob...I didn't ignore your argument or evidence....if you re-read my post...you will see that.....I read the study you offered....read it and rejected it.....

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with pay discrepency for doing the same job...... When you find a study addressing that issue.....let me know....because that's the one I'm talking about as well as Coach B.....

Feminist propaganda indeed! Wink
Last edited by LadyNmom
From the iwf website:

"A study of the gender wage gap conducted by economist June O' Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that women earn 98 percent of what men do when controlled for experience, education, and number of years on the job."

I'm not sure why you don't think that controlling for experience, education and number of years on the job suffices to answer the question at hand, but OK.

The 75% number is from the census. Actually. last census it crept up to 80%. There is zero dispute about this number. It is the raw average, all jobs.

So are you saying that you dispute that this average is for all jobs? Or that somehow an average for all job is 75% AND that women get 75% of what men get for the same job?

Which of course would be impossible.
Rob....please stop regurgitating this study you found....it has nothing to do with like pay for like work.... You are quoting directly from the article..... is that why you don't get it?....maybe if you stop and digest it.....then put it in your own words....it might help.....

You can control the variables all you want but if you are not talking like jobs....it doesn't pertain to the original premise put forth by Coach B....

Better yet.....look at the study I referenced.....

You said in a previous post you didn't want to be argumentative....and I'm thankful for that....otherwise this might be construed as an argument......do we agree on that?
Last edited by LadyNmom

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