Coaching Profanity

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"Great place to learn and teach."

Yeah, there is a certain level of comfort about this place. Reminds you of home.

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I don't cuss at practice or games. This is not because I'm some good, all-moral guy. It's because I don't think it's a good way to coach baseball.

We also don't work on football plays or read Shakespeare during baseball practice. I don't think those things would make us a better baseball team.

I would hope the things we do are designed to make our players better and thus our team succeed.

Disclaimer: at a recent fantasy baseball draft with several of my ex-players who are now adult... bombs were dropped

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"It's because I don't think it's a good way to coach baseball."

B-I-N-G-O!



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quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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"It's because I don't think it's a good way to coach baseball."

B-I-N-G-O!



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I wonder about coaching youth and HS baseball, any more. I honestly do.
In our experience, there are coaches who don't swear, yell or use profanity, but cannot motivate and empower the players or team and cannot coach a lick of baseball and might do more to demoralize than energize any given situation..
There are some coaches locally, especially in HS, who don't swear on a baseball field, don't allow it with the players, are great, great youth and HS coaches and are despised and undermined by parents.
There are coaches who yell and scream and use some profanity, get in the face of players and the team, and they are great coaches, great motivators, build chemistry and generate every ounce of leadership and desire they can from players and get every bit of talent from each player and the team.
There are coaches who yell, scream, use profanity,get in the grill of players/the team and cannot motivate or coach a lick.
This thought was posted on the D3 message boards yesterday by one very knowledgeable and thoughtful poster:
"The other side of a successful program is how well the coach helps the student-athlete navigate the waters in which the kid finally sees just how good/marginal a collegiate athlete that his/her skills allow him/her to be. If the coach validates that person for the effort and the talents that are required for someone who will "turn pro in life", well then the absence of that person's name on the roster 4-years later is mitigated by the contribution that that experience had on the student-athlete."

In my view, the above quote is right near the core of the coach-athlete relationship.
Not all great coaches will do it the same way.
Ultimately, the question is how to support the student-athlete to "turn pro in life."
Our son had some screamers in his career and during his 20 plus years of competing, we watched plenty of coaches get in the grill of players and get the utmost out of them.
Being a "leader" for young men aged 14-21 is not an easy task. ]
From our experience, the use of profanity does not and should not define a coach.
To be fully candid, I never watched a HS or college practice of our son and he would have "flipped" if I did.
He just completed his Masters in Coaching Education.
His views are a blend of that education and his coaches along a long path. Some of those he values most were screamers, yellers, got in his grill, used profanity and demanded more and more and more from him. He respects them immensely.
He also decided not to coach HS baseball when he saw the venom which could come from the mouths, pens and computers of parents, as well as the impact of those who would shake your hand while working to stab a coaching staff in the back.

"It's because I don't think it's a good way to coach baseball."

That is so true Trojan. You can’t coach baseball that way on a consistent basis and succeed. It doesn’t work.

I was at a HS game last week watching a friend of mine son play. In the game his team made a few errors and lost the game. After the game the coach went on a tirade yelling and hollering on how you can’t make errors. After the yelling he then placed his team back on the field and ripped groundballs at them until they got 21 straight outs. Of course errors were made as he ripped the balls and further destroying what little confidence the players had. Players became angry with each other. After this he had the player all run post to post, a lot. I predicted to my friend that the next day’s game would be worse because you can’t coach baseball in that manner.

Next day came. I called him in the first inning to see what was happening and the team had already committed 5 errors. They ended the game with 8 errors and of course lost 15-2.

quote:

Some of those he values most were screamers, yellers, got in his grill, used profanity and demanded more and more and more from him. He respects them immensely.

To the extent that these are used as coaching methodology and calculated for effectiveness on adults - they may be judged by their effectiveness. To the extent that they are used because coaches are angry or know no other way to control children - they are inappropriate. There is clearly grey area in between.

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"He just completed his Masters in Coaching Education."

I have to admit to being just a bit spoiled when it comes to coaches. Although I have never been coached myself (the exception being a few months of wrestling in the 8th grade) I was fortunate to be a witness for many years to the coaching by the greatest coach ever...John Wooden. For many years before college, and the years I was in college, I had the distinct privilege of seeing his magnificent and impeccably coached teams compete against the Oregon State Beavers. Always a full house...and every once in a while a Beaver victory. Wooden, in my mind, is the coaching gold standard.


"Hmmm? Who's the best coach? That'd be John Wooden, without question!"......"Can't argue with that, I agree!"

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I find that most of the yelling type baseball coaches when their team is making errors, hitters are not hitting, pitchers walking too many are the coaches who don't know how to correct it, instruct it or teach it. They are left with being mad and are not sure how to fix it, so they yell.

Getting in a players grill every now and again for lack of effort, well that's another thing. Still doesn't have to be profanity.

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Originally posted by YesReally:

quote:

Some of those he values most were screamers, yellers, got in his grill, used profanity and demanded more and more and more from him. He respects them immensely.

To the extent that these are used as coaching methodology and calculated for effectiveness on adults - they may be judged by their effectiveness. To the extent that they are used because coaches are angry or know no other way to control children - they are inappropriate. There is clearly grey area in between.

YesReally,
I think most would agree that are differences in coaching children and those I referenced being ages 14-21.
Coaching out of anger and the effort to "control" won't be very successful at any level.
To take the opposite, I watched one of the most successful college coaches of all time a few years back. Sunday game and they had lost the Friday/Saturday games with the coach being held back from heading into the stands following the Saturday game.
After his pitcher walked the first batter of the game, he called time and plodded to the mound. Not a word was said when he got there. Took the ball, motioned to the bullpen.
2nd pitcher trots in, finishes warm ups, and pitches to 2 batters, walking the 2nd. Coach trudges to the mound, not a word spoken, took the ball and motioned to the pen.
By the 5th inning, his team was on pitcher #6, with each change done the same way, following a base on balls.
There was no expressed anger, but there sure was and there was control.
Could he do that with children? Probably not but I don't consider young men of HS and college age to be children.
Good coaches get their message across. Sometimes it is through some "fury." It is almost always done with "control."
That team was in Omaha in June.

However funny this comes out.....its a true story....


I was umpiring a HS game when a very outmatched batter struck out on 3 straight fastballs....he proceeds to pound the bat against the plate and swear loudly....

F*** , F***, F***.....

I took him over to his coach and informed him the we needed a replacement for #28 who is ejected for profanity....

He looks up in the stands at his dad and..

Kid says.....I got ejected for something I F***ing said!....

Dad says "what did you F***ing say?

Kid says "I dont F***ing know!!!....

I just shook my head......

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:
However funny this comes out.....its a true story....


I was umpiring a HS game when a very outmatched batter struck out on 3 straight fastballs....he proceeds to pound the bat against the plate and swear loudly....

F*** , F***, F***.....

I took him over to his coach and informed him the we needed a replacement for #28 who is ejected for profanity....

He looks up in the stands at his dad and..

Kid says.....I got ejected for something I F***ing said!....

Dad says "what did you F***ing say?

Kid says "I dont F***ing know!!!....

I just shook my head......

So I just watched the Augie Garrido tirade...am I the only one who thinks the guy acted like a total jerk? Is the F word the only adjective he knows to use? He must have a very low IQ and even smaller vocabulary then *****. I get that I may be alone in this but honestly, that's a guy no matter how successful his program is I wouldn't want my son playing for him. No matter the environment, can you imagine going to work and yes, baseball is his job and going off on those you supervise? Why is it acceptable in a sports environment again? Do we just accept coaches are too stupid or undisciplined to exercise the same restraint the rest of us do?

Honestly, nobody else thinks that was a ridiculous tantrum? Did he know he was being taped and have the decency to apologize?

Nice story piaa

Coaching profanity? Does it need to be coached? Tenns tend to come by it naturally.

14 year olds are not adults. In the eyes of the law and many others 15 through 17 year olds are not adults.

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Originally posted by YesReally:
14 year olds are not adults. In the eyes of the law and many others 15 through 17 year olds are not adults.

If you are referring to me, I didn't say they were adults.
My reference point is they are not children, either, in a baseball sense and some/most teens don't take well to being referenced as a "child" on a baseball field.
Does it and should it take a different coaching perspective and approach for a 14-15 year old than a 18-19 year old?
On some baseball and coaching issues, yes.
As RJM suggests, we would be hiding our heads in some very deep sand to think that perhaps 95%, perhaps more of these players don't hear every word and more before and after they step on a baseball field.
On the other hand, there are some great HS coaches who don't swear and don't allow it on the field who end up on the wrong end of parental venom somewhat similar to some of the comments permeating this thread.

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It's because I don't think it's a good way to coach baseball.

As a parent I have had 12 years of baseball experience with four different kids consisting of league ball, tournament ball and now high school ball. The most valuable coach for my son was last year. This coach was kind, calm and very collected and every single one of his kids respected him. They also learned a great deal from him on the field and off the field. Last year was a breakout year for my son. He started hitting consistently and even during a game that he struggled to pitch, the coach was able to provide him the reassurance that everything was ok and the strength to work through his struggle - and yes they won the game. We we're successful winning many tournaments and placing very high at the state level.

This coach never used profanity, he never screamed at the kids, he provided them constructive criticism when needed and never lost his composure. I only wish our high school coach could have some of these characteristics.

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Welcome aboard the HSBBW riverrush...and thank you for your contribution. It appears you and your son have discovered a keeper coach. Those are the best kind!



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I think the risk here is less to the boys, and more to the reputation of the school. As some have said -- if this goes viral, it's the school that'll look bad. If I were the AD, I'd tell him to tone it down.

quote:

Originally posted by riverrush:

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It's because I don't think it's a good way to coach baseball.

As a parent I have had 12 years of baseball experience with four different kids consisting of league ball, tournament ball and now high school ball. The most valuable coach for my son was last year. This coach was kind, calm and very collected and every single one of his kids respected him. They also learned a great deal from him on the field and off the field. Last year was a breakout year for my son. He started hitting consistently and even during a game that he struggled to pitch, the coach was able to provide him the reassurance that everything was ok and the strength to work through his struggle - and yes they won the game. We we're successful winning many tournaments and placing very high at the state level.

This coach never used profanity, he never screamed at the kids, he provided them constructive criticism when needed and never lost his composure. I only wish our high school coach could have some of these characteristics.

Excellent post!

My son, now a senior, has played baseball since T-Ball. In all those years not one coach found the need to use profanity - certainly not in the manner discribed in the original post. Yes, there was one, maybe two that may have "yelled" at the players on occasion but it was never on a consistent basis and there was no profanity used.

I agree with riverrush - you just can't coach successfully that way. At least I've never seen it. That's coaching by fear. Players get more out of a coach that is in control of his temperment and coaches constructively. Using profanity as described will not IMHO gain any respect from the players and certainly not the parents.

PantherPride - given your situation, I would have approached the coach and discussed your concerns privately. Give him the opportunity to change. If he refuses to listen and denies his actions, then onto the AD, then the principal, superintendent. It is unacceptable for a coach (who is probably a teacher as well) to talk to anyone (even adults) in that manner. Bad example to be setting for the players.

Yeah I know HS players hear that sort of language among their peers, but doesn't mean it's acceptable for a coach/teacher to use it. Two wrongs do not make it right.


Sure, my son's current coach (HS) is stern at times, but I've yet to hear him use profanity. Coaches need some leeway in what they do, but profanity laced tirades is crossing the line.

I'm glad PIAA posted the story he posted because it's so true. You don't really know what's going on at home with some people. I've had kids in class that just cuss because it's what they hear at home. It's how their parents talk to them so they don't really understand why it's wrong. Not saying this is the case here but there is that situation.

Turning a boy into a young man into a man is more art than science and it takes a lot of people to help do it. As others have posted there is no one way to coach whether it's calm and cool or fired up. Same with players in that some can handle a rough and tough coach while others needs a more laid back coach. The successful coaches (and parents / teachers) are the ones who can do a little bit of all the above. You have to figure out who you can push and who you have to lead along. There will be times where you have to switch up that role too in certain situations.

I had a pitcher one time who would fold if I got onto him harshly. He wasn't very thick skinned and I had to coach him in that regard to get the most out of him. We were playing a game and it was close and his tank was about empty. We had two outs and this big huge clean up hitter was coming to the plate. My catcher goes out to the mound and they both call me out to the mound. I go out there and they both said it was time to make a pitching change (I had someone in the bullpen getting loose) because they didn't want to lose the game. To be perfectly honest it ticked me off to no end. I pretty much told this pitcher off and challenged him to get this guy out. It was time to man up and stop being soft. Nobody anywhere had a clue as to what I said to him except for the catcher. I go back to the dugout and this kid gets the guy to pop out to CF. He came off the mound smiling ear to ear. You know I took a chance in handling things like that because he could have folded but sometimes you have to challenge kids to get the most out of them. The opposite is also true. When you have that guy you have to crawl in sometimes it's best to back off and just talk to them.

We talk about the wussification of America's youth and I think there is some merit to that. But you can still have a player be strong mentally (and not be a wuss) without ever having expose them to cuss words. I've had several guys over the years who came from strong moral homes who didn't allow their kids to cuss be some of the strongest kids I've ever had mentally. That's a choice the family made in how they were going to raise their kids and they stuck to it while making sure they continued to make their kids be responsible for their actions.

What puzzles me the most and helps steer us towards the wussification of our kids are the parents who raise the biggest fuss over a coach using profanity BUT their kids listen to some of the worst music out there or watch the worst movies ever. Now I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways. Don't get all over a coach for his language when you as the parent allow your kid to listen to that garbage with music or TV. I'm not saying that the coach should be allowed to cuss because of this but don't send your kid a mixed message by doing this. Besides in my experience those kids are the ones with the worst mouths.

I don't want to demean the issue at hand but it still comes down to words and words only have power over you if you allow them to. My football coach growing up has probably the worst mouth I've ever came across in my life. I can't tell you how much respect I have for him because I learned how to tune out the cussing so I could hear the rest of the message. What helped though was going into high school my parents told me how he was and to be ready for it. They told me that they didn't agree with how he used profanity it still wasn't a big deal. There was one time when I was a sophomore we were having a bad day in a sweltering hot August practice in full pads. He called us together and started ripping us all new ones. Then he said he was going to pray for us. And he started praying and was cussing up a storm while doing it. I have no idea how we did the rest of the day but I will always remember that moment. Was it uncalled for - you better believe it and I'll never do something like that. But does it make for a good story to tell when I get together with my buddies over 20 years later - you better believe it. We laugh so hard over some of the stuff he did back then and all the games we won. Was it the right way to handle us? No I can't say it was because there were some guys who couldn't handle the individual rippings he would give and would quit. But a lot of people he's coached have went on to be successful in life. That includes those who came from good homes and bad homes. Maybe he had a part in it or maybe we became successful in spite of him. The moral to my story is you are the one still in control of how you let this stuff affect you.

As woody said I'm going to be the next AD at my school starting in June (thanks Woody for the kind words). From the best of my knowledge I'm going to be the only AD posting on here so maybe this can be a new perspective to add to the ones already on here from players, coaches and parents. As for the OP I can tell you have have a lot to learn to be AD because I have no prior experience. But I can tell you that if I ever get an anonymous letter complaining about a coach - trust me in that it's going into the trash. Come talk to me and I'll look into it. I'll talk to the coach and get their side of the story and try to figure out the middle. I may stop by practice or sit near the bench during games and observe. If there is a problem then we are going to sit down and discuss how there can be a fix in language (or whatever is wrong). While I'm from the school of thought it's really not a big deal I'm realistic enough to know that a coach / school has no leg to stand on if it's going on and someone complains.

Give people a chance to fix their problems.

I apologize for the novel.

For all those who feel there is one way to coach, or actually for anyone who has a son playing baseball, I would encourage you to read Michael Lewis wonderful retrospective on his HS baseball coach:

Coach: Lessons on the Game of Life

This book can be read in less than one hour.
Coaching and coaches leave impressions for a lifetime.
Coaches are not working only with "our"son, they are coaching, guiding, leading, and supporting 15, 20, 25 "my" sons.
This isn't about a "me" as a parent, it isn't about "my" son, it is about 25(in HS sometimes) to 35 sons(in college.)
Leadership is so rare any more.
Leadership comes in all sizes, shapes, approaches and personalities.
At one time Michael Lewis HS coach was treasured.
Time passed and all he had to offer as a coach, leader, and person who shaped lives to go "pro in life" were attacked and destroyed.
Before we think any approach to coaching, whether it be the PCA or any other is the "only one", take time to read, think about and absorb this wonderful Michael Lewis journey.
Better yet, take a trip to Jackson, Mississippi and watch Jim Page coach a college game at Millsaps College.

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Coach: Lessons on the Game of Life

Great suggested reading. I have the book and its well worth the read.

I don’t believe there is one way to coach, teach, inspire or lead. I also believe there are different ways to do the aforementioned depending on the player’s personality. But I will assert that the manner in which your objective as a coach is met will never be with demeaning a player.

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your objective as a coach is met will never be with demeaning a player.

How many coaches believe that is there objective?
C'mon, why play to the parents and emotions.
Good coaches want players to succeed.
They work their A$$$ off for their player to get there.
How many HS parents see anything beyond the current AB when evaluating that coach?
Are there coaches who want it to be about them?
Sure.
On the other hand, I would bet most of my retirement that parents would be appalled watching Jim Page coach and nurture and demand and command success. He has done it for 600 wins and is one of the great coaches. Irreverent..you bet.
Get in players' faces...Wow!
Christian..you bet.
A leader..you bet.
Is it about him..Yup!
BUT, it is about him getting every ounce of success out of 35 players from every September to May and then starting over.
From what I am reading in this thread, Jim Page would be the antithesis of many posters.
What a loss..just like Michael Lewis coach...too bad.

I think in these posts, we are speaking of HS coaches. If a player goes to play in college for a coach that uses those methods for coaching and they are surprised then shame on them. They should have known.

You could get in a players face without having it be a totally demeaning experience. Players of the college age are better prepared to handle it. I know its not the coaches objective to demean the player but his objective of getting the most out of a player will not be met if he routinely does so and doesn't realize he did.

Coaches that are firey so to speak and successful usually follow up the fire with alot of love.

Your right good coaches do want players to succeed but bad coaches don't know how, those are the ones that when they become angry get angry because they themselves can't figure it out.

And don't bet your retirement my friend, I'm sure you worked hard for it...LOL

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Coaches that are firey so to speak and successful usually follow up the fire with alot of love.

I would propose the opposite.
The love, caring and support would ring hollow if it came after the "fire."
Trust is built before, sometimes well before the fire.
Whether you are right or I might be, I would agree that "after" the "fire" the coach who makes the difference is there. They just don't let a player, any player feel they are alone, lost or not supported. In college, sometimes that effort occurs at 3am...and that coach is there!

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Whether you are right or I might be, I would agree that "after" the "fire" the coach who makes the difference is there. They just don't let a player, any player feel they are alone, lost or not supported. In college, sometimes that effort occurs at 3am...and that coach is there!

Yes, 100% agreed. Thats what I meant by the "love". And I also agree that "Trust" prior to the "fire" needs to be there, and therefore would probably not be seen by the player as demeaning. If not a coach could lose his players.

Thank you for the exchange and thoughtful insights on coaching.
It is tough work.
I know you spend a lot of time, effort and emotion doing it.
It might seem easy for me to advocate a different direction when I am not on a field.
I just value coaching for what mine gave for me and especially what so many gave for our son...and his teammates.

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That's a very good point IB.

"I had a pitcher one time who would fold if I got onto him harshly. He wasn't very thick skinned and I had to coach him in that regard to get the most out of him."

Your comment coach2709 reveals that you are indeed a very good coach. The team is a unit that must work at it's collective best to be successful, but not allowing for all of differences of the distinct individuals who comprise the team would be a huge mistake. You are absolutely able to achieve the most from your team by recognizing and knowing how to manage all of the different members of the team.

And infielddad has it exactly right about coaching: "It is tough work." And it is many times tougher, and conversely rewarding, when you happen to skipper a successful team and overall program. Regardless of personal style my hat is always off to the accomplished coaches who, season in and season out, field a winning team. Members of those teams, by in large, go on to be productive and positive influences in our society. Members of teams who may not have been on a successful team or within a successful program are positive influences as well, but they may or may not be able to attribute that influence to their coach. Either way, I think athletes, who are good sports, have an overall positive effect on our society.

Who among us think we could use more and more productive and positive influences in our society? To all of the numerous good coaches out there, and those who are a member here, I sincerely thank you and recognize the tremendous good work that you accomplish. And the same goes for all of our good sport athletes. It is appreciated.



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In my family, adults did not, and still do not, curse around children. We didn't have cable tv or the wild west of the internet. We had to learn bad words the old fashioned way- at school or the playground.

The first time I heard a coach curse, I was a little uncomfortable and confused. To me, foul language sounded different coming from an adult.

But, that was nothing compared to going to a girlfriend's house for the introductory dinner. Her whole family mom, dad, brothers, sisters, grandpop, dropped bombs all night long- at the table! It's funny now, but back then I wasn't used to anything like that. I never told my parents, either. They thought she was such a little sweetheart.

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Bring back any memories Antz?...

Hey numnutz! Pass me a 'nuther #^&#$(@ chicken leg would ya'? And the $&#($)*@ gravy boat...sail 'er my way too! Who cut your &^*($*@ hair? It looks like you were sleepin' under my %&(*$#@ Lawn Boy® when I fired 'er up! And no honey, I don't care what they &$*)$#@ say...I don't have have any %^*(&#@ room for any &%$)*#@ Jell-O®.

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Ha, it was worse than that. I didn't know if I was supposed to join in, or what. (I didn't)

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You didn't join in? I know, I know...you didn't want to hurt anyone. After all you can put a &^%(*#@ eye out with a &^(*$#@ chicken leg!



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I believe the Coach should be held to the same standard as anyone else. The same as a teacher, an Umpire, or a player.
You can be a great coach without being an idiot. Why in the world do we give the coach a free pass when we'd be freaking out if a teacher, player, or Umpire did the same thing?

If your kid failed a math test and in front of the entire class the teacher called him an F-ing idiot and then screamed in his face (Spit and possibly tobacco juice landing on son's nose) that he should kick him out of HIS math department for such a *#@ performance and then threw the math book at him - would that be okay?

As adults, in all environments we are responsible for setting an example. The problem is that swearing has become so commonplace that young adults think it's okay and that is going to lead to their kids at 3 yelling to get their f ing diapers changed at their parents!

Swearing needs to stop in common communication. Yes, in music too. The hill is so steep it's a little depressing to think it can ever be reset but those of us who care must try rather then ignore it.

Yes really....perfect example. I would raise the roof if that happened.

Like I said about Augie Garrido, can you unload on co workers/employees the same way? NO!!! Why do we allow it in sports? If I had a boss treat me that way and got it on tape, I'd be "retired" living off the settlement I received. Yet that's all over the internet with no problems. How can that be?

Last point, do these coaches not know the kids just tune them out and have no idea why they are screaming profanities? Kids just stop listening to that ****.

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Originally posted by YesReally:

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I believe the Coach should be held to the same standard as anyone else. The same as a teacher, an Umpire, or a player.
You can be a great coach without being an idiot. Why in the world do we give the coach a free pass when we'd be freaking out if a teacher, player, or Umpire did the same thing?

If your kid failed a math test and in front of the entire class the teacher called him an F-ing idiot and then screamed in his face (Spit and possibly tobacco juice landing on son's nose) that he should kick him out of HIS math department for such a *#@ performance and then threw the math book at him - would that be okay?

While I agree and also applaud this position, I think it is important to recognize that there are a few degrees of separation between the HS classroom and the HS ball field. Kids are required to go to school and class. Participation in HS sports is an optional after-school (or before) activity that is supposed to offer at least some degree of relief from the daily grind and strict rules of school. Most kids choose to play because it's a good way to hang out with friends or because it is an outlet to do something they like/love to do instead of something they have to do. Of course, there is structure and there are still guidelines, which vary, but it is generally a bit looser than the classroom in some aspects. That is not to say that it would ever be OK for a coach to call a kid an "F-ing idiot". But, certainly, there are good coaches who effectively use, shall I say, "raising their voices" out on the fields when that would be something not tolerated in a classroom.

I was watching a ballgame the other day and had a teacher come up to me and address some concerns about the academic efforts of one of our players. She's a big baseball fan and wanted to make sure he stayed eligible. I found it very interesting that the ball field setting added quite a bit of color to her language. I know she is a great teacher and keeps things clean in the classroom. But, something about being out on the field... she was quite eloquent and fluid in her new language

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Originally posted by cabbagedad:
certainly, there are good coaches who effectively use, shall I say, "raising their voices" out on the fields when that would be something not tolerated in a classroom.

Would it be tolerated in the stands?