(coaches) player errors and hitting, being fair.

Oh boy just wait. Falll ends then exit meetings. Your role defined before the first game. You think what? You don't like what? You going to call who? You better come in ready. You better come in tough. You better leave the drama with your mama! Better teach them now. Oh well.

Good point slugger, however from my perspective, I don't equate soft with how much time is spent working on their craft....I call that dedication.  What I do call soft, is parents, or players for that matter that complain about playing time, and coaches.  I am not saying it is never warranted, however in my experience with players, or parents I hear complain as it relates to teams jr has been on, it was not warranted 99% of the time...hence those complaints were "soft". 

Coach May,

 

you lost me on your last post?.....but I did like / enjoy your previous one.

Back Foot,  I guess I wouldn't call the complaining per se soft.  I'd call it soft only if it was  used as an excuse and stopped a player from busting his chops to get better -- either for the HS coach or away from the HS coach, but mostly away.  I don't think a player who thinks,  "Coach is a ***. but I'm going show his sorry  ***"" is soft at all.  

 

 

Like you said, there are really LOTS of opportunities for a driven kid to get better these days.    And I don't think any kid or parent in their right minds solely relies on HS coaches these days -- they've got them for such a short period.   Even during "open fields"   before the season starts,  HS coaches  in CA can only work on conditioning, basically, and not on baseball skills. 

 

 

"HS coaches  in CA can only work on conditioning, basically, and not on baseball skills."

 

I come down 1000% on the opposite side and can point to many HS coaches in the Bay Area, if you would like.  They would include Mitty, San Benito, Carmel, Pacific Grove, Palo Alto, Wilcox and a very long list.

I listened to a broadcast of UNC and UVA the other night. The discussion was about how many players get recruited by each school from New England. Many are wonderfully athletic and multiple sports guys in HS who really take off skill wise when put into a college program with coaches who develop players and skills.

One might suggest that the CA. approach is somewhat the opposite, with players so focused on one sport and getting to college far closer to their peak talent level and with less upside.  To suggest someone like Bill Hutton did not place his personal mark on the vast number of players coming through his program is really a big miss and Coach Hutton isn't alone, just a declining breed because of.....you know.

Well,  I was just talking about the rules for pre-season  "open fields"  with that remark you quoted.  A lof of these guys leave their marks on the players through their off-season organizations -- like CCB, for example.    But as I  understand it,  preseason open fields aren't for skills development.  CCS states that pretty explicitly don't know if it varies from section to section.  (I know there is a sort of  work around -- involving small group  instruction and a very limited amount of time per week.  Can't remember the exact language.) 

 

I would never deny that there are some fine coaches in our area and some fine programs.  You and i both know which ones they are.   We both know the dogs too.   But we don't need to name names.  :-)

 

Also,  I'm not sure whether the all year round single focus athlete is al things considered a  good thing or a bad thing.  Healthwise seems to me probably a bad thing, especially for pitchers.    Maybe for  them all -- overuse injuries and all.

 

But it does seem hard to deny the very high level of skill development of the most driven and dedicated and smart ones.  (I mean if a kid is playing all year and not conditioning and working on fundamental skills that doesn't seem very smart so I'm not talking just about playing all year round, but having a rhythm to the year.) 

 

It's accurate he (coach)handed the stat sheet out. That's why I am questing it. He has 3 seperate innings where he had  3 errors in each of them. saturday he had 7 erors in 12 attempts. That I personnaly watched. Think my son has had right at 30 attempts no errors. He has played 2nd 3rd pitched and caught and been their best hitter lead off. He is playing all the time my son that is. just think if the other ss was not son of the booster club president it would be different. It's not like iam setting in the stands and saying neg. comments that is why I posted on here just venting. 

 

Reason we are 12-2 is because we are a 4a school and the 12 wins have been against 2a schools both losses have come from schools in our conferenc  there the errors kill us instead of our  2 best pitchers getting out of the inning in 11 or 12 pitches they end up having 20 or 25 Pitches. The pitching we have seen has been in the 65 mph range at 2a and been routing them. just been hammering the smaller schools and been get away with the errors most of the 2a kids have had no private lessons and can't touch our 75 mph kids that have off speed to go with it. My sons throws a nasty 2 seam that runs a lot for a 15yr old you should see the right hande 2a kids bail on it it like they are seeing a curveball, the conference teams we face do not bail on it they have seen it before Most of them have had TT experience. When we face bigger schools from bigger cities  most of the kids are in the 75. - 80 mph range with some decent off speed stuff. we lose. The errors kill us. Most of them from the bigger cities have had lessons.and the hitters are more disciplined the skill level between  2a and 4a are enormous

 

we have 8 kids from the same TT that have played 70 approx games a year for the last 5 or 6 years.  5 kids from the local rec league 15 games a year huge difference in talent. None of the local rec league kids can touch curve the kids in our conference will just sit back on it and hit it oppo. Same way with the 2a schools we have played most Of the TT have had some sort of hitting, fielding and pitching coaches.

 

our varsity coach thinks we should play the schools close to us they just happen to be small schools with 80 kids in a class think we have about 500 a class.the whole reason we started a TT was to try and play better competition. same With us we win most of the TT tourneys we go to within a 100 miles. But when we travel to cincy, Omaha, Ripken we do okay but we usually end up getting spanked by an elite team from a much bigger city in the later rounds

 

normally I wouldn't even have posted if the kid had a few errors I would be like he is in a little slump I know the kid he's a good kid. I tell my kid all the time just focus on what you can control. We hit atleast 3 nights in the garage and field twice a week at a facility. This errors are drastic and the stats are fairly reliable if anything the benefit the kid it is highschool stats so they are going to be a little easy on him.my kid has played every inning either at second, pitching,3rd or catching where he has 0 errors in more attempts then our starting 3rd baseman who has 6 all while my son was pitching. Yeah I would like my kid there but if it's not him we have at least 3 kids that would do better that I have watched play since they were. 5 yr old

 

the kid is 15 he is not stupid, what do you tell them when they ask you what do I gotta do to get a postion. I give him allt the political correct stuff it's just really frustrating. He's doing everything right working hard.not making any error physically or mentally. Just plain not getting a chance. The practices the high school have are generic at best. I have actually thought about skipping hS ball next year just so we can practice with the TT that actually have productive. Instructive practices by  mlb guys that actually get what baseball is about and respect it. Most of the kids now days it's just a social gathering to hang out with your buddies

My favorite post in this thread is "The truth is he just plain sucks" combined with "I don't mean to demean the kid." 

 

YES YOU DO MEAN TO DEMEAN THE KID. I'm glad my son never had any teammates with parents like you. Or at least I didn't know about it. This is how team cancers start. I'm willing to bet you've had a conversation similar to this thread with at least one parent connected to the team. Pathetic! It must be wonderful your kid is all-world. If I was coach and any of this came back to me I'd sit down the kid, tell him to have a talk with you regarding a polite way to say STFU.

Kharma is a you know what. That player your talking about is someones son. They love him just as much as you love yours. When your son does get his shot imagine another team mate, parent, sitting in the stands saying about your son what your saying about their son. What you wish on others many times comes back on you. You should let this go and think about your attitude and how your negativity will bring you negativity. I am a firm believer that those that wish ill will on others bring that ill will on themselves. Try this on for size. Pull your heart out for that kid. Pull for him to make plays and have a great year. Let your son see that. Boy what a message you would be sending your son.

 

Good luck.

 

I've seen this happen recently.  Someone I know, whose son goes to another school district, is always trashing every other player.  At one point a couple of years ago our son's played together during the summer.  The father and mother have no respect for the head coach of any team their son is on.  They don't hide their hatred in front of other parents or their own son.

 

Guess what?  Their son spent the season as the third-string 3B on a freshman team. Partly because he doesn't have the skills his dad thinks that he has, but mostly because of the player's attitude problem.  He's been taught well by his parents.  They taught him a lack of respect for coaches and that is what the player exhibits.  He sat behind a kid that was a lesser player defensively, but was a far better teammate.

 

One of your goals as a parent is to teach them what to do and how to act in life.  But if you teach them wrong, they will do wrong.

 

 

 

Why is this such a prevalent topic?  I mean, I know why, but isn't it more fun to actually ENJOY your son's baseball experience as much as possible? Also, like has been said many times uptopic, these obstacles are defining moments in a kid's life. These are the times that parenting skills need to shine. 

 

ETA my son loves that as he says, "everything you learn in baseball you can relate to life" 

 

amen.

I just spent 45 minutes reading the whole thread.  Coach May hits the nail on the head.  But to simplify the whole conversation, "Play the best 8 and my son and all is well."  I've read stats, excuses, etc.  It all boils down to winning.  I think parents seem to forget that no kid on a coach's team is more important than his wife and kids at home.  If the coach doesn't win, he gets fired, his family doesn't eat.  Period, end of story.  So the next time the discussion comes up amongst parents, think about the previous 2 sentences.  I now sit in the right field bullpen to watch my youngest games.  I have no comments, no opinions, or any say-so towards our coach or other parents.  I have been there.  I give my son the same advice every morning.  Outwork someone today and you'll be fine.  Work when no one is watching and when others aren't. 

Originally Posted by Overthehill:

…It all boils down to winning.  I think parents seem to forget that no kid on a coach's team is more important than his wife and kids at home.  If the coach doesn't win, he gets fired, his family doesn't eat.  Period, end of story. …

 

While I sincerely hope the HS coaches around you get paid enough to raise a family, I know the ones around here would make more $$$ working the same number of hours at a minimum wage job, and that doesn’t exactly put his family in the high rent district. So I really think there’s something much more to it than winning. Period, end of story.

"In my brief time here, it seems to me that there are at least two distinct subcultures on this board -- one subculture shows great deference to and respect for HS coaches, the other, smaller one,  has less deference and respect."

Honestly I feel 90% of the board can be broken into these two groups:

1.Parents whose kids playing/played in college and/or pro ball
2. Parents whose kids are currently on  hs/travel/youth/rec league team.

I find that group 2 parents experiencing problems with the HS program  often don't appreciate the group 1 advice when it comes to their own kids and tends to be in denial as their kids situation is "unusual".  The real problem is that when your kid isn't playing, its probably a sign that he's achieved the highest level  and the "career" is just about over.  Some group 1 posters are a little more diplomatic about it then others.

The worst board discussions center on playing time, coaches and other parents.  To be quite honest some of these are the most entertaining discussions, but don't usually help anybody because the ultimate advice is  "your kid needs to get better".   Sometimes a change of school and/or coach can help a talented player, but not an average player.

 

btw a talented player can often overcome bad coaching and/or parental advice on his own!

Great points!

Thanks for all of the responses! There were some that made perfect sense. Just wanting some insight as going in to the next level (HS). I should have stated too that this was JV not varsity and due to not having a freshman team the JV consisted of freshman, sophomores and a couple of juniors. This was first season of HS. 

Originally Posted by SluggerDad:

…By the way,  player stats are, of course,  all over the place these days in HS sports -- they aren't kept secret and you don't have to go out of your way to notice them.  Our team broadcast updated stats after every game via Gamechanger.  Stats are also regularly posted on Maxpreps. So they are just out there for all to see. I don't get this line that you shouldn't use stats to evaluate whether the right guys are in the right place.  What else should you use?  Coach's intuition?   Of course, there are stats and there are stats.  Crude old fashioned stats don't really tell you all that much -- especially given smallness of sample size for HS season.  And I doubt that many HS coaches dabble in advanced stats of the sabremetric sort. 

 

There is lot of very good information in that 1 little paragraph!

 

The 1^st item of note is that the stats really are all over the place, but the important thing about it that isn’t often talked about, is why that is? Companies like MaxPreps do what they do for a reason, and that’s to make $$$$ by filling a niche. They don’t do it to help ML scouts pick future draftees or college scouts hand out scholarships to the right players. They do it because people want to see the numbers, and while of course they’d rather have accurate numbers, that isn’t very important to them, or they would be! The real customers for stats are 1^st the parents, next the coaches, and after that the scouts., upper level coaches, etc..

 

The next really noteworthy thing you said is, What else should you use? You didn’t come right out and say it, but what I read into it is that even relatively poor stats are more accurate than a coach’s memory about what really took place or his intuition about how his players queue up in various statistical categories.

 

Then you touched on how really worthless the “old fashioned” stats are, and how the size of the sample make them fairly useless for prognostications. What many people don’t know though, is that as long as they are being used to only evaluate the team, they can be helpful. Where they really fall apart is when trying to compare players on one team to another.

 

That last one about not many coaches dabbling in more advanced metrics is probably very true, but it’s a real shame because its not all that difficult. What’s difficult, is finding someone to score the games and keep track of the things advanced stats need, and to put it in a form where it can be retrieved in a useful format. That can’t be done with a pad and pencil, and is very difficult to do with a spreadsheet, but it can be done to a much higher degree than it is now.

 

All in all, that was a very good post with a lot of good information.

bbm4life, back to your OP, "Fair" does not exist.  What is fair to one is not to another.  Therefore, control all those things you can control and do so with maximum effort.  I was cut both my freshman and sophomore years.  I was, without a doubt, the best player from my town and for a couple of age groups.  The problem was me.  I had to fix me.  I had to stop getting into fights and had to be more of a teammate.  Once I fixed that, I had some great times in HS ball and was able to go on and play in college.  What might hinder your son or anyone's son for that matter has been pointed out here several times.  Allowing a player to uses excuses for failure will destroy them.  They should be working on reasons for success.  I am sitting here watching the MLB Draft.  I have had many many players play professionally.  The one constant in all of them is that no one could outwork them.  Be supportive and there for your son but don't be a crutch.  I hope that this site helps you along your journey.

It all may come down to how much $$$ you shell out to the boosters? (Kidding! Well, sort of)

 

in sarcasm many times a little truth???